The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[Fervent]

I'd consider that to be one of the many ways of avoiding a direct evaluation of the merits of Sola Scriptura.

And I'd consider not addressing that issue to be failing to actually evaluate the doctrine and instead simply trying to beg the question.

 

[Albion]

And I'd consider not addressing that issue to be failing to actually evaluate the doctrine and instead simply trying to beg the question.

That's unfortunate since it seems clear enough that there is a difference between what something is or stands for...and how some people use it.

I cannot imagine how this can be so elusive a fact.

If, for example, I own a snowblower that someone thinks is a lawnmower, and when he tries to mow his yard with it finds that it does a poor job of cutting grass...this doesn't mean that I had a defective snowblower! When used on snow, which was its purpose, it works quite well.

 

[Fervent]

That's unfortunate since it seems clear enough that there is a difference between what something is or stands for...and how some people use it.

I cannot imagine how this can be so elusive a fact.

If, for example, I own a snowblower that someone thinks is a lawnmower, and when he tries to mow his yard with it finds that it does a poor job of cutting grass...this doesn't mean that I had a defective snowblower! When used on snow, which was its purpose, it works quite well.

With doctrine application and definition largely run together since we're dealing with an abstract concept. Certainly, properly understood Sola Scriptura is an excellent measure for the faith. Unfortunately, since there is a wide range of understandings as to what it means leads to broader error especially when we make it a hill to die on. So again, it's not that the doctrine itself is necessarily deficient but that its proper usage is limited and it is far more often used to defend a pathological individualism that denies the authority of inferior but necessary authorities such as historic precedence and hermeneutical consistency. So what I am saying is not that there is not a place for sola scriptura, but that the doctrine must be qualified and its applicability is often overstated.

 

[Fervent]

... I agree, which is why I tend to be (more or less) in the Prima Scriptura vein of thought rather than in one of the various Sola Scriptura veins.

At the same time, I rather hate duking it out with my brethren over this issue.

I think you and I are pretty similar, my position can be described by both sola and prima depending on how those are defined. Lesser authorities in my view are auxillary and complementary, but Scripture alone is infallible.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you and I are pretty similar, my position can be described by both sola and prima depending on how those are defined. Lesser authorities in my view are auxillary and complementary, but Scripture alone is infallible.

That's a good way to approach it. And I think what is held in common among all of is an essential respect for 1st century Apostolic authority.

 

[FredVB]

The Bible scriptures have primacy of authority, that of God's word, for us, while our lives still have more for our decisions that we need to take into account, and the Bible does not dismiss that either.

I don't feel holy because of some law I obey and never say that, just as I don't do other things among all the false allegations. My righteousness is just in Christ, as all actual believers understand.

I would still mention this position at times when there are comments in threads I respond in where posts touch on that subject. I have enough information to keep going with it. And I still call out where I see verses being shown disregarding context, as was being persistently done here. Jesus Christ who was critical of changing commandments was not in the same scene declaring change of commandments from him. That is reckless interpretation. His declaration then was just that what was already accepted as food was not unclean for lack of ritual observances such as ritual washing. Otherwise you or I might eat babies. But other things God said matters.

I have a lot of information on animals in the industry, and know already you have nothing to show of humane treatment to animals in the animal agriculture industry, I just can't show how it is not humane treatment without my posts being deleted, as that has happened, and I won't post those things anymore. But I KNOW about the treatment. Genesis 9 was not permitting that, and Proverbs 12:10 really does not justify our demand for products from the industry with that treatment to animals.

And the Romans passage is about those who were bothered about involvement of believers with idolatry. Admittedly that would bother me too. But the application you have to anyone not having products from animals is another interpretation disregarding context. There are many such verses I see applied ignoring context that disproves the interpretations.

I started wanting to talk about this.

I would not say that scripture alone is the rule of faith for us. Faith is really personal and it is in relationship with Christ and with Yahweh through Christ. Yet in the development of the relationship with spiritual growth that believers should have, which would show, the primacy of the scriptures, which does really have basis, should form, and what is believed have basis in scriptures, while our Christian faith is not in a vacuum and we should see how what things are said in the Bible apply to the reality around us and in our world.

Where is that evidence that early believers were all still involved in animal sacrifices? I would show it was really otherwise.

Personal faith which has those in repentance coming to Christ through whom they are reconciled to God and coming to trust the Bible for the word of God to them are both important, and it is spiritual deprivation to not have either one or the other. Relationship with God is truly important and it is indispensable to a believer's life, truth that is needed is with having the Bible to go to.

Being fully compassionate beyond other people, Christ was not eating flesh of killed animals. Many followers then after that observed to not eat any flesh of animals, and there really was the tradition passed down that they learned this from Christ their Lord who did not eat of that, while this was still not a requirement for coming to saving faith which is with repentance. It is known from documents that there were apostles, and James the brother of Christ, who avoided having meat. Temple was still attended, which could be done without sacrifices, and there were sacrifices or offerings permitted without those being animals, as well.

So though early believers did not continue with sacrificing animals, which they were not called to do, it is important that personal faith has any in repentance coming to Christ through whom they are reconciled to God and coming to trust the Bible for the word of God to them, and it is spiritual deprivation to not have either one or the other, relationship with God is truly important. What is shown for us in the Bible should then have priority, it would not be with disregarding passages, in their context. And our circumstances involve us and God's word to us is not in a vacuum, it is for us in our responses to circumstances in our world now.

According to the Bible, there is nothing wrong with eating meat. If you don't want to eat meat or any other animal parts then do so. It's not appropriate to judge others because of your dietary preference.

Romans 14:1-3, "Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions. One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not despise the one who does not, and the one who abstains must not judge the one who eats everything, for God has accepted him." NET v2.1

Your words: What is shown for us in the Bible should then have priority!

Who is one who is jumping in to argue about eating meat? I repeat as I have said: I never was making judgment and you do not have anything to quote from me showing there was judgment from me. I just show what I know there is to show. Yet you show judgment, applying verses to call another specific person, in this case the one you speak with, weak. That is a judgment, and moreover, it is using a scripture passage contrary to what it was meaning. It was in context about those believers who being sensitive to avoiding involvement with idolatry who would stumble and sin by seeing others among believers they fellowshipped with having food that was likely involved in idolatrous ritual. Paul even said he would no longer eat meat for their sake. None of that applies to you having an argument and throwing the label weak brother out at who you are speaking with. That is you being judgmental, and the quote is right there showing it.

I was not faulting any who still eat meat. Yet the actual issues I show, which are very real, are avoided in the argument against what was said and what was assumed to be said, and the points made are not addressed or considered. The verse saying God made animals for food for us is not in the Bible. The perfection of God's creation is shown in the beginning which is according to God's perfect will. Genesis 1:29-31 shows it is food from vegetation that is meant for us. I am not saying God's mind changes. Concession from God is not the same as God's mind changing. There was no industry of animal agriculture in Bible times. Proverbs 12:10 would prohibit treatment of animals that happen with that, and it is not right to support that. I can refer to the sites that show how bad it is. But I can't link to any of them as posts with that get removed, and I am not posting anything for having the post removed if I can help it. There is much better health for almost anyone of people generally to eat whole foods, avoiding what is processed stuff, from plants, and not from animals. Doctors show this and have saved lives with this way. Animal agriculture is bad for environments and the world with all the effect from that and use of much more resources. These things should be taken into account, but still they were avoided in arguing, with strawman argument used instead of dealing with what was actually said. Those are facts, without any judgment with them. See for yourself.

The Bible shows things for us, but with authority from that we should see how we could choose better in the world we are now in, where we make choices still, beyond what is specifically shown. We might know then to not be destructive to this earth with our choices, though that was one of the things people in general did not need to deal with in the times any of the Bible was being written.

 

[pescador]

The Bible scriptures have primacy of authority, that of God's word, for us, while our lives still have more for our decisions that we need to take into account, and the Bible does not dismiss that either.

Who is one who is jumping in to argue about eating meat? I repeat as I have said: I never was making judgment and you do not have anything to quote from me showing there was judgment from me. I just show what I know there is to show. Yet you show judgment, applying verses to call another specific person, in this case the one you speak with, weak. That is a judgment, and moreover, it is using a scripture passage contrary to what it was meaning. It was in context about those believers who being sensitive to avoiding involvement with idolatry who would stumble and sin by seeing others among believers they fellowshipped with having food that was likely involved in idolatrous ritual. Paul even said he would no longer eat meat for their sake. None of that applies to you having an argument and throwing the label weak brother out at who you are speaking with. That is you being judgmental, and the quote is right there showing it.

I was not faulting any who still eat meat. Yet the actual issues I show, which are very real, are avoided in the argument against what was said and what was assumed to be said, and the points made are not addressed or considered. The verse saying God made animals for food for us is not in the Bible. The perfection of God's creation is shown in the beginning which is according to God's perfect will. Genesis 1:29-31 shows it is food from vegetation that is meant for us. I am not saying God's mind changes. Concession from God is not the same as God's mind changing. There was no industry of animal agriculture in Bible times. Proverbs 12:10 would prohibit treatment of animals that happen with that, and it is not right to support that. I can refer to the sites that show how bad it is. But I can't link to any of them as posts with that get removed, and I am not posting anything for having the post removed if I can help it. There is much better health for almost anyone of people generally to eat whole foods, avoiding what is processed stuff, from plants, and not from animals. Doctors show this and have saved lives with this way. Animal agriculture is bad for environments and the world with all the effect from that and use of much more resources. These things should be taken into account, but still they were avoided in arguing, with strawman argument used instead of dealing with what was actually said. Those are facts, without any judgment with them. See for yourself.

The Bible shows things for us, but with authority from that we should see how we could choose better in the world we are now in, where we make choices still, beyond what is specifically shown. We might know then to not be destructive to this earth with our choices, though that was one of the things people in general did not need to deal with in the times any of the Bible was being written.

Right after the flood God said this to Noah: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Every living creature of the earth and every bird of the sky will be terrified of you. Everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea are under your authority." Genesis 9:1-3

And Jesus said this: "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.)" Mark 7:18-19

Clearly, vegetarianism is a choice made by some, which is fine. But it has no Scriptural basis.

 

[FredVB]

Right after the flood God said this to Noah: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Every living creature of the earth and every bird of the sky will be terrified of you. Everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea are under your authority." Genesis 9:1-3

So with using this verse that I already know, you are stating that you disagree with the statement I said that God never changes. That is what I see. You see blessing on terror coming on any, where I see curse in that. You claim permission in that but don't answer about all blood being removed first from meat, that if you don't do you are not being obedient to that at all. And you don't respond acknowledging scripture showing God's compassion to all, including other creatures.

And Jesus said this: "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.)" Mark 7:18-19

And you continue over and over using this passage completely out of context to suggest it says something it could not be saying according to the context. That is just too weak.

Clearly, vegetarianism is a choice made by some, which is fine. But it has no Scriptural basis.

That is just with ignoring passages yo u don't want to acknowledge, some of which I have already been showing.

The whole world is being damaged, and the destructiveness God hates, Revelation 11:18, is due to exploitation. Continuing the use of animals with our demands is not honoring God.

It May Be Uncomfortable, But We Need to Talk About It: The Animal Agriculture Industry and Zero Waste

Doctors have found we can prevent and reverse the leading chronic ailments. A whole-food, plant-based diet can prevent, halt, and even reverse heart disease and diabetes. Other diseases that are also positively impacted by this type of diet include: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, and overall mortality. Cancer is also significantly affected by this diet. In fact, the foods that make up this diet are the exact same foods that were recommended in the first "surviving cancer" dietary recommendations. There is also evidence that a plant-based diet may reduce the risk of diverticular disease, gallstones, rheumatoid arthritis, gout, and kidney disease. Furthermore, after switching to a plant-based diet, people routinely report experiencing or seeing in others improvements in a range of ailments, including osteoporosis, arthritis, headaches, acne, asthma, sexual dysfunction, reflux, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease, constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, dementia, Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, infertility, insomnia, and sleep apnea. They even find themselves experiencing fewer or less intense colds, viruses, and allergies. And, they reach their ideal weight with this.

When there are issues on which there are disagreements, it is well for us to realize these would not be about individuals so we don't need to remember individuals for holding disagreement against. Any discussion with anyone does not show everything about them and what of many things there would be agreement with.

 

[pescador]

So with using this verse that I already know, you are stating that you disagree with the statement I said that God never changes. That is what I see. You see blessing on terror coming on any, where I see curse in that. You claim permission in that but don't answer about all blood being removed first from meat, that if you don't do you are not being obedient to that at all. And you don't respond acknowledging scripture showing God's compassion to all, including other creatures.



And you continue over and over using this passage completely out of context to suggest it says something it could not be saying according to the context. That is just too weak.



That is just with ignoring passages yo u don't want to acknowledge, some of which I have already been showing.

The whole world is being damaged, and the destructiveness God hates, Revelation 11:18, is due to exploitation. Continuing the use of animals with our demands is not honoring God.

It May Be Uncomfortable, But We Need to Talk About It: The Animal Agriculture Industry and Zero Waste

Doctors have found we can prevent and reverse the leading chronic ailments. A whole-food, plant-based diet can prevent, halt, and even reverse heart disease and diabetes. Other diseases that are also positively impacted by this type of diet include: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, and overall mortality. Cancer is also significantly affected by this diet. In fact, the foods that make up this diet are the exact same foods that were recommended in the first "surviving cancer" dietary recommendations. There is also evidence that a plant-based diet may reduce the risk of diverticular disease, gallstones, rheumatoid arthritis, gout, and kidney disease. Furthermore, after switching to a plant-based diet, people routinely report experiencing or seeing in others improvements in a range of ailments, including osteoporosis, arthritis, headaches, acne, asthma, sexual dysfunction, reflux, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease, constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, dementia, Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, infertility, insomnia, and sleep apnea. They even find themselves experiencing fewer or less intense colds, viruses, and allergies. And, they reach their ideal weight with this.

When there are issues on which there are disagreements, it is well for us to realize these would not be about individuals so we don't need to remember individuals for holding disagreement against. Any discussion with anyone does not show everything about them and what of many things there would be agreement with.

Since you are so strident and insulting, using phrases such as "You see blessing on terror coming on any" and "You claim permission in that but don't answer about..." and "you don't respond acknowledging scripture..." and "And you continue over and over using this passage completely out of context...", etc. I will not discuss this issue with you. I know what the Bible says, and I accept what God's Word clearly says over your manufactured claims to the contrary. I will continue to believe Him and enjoy eating the meat He has provided for human consumption.

 

[FredVB]

The Bible shows things for us, but with authority from that we should see how we could choose better in the world we are now in, where we make choices still, beyond what is specifically shown. When we neglect things we should come to do, it is with neglect of certain things said in scriptures, and those still need to be pointed out, even for those saying they are Bible believers. Because even they are missing things said in the Bible. Really, none of us know it all already, but it is not that we should presume others do not know some specific thing in the Bible that we might say. Faith is still to submit to God's word.

So with using this verse that I already know, you are stating that you disagree with the statement I said that God never changes. That is what I see. You see blessing on terror coming on any, where I see curse in that. You claim permission in that but don't answer about all blood being removed first from meat, that if you don't do you are not being obedient to that at all. And you don't respond acknowledging scripture showing God's compassion to all, including other creatures.

And you continue over and over using this passage completely out of context to suggest it says something it could not be saying according to the context. That is just too weak.

That is just with ignoring passages yo u don't want to acknowledge, some of which I have already been showing.

The whole world is being damaged, and the destructiveness God hates, Revelation 11:18, is due to exploitation. Continuing the use of animals with our demands is not honoring God.

It May Be Uncomfortable, But We Need to Talk About It: The Animal Agriculture Industry and Zero Waste

Doctors have found we can prevent and reverse the leading chronic ailments. A whole-food, plant-based diet can prevent, halt, and even reverse heart disease and diabetes. Other diseases that are also positively impacted by this type of diet include: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, and overall mortality. Cancer is also significantly affected by this diet. In fact, the foods that make up this diet are the exact same foods that were recommended in the first "surviving cancer" dietary recommendations. There is also evidence that a plant-based diet may reduce the risk of diverticular disease, gallstones, rheumatoid arthritis, gout, and kidney disease. Furthermore, after switching to a plant-based diet, people routinely report experiencing or seeing in others improvements in a range of ailments, including osteoporosis, arthritis, headaches, acne, asthma, sexual dysfunction, reflux, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease, constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, dementia, Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, infertility, insomnia, and sleep apnea. They even find themselves experiencing fewer or less intense colds, viruses, and allergies. And, they reach their ideal weight with this.

When there are issues on which there are disagreements, it is well for us to realize these would not be about individuals so we don't need to remember individuals for holding disagreement against. Any discussion with anyone does not show everything about them and what of many things there would be agreement with.

Since you are so strident and insulting, using phrases such as "You see blessing on terror coming on any"

As you do by using a passage (without regard to other passages around that bearing on that) for your permission you claim with terror mentioned right in that passage you were using. There are many parts in the passages that are the context showing a lot of things were wrong, and not like the perfect world where God saw that everything was "very good", and so it is not showing to me that God "changed his mind", and you were not showing you agreed with me that God's mind does not change.

and "You claim permission in that but don't answer about..."

And you do not answer it, as I did ask, the permission in the Bible is meat being had must have the blood all removed already. You are just using the passage inappropriately saying you have permission from it for having any meat from animals.

and "you don't respond acknowledging scripture..."

And there are a number of passages for it, if I really wanted to do a study on it for preparing for posting here, from things I have seen and I have heard from the Bible, but just referring to Proverbs 12:10 that I mentioned says enough, for what we should not even need the Bible to show that our conscience could tell us, if we did not remain blind to issues that call for attention.

and "And you continue over and over using this passage completely out of context..."

I have called you on it from the beginning, your interpretation of what a passage must mean does not stand when not ignoring other things said right in the same chapter that is the context for the passage. That should have been addressed if you were just going to refer to the same passage again and again after I spoke about the context.

I will not discuss this issue with you.

You certainly can back out of the discussion, I would not say you can't, and you were saying you would before. When I speak of these things or anything related to them again, anywhere in the site, if you ever respond to those again to me I would call you on this history with answering and giving up previously when you don't prove anything. You don't have any argument for any of the points I actually made, and because you can't have any for that, you have argued with passages that are just with your interpretation with which you ignore the actual points I made, about real issues, including to our world, and our own health and wellbeing.

I know what the Bible says, and I accept what God's Word clearly says over your manufactured claims to the contrary. I will continue to believe Him and enjoy eating the meat He has provided for human consumption.

More inappropriate allegations here. I don't say you don't know what the Bible says. But each of us can discuss things from it. My points I make are not manufactured claims anyway, and you had nothing to show they were. Of course keep believing God, I endorse that and would that I and any others faithfully believe God still.

And I am not telling you anywhere you must stop eating meat. I was sharing information, and those points were not answered.

 

[fhansen]

The Rule of faith and practice
is not scripture alone

PART 1 (Contnued in part 2)

A correction to the “sola scriptura” teaching, which says “scripture ALONE”.

Now, at first glance some may think that I am teaching that scripture is not a rule of faith and practice. I am not quite saying this, I am saying that scripture is not the first primary rule of faith and practice, even though I would say it is the secondary rule. The primary rule of faith and practice is to live and walk and move in the power of the Spirit (Gal. 5:16, 25 Rom. 8:2,5,6,9-16 KJV), in Christ in the new creation (Gal. 6:15,16 KJV) where God dwells in all believers (1 Cor. 3:16, 1 John 4:15 KJV) and where he works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ (Heb. 13:20,21 Phil 2:13 KJV).

It is the anointing that teaches us all things, (1 John 2:27 KJV) and if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his (Romans 8:9) and if he does not have the Spirit he cannot know the things of God or the scriptures (1 Cor 2 KJV) . The scriptures were given by the Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16) and no man can even know the scriptures unless they are in the first rule which is to be in the Spirit (Romans 8:9 KJV). If any man have not the Spirit of Christ they are none of his (Romans 8:9 KJV). The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth (John 16:13 KJV). It is the grace of our Lord that is with our spirit (Philemon 1:25 KJV).

No man can even know the Son of God except the Father reveals him. This inner witness in our spirit is vital to knowing God and living in the spirit.

“no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.”(John 10:22 KJV)

So, for a man to say “I know who the Son of God is” by scripture "alone" without a spiritual revelation is not accurate. Yes, scripture testifies of the Son of God and Jesus work for salvation and the gospel is according to the scriptures and many prophecies and much more. However, the scriptures were given by the Spirit to the men who testified and who were led to write them. But to know who Jesus is as the Son of God is a revelation of the Father and to know the Father is a revelation of the Son.

It is not the scriptures that give an inner witness of themselves, but it is the Spirit that bears witness. The scriptures are able to help us as we have faith in Christ Jesus.

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”(Romans 8:16 KJV)

Christianity is new life the Spirit of Christ (2 Cor. 3:6, Gal 615,16, John 15.:1-6,2 Cor 13:5 KJV) And true worship is to worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:23 KJV). Unless Jesus is in us and we in him we can do nothing, as Jesus said,

“4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”(John 15:4,5 KJV)

As highly as I regard the holy scriptures and see them as the secondary rule. I cannot say that they are “alone” the only rule for believers. However, if a man is in Christ he will be led by the Spirit into all truth and this would include the scriptures of truth and the true believer who now is in the Spirit and the faith which is in Christ Jesus can understand the scriptures. We even see this in a favorite verse many quote to teach “sola scriptura”

“5 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”(2 Timothy 3:15,16 KJV)

Here we see that it is by faith in Christ Jesus that any can understand the scriptures. Again the first primary rule is the spirit and to live in faith in Christ.

Paul said

“11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”(1 Cor 2:11-14 KJV)

Yet today many think they can know the things of God without His immediate revelation and Spirit leading them to all truth. Or even if they acknowledge the Holy Spirit guiding them, they still say “sola” scriptura” or scripture alone. I wonder how a person thinks they can know anything of the Spirit unless they are born again and live and move in the spirit. Jesus said ,

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”(John 3:3 KJV)

The pharisees had scripture and studied it and could quote many things yet they did not know Jesus in front of them and they did not come to him to have life. They could not see spiritual things. But they could read scripture and study languages and try to understand with their natural carnal mind. They thought (like some today seem to imply,) that they had eternal life in the scriptures but Jesus said,

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. “(John 5:39 KJV)

Jesus also said they did not know the scriptures or the power of God (Matt. 22:29 KJV) even though they might have thought they did. They also did not have His word abiding in them

“And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.”(John 5:38 KJV)

The seed is the word of God sown in the hearts of all (Luke 8 Gal.3 1 John 3:9) and is near all (Acts 17 Romans 10: Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV), though not in them or in union with them until they receive him at salvation, this is a great attainment where they will be born again, born from above by the Spirit of God (John 6:63, 1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18 KJV). This inward life is the first rule of Christianity and by which we understand the scriptures. The anointing teaches us all things, and yes all things would include the secondary witness or rule of the scriptures as we are taught by the Spirit.

“ But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”(1 John 2:27 KJV)

Jesus one time opened the believers hearts to understand the scriptures. This is still the way men understand scripture

“ And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself....32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”(Luke 24:27,32 KJV)

Many today try to take out the spiritual aspects of Christianity and reduce it to a intellectual attainment or carnal reasoning with the wisdom of men and excellency of speech. Paul as led by the Spirit rebuked such thinking

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God....4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God... we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,...But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”(1 Cor 2:1,4-6, 11-14 KJV)


The Primary Rule

To clarify what this first rule is, here are some scriptures.

“15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”(Galatians 6:15,16 KJV)

The word “rule” means - “sphere, standard, rod, boundary.”

To live in Christ as a new creation is to live in spiritual life with Jesus Christ in you and the spirit of God leading you and teaching you all things. This is the primary rule, as Paul said. We are to walk according to this rule. And except a man be born again he cannot see spiritually anything of the kingdom.

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14 KJV)

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”(John 16:13 KJV)

But some seem to say regardless of this,

“We can know all about the things of God by our study of Greek and Hebrew and with our human wisdom in reading other commentaries and with all our human intellect and books."

The issue they deal with, is that God said they cannot know the things of God unless they are spiritual ( 1 Cor 2 etc) . So again how do they think to understand spiritual scripture if they are not being led by the Spirit of God which is the first primary rule. If they can admit this then they should not use the expression “sola scriptura” or scripture ALONE.

Jesus also showed a difference of the Old Testament worship and the worship God seeks after.

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”(John 4:23,24 KJV).

PART 1 (Contnued in part 2 and 3)

People who claim to be led by the Spirit disagree on siginficant matters of the faith all day long with others making the same claim.

 

[FredVB]

God permits a lot of things but because of all the sin this is a very cursed world, and we are not living according to God's perfect will, and won't grow in godliness without approaching God's perfect will for us.

Personal faith which has those in repentance coming to Christ through whom they are reconciled to God and coming to trust the Bible for the word of God to them are both important, and it is spiritual deprivation to not have either one or the other. Relationship with God is truly important and it is indispensable to a believer's life, truth that is needed is with having the Bible to go to.

The whole world is being damaged, due to exploitation, and that is encouraged by the materialism of all who still are part of civilization and would continue to fit in it, while civilization has always been exploitative and destructiveness to the world has grown from that.

The animals could have worthwhile lives, while animals among the wildlife are losing their habitats with diminishing natural environments from expanding use of land for animal agriculture, those which are among the millions and the billions in animal agricultural industry are in miserable conditions for just a small portion of what could be a natural lifespan for them and go through torturous processes while mere babes just overgrown to be prepared and slaughtered, and the birds used in the industry have no regulation for protection and no limit to the suffering they are put through.

Our change to vegan living can be for the healthier way, with what we eat being whole foods, in what is better for us, that most miss on, and won't believe, while remaining in ignorance about it. I don't know why others will not open up to the information about this, when I was willingly looking at it, and not ever arguing against any of it with such things I see others say now.

 

[FredVB]

I would not say that scripture alone is the rule of faith for us. Faith is really personal and it is in relationship with Christ and with Yahweh through Christ. Yet in the development of the relationship with spiritual growth that believers should have, which would show, the primacy of the scriptures, which does really have basis, should form, and what is believed have basis in scriptures, while our Christian faith is not in a vacuum and we should see how what things are said in the Bible apply to the reality around us and in our world.

God said, "I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food." Yahweh God said "It is not good that man should live alone." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air." But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh. Then God spoke to Noah, saying, "Go out of the ark, you, your wife, your sons and their wives. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and offered burnt offerings. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said, "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and all the fish of the sea. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you, I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its blood. For your lifeblood I will require a reckoning." It pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They wrote this letter: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from what was strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keep yourselves from these, you will do well." The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, because the creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." "God will wipe away every tear, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

 

[FredVB]

Godliness we should grow in is just with response in faith, and we see then there is scripture for it that is not seen without faith and growing in godliness with compassion and love that is not being limited.

We with being human are indeed made in the image of God, some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, certainly more than those who will only live in an ungodly way. This does not show at all that all animals are without spirit, and indeed there is scripture showing otherwise, and it does not show that God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does. Animals, even those that are by nature predators, show plenty of evidence, along with being social creatures, that they make choices that we would see as involving morality. We don't have a way of asking any of them about it. But think of such famous videos made available, as the cat that fought off a vicious dog attack likely saving the life of the little child in the family that the cat lived with. There are many anecdotes of animals rescuing people with their action. While such saving action may be seen as selective, we ourselves as humans naturally make choices on a tribal level, caring for protection of those in our own household first, it is a higher level, to which some people don't come, to save others not in their own sphere. Sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is generally not understood well, with what is thought reflecting sacrifice that God hated as those performing them had become so callous, and sacrifice was just something to be done. The meaning of sin being so horrible, and a cost for it indicated with sacrifice of a precious life of an innocent animal of perfect breed, for which there should be awareness, and foreshadowing the effective sacrifice of Christ, was lost when it shouldn't be. This does not show they are without spirit. It is shown that animals are with a spirit. The vision for the future of animals on God's holy mountain without any harm or killing shows this with the relief creation groans for finally coming. It is horrible what is done to billions and billions of animals for humanity going on all the time. If we think there is no future of life with peace and tranquility for them, and would still have it go on, with our choices involving that, we are worse, we would be monsters with that. We have no realistic basis to claim moral superiority. We as humans are sinful and need salvation from sin, animals are innocent, many suffering for us and what we do. God is showing care for animals.

 

[FredVB]

I can understand many won't just agree with perspectives I have. Yet I can speak of those. Jesus Christ showed he was fully compassionate beyond other people. And Jesus brought instruction for his followers, that concludes, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. That is not meaning perfect in comparison to the heavenly Father, for no creature can be with that perfection. Jesus does not call for what is impossible for us. It is a because of that do this construction. Because God is perfect, as God is, then we should live as well as we possibly can, which would be perfect for us, we would be living just the way we were meant to live. Of course what God's perfect will for us would matter then, and that is not including concessions from God for us, which God gives because people are all obstinate to God's perfect will. We can know of God's perfect will from the start.

 

[FredVB]

Revelation to us for our faith will agree with revelation to us through scriptures as written for what is said. One does not exclude the other. But there is more for us to se than what we see at first. What others tell us might help but they are not always right.

We are here to be caretakers in this world and that is the way we would be in the image of God. We really are not managing that.
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/19/case-closed-999-of-scientists-agree-climate-emergency-caused-by-humans

There are really a lot more serious issues to this world and in it.

We with being human are indeed made in the image of God, some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, certainly more than those who will only live in an ungodly way. There is nothing that shows God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does. The vision for the future of animals on God's holy mountain without any harm or killing shows this with the relief creation groans for finally coming. It is horrible what is done to billions and billions of animals for humanity going on all the time. If we think there is no future of life with peace and tranquility for them, and would still have it go on, with our choices involving that, we are worse, we would be monsters with that. We have no realistic basis to claim moral superiority. We as humans are sinful and need salvation from sin, animals are innocent, many suffering for us and what we do. God is showing care for animals.

 

[pescador]

Revelation to us for our faith will agree with revelation to us through scriptures as written for what is said. One does not exclude the other. But there is more for us to se than what we see at first. What others tell us might help but they are not always right.

We are here to be caretakers in this world and that is the way we would be in the image of God. We really are not managing that.
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/19/case-closed-999-of-scientists-agree-climate-emergency-caused-by-humans

There are really a lot more serious issues to this world and in it.

We with being human are indeed made in the image of God, some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, certainly more than those who will only live in an ungodly way. There is nothing that shows God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does. The vision for the future of animals on God's holy mountain without any harm or killing shows this with the relief creation groans for finally coming. It is horrible what is done to billions and billions of animals for humanity going on all the time. If we think there is no future of life with peace and tranquility for them, and would still have it go on, with our choices involving that, we are worse, we would be monsters with that. We have no realistic basis to claim moral superiority. We as humans are sinful and need salvation from sin, animals are innocent, many suffering for us and what we do. God is showing care for animals.

So why did God say to Noah and his sons, after the flood when all evil people were destroyed, that it was just fine to eat whatever they wanted to eat?

Genesis 9:1-3, "Then God blessed [righteous] Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Every living creature of the earth and every bird of the sky will be terrified of you. Everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea are under your authority. You may eat any moving thing that lives. As I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

It's fine if you want to eat nothing but plants and seeds, but it's false to think that is a rule from God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

People who claim to be led by the Spirit disagree on siginficant matters of the faith all day long with others making the same claim.

All false doctrine comes from those who are not led by the Spirit either in the original understanding or the interpretation.

 

[Fidelibus]

All false doctrine comes from those who are not led by the Spirit either in the original understanding or the interpretation.

Who then makes the determinination on who is or is not being led by the Holy Spirit, and by who's or what authority can they do so?

 

[fhansen]

All false doctrine comes from those who are not led by the Spirit either in the original understanding or the interpretation.

Exactly. Anyway, edification is still always possible, for those with ears to hear:

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.