The right view of sin...

[Neogaia777]

Sin is that which separates us from God, yes the product of sin separates but the sin itself does too as it is by definition that which is in conflict with the desires of God. If i do something in conflict of God's desires than regardless what it is, or how noble it may seem, it is a sin.

Samuel told the the elders of Bethlehem that he was there to sacrifice a heifer, he even brought one with him. Although this was not untrue it was never his plan it was his alibi as the real reason why he was there was to commit an act of treason. So Samuel lied so he wouldn't be killed for a capital crime, to which he was guilty of, but he did so under divine authority. The act of lying itself can have divine purpose as its evident in 1 Sam 16. This certainly isn't licence to sin but the real spirit of the law as revealed by Jesus is to give glory to God in all things we do and love your neighbour as yourself. If these are truly kept then there can never be scandal or corruption, it is only God and the spirit behind it should be self evident.

This (post in this thread) might be helpful maybe: Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

God Bless!

 

[LightLoveHope]

As we are talking about sin, many theologians believe in inherited sin or original sin.
I have wondered about this for many years.
Some hold that sexual desire is the root of original sin, and certainly passion can be an all consuming emotion, but for sex to be sin itself, then no union or the creation of life could be blessed by God.

For me original sin is being born out of communion with God, which is a kind of rebellion, independence from love, which is a sinful act in itself.

What confuses the subject is children of believers are deemed purified by the believing parent until the age of responsibility. So sin in its more legal meaning does not full come into effect before the age of responsibility, yet the actual constituents are present all along

One way of putting this is without open communion with the Lord, we will always self justify and corrupt ourselves so sinful actions become acceptable as revenge or putting things even, or taking from those who do not deserve it etc. Deeper still our lack of sensitivity in our hearts, mean we will not be aware of the effects we are having on others, so our sinful actions will continue as if nothing has happened.

Our innate independence and desire to be self sufficient, will also push away love and what God is offering or even advising us on the best ways to live.

John the Baptist was the only person other than Jesus, who was born with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he would be the least in the Kingdom because of this, because he did not sacrifice himself to enter the kingdom.

I used to wonder at this boundary, from death to life, until I saw it is the hardest thing anyone can ever do, because it is changing Kingdoms, moving from this world to the next.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Let us just hope that yours and others like you's motivations and reasons behind making this distinction are really very truly truly righteous, just, holy, and truly pure and true...

I hope it is, cause I think you and those like you are on dangerous ground with it...

God Bless!

I don't remember what you believe, sorry, so based on my belief, what is yours regarding sin?

Here are some questions I've encountered on the forums that I take issue with (I've emphasized the question):

1. Do you believe our sins are merely covered by the blood of Jesus like with bulls and goats, but remain to the end, or are they taken away and forgotten?

2. Is all sin "willful" and "known" to us before we commit them? Such as in "sin is sin." (There is no such thing as unintentional sin)

3. Jesus blood takes away sins as we willingly commit them. ("Past, present and future")

4. Sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21 are done by Christians, and "not inheriting the kingdom of God" merely means loss of rewards.

5. Obedience is a "work" and not required in believing in Jesus.

6. 1 John 1:6 is a saved person.

7. 1 John 1:8 is a saved person.

8. 1 John 1:10 is a saved person.

9. Romans 7:14-23 is a saved person.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't remember what you believe, sorry, so based on my belief, what is yours regarding sin?

Here are some questions I've encountered on the forums that I take issue with (I've emphasized the question):

1. Do you believe our sins are merely covered by the blood of Jesus like with bulls and goats, but remain to the end, or are they taken away and forgotten?

Upon confession of known sins regularly, (if they are regularly committed), it is, or the guilt of it, is taken away and the sin forgotten (by God) and he does not hold it against you, "in most cases"... I cannot say "all" in reference to God with sin, cause only he knows the heart, and this (sin) is a thing that I think only he can judge "in every single case" in the end...

2. Is all sin "willful"...?

Yes, it is...

and "known" to us before we commit them?

No, it is not... not "all of it" but "some of it", most of the time, in most cases...

Such as in "sin is sin." (There is no such thing as unintentional sin)

Willful yes, (were born rebels and rebellious by our nature in a fallen world) don't know about intentional though...?

3. Jesus blood takes away sins as we willingly commit them. ("Past, present and future")

It will, "if some of the only most basic, very simple conditions on our part are met" (partially described in my response in/to question #1)

Let me ask you a question: Would you agree that overcoming sin is a "process" and takes "time"...? Y/N...?

4. Sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21 are done by Christians, and "not inheriting the kingdom of God" merely means loss of rewards.

I believe overcoming sin is a process that takes "time", and only God can be the judge of others, or another's time, and/or times, or "seasons" of a person's life, or whatever...

5. Obedience is a "work" and not required in believing in Jesus.

Not sure what you mean here...? If you mean "absolutely nothing is required on our part", then no, I do not believe that... I do, however believe that the "conditions" (for forgiveness of sins) are very basic and simple and easy to know and/or do or be and/or believe (in)... (see answer to question #3 & #1) (Again, maybe not in every case (is this so easy) (which God would know and would and will take into account) but in "most" of them, most cases, and as for the other cases, God only knows and can judge, I believe)...

6. 1 John 1:6 is a saved person.

There may be a period or periods of time that one might be meant to walk in darkness for awhile... Again, overcoming sin is a sometimes, "lifelong" process, for some and I believe for most and in most cases...

7. 1 John 1:8 is a saved person.

There is/are periods of time, or time and or a season, or seasons, for "all things", including walking in darkness, or any kind of sin or evil, including one saying they have no sin or evil and or denying the sin and or evil in them past, present and/or future... It is a "process" that may include some making forward progress sometimes, and backsliding or falling back sometimes, then maybe making some more forward progress again sometimes, ect, ect, so on and so forth, and this can "more or less" either way at different times, till we come to our completion or perfection God meant for us, each one individually of course...

8. 1 John 1:10 is a saved person.

I think I answered this already...?

9. Romans 7:14-23 is a saved person.

Yes, I fully believe Paul was a saved person, yet not entirely sinless, which he knew and was honest about, for which he will get credit for I believe...

You do not believe Paul was a saved person...?

The danger here is in judging, judging when and where we should not judge, especially if it is for "impure" motivations and reasons...

I'll leave God to judge my, and everyone else's sin(s), cause he knows the heart, the process, every single condition and/or exception, ect, ect, so on and so forth...

IOW's only God knows all the "factors" in judging things like these, and is the one and only one who can judge them "perfectly" (and rightly and truly justly)...

I do want you to answer at least just this one question if you would:

"What are "your own", and what do you think would be "others" "reasons" (and/or motivations) for wanting to judge or discern sin in the/this manner that you are pursing (as less than or greater than, or "whatever"), and is it totally 100% pure (in either yours or another's case (in this))...? or is "not" so much...?

God Bless!

 

[1stcenturylady]

"What are "your own", and what do you think would be "others" "reasons" (and/or motivations) for wanting to judge or discern sin in the/this manner that you are pursing (as less than or greater than, or "whatever"), and is it totally 100% pure (in either yours or another's case (in this))...? or is "not" so much...?

I'm not sure what you mean by "my" judging. I try to believe what God believes, and teach what the apostles taught. Each must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

What I see in your answers is Reformation Theology. Is your pastor's background from one of the churches out of the Reformation? Do you believe in OSAS? They coined the phrase "past, present and future sins" which you used.

I ask this because they have a basic lack of recognizing the power of the Holy Spirit in us. You believe in time and overcoming one sin after another by ourselves. I imagine this is based on a difference in definition of the grace of God. Many, including Reformed, believe God's grace is "unmerited favor" when the correct definition is just "favor." In other words, seeing us as helpless beings and overlooking our sins that we have no power over except self-will, whereas, according to what the apostles actually wrote, grace is the power of God placed in us by His Spirit. Here is an example of a basic "parallelism" in Semitic writing styles 101.

Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Grace = Power

I will answer my questions according to what I believe and why:

1. Do you believe our sins are merely covered by the blood of Jesus like with bulls and goats, but remain to the end, or are they taken away and forgotten?

I believe that when we repent from all sin (at the beginning) and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the baptism of the Holy Spirit), that we are born again (the old nature is killed and replaced with a brand new nature guided by the Spirit). Romans 6:2 we are dead to sin; Romans 8:9 we are NOT in the flesh (our old nature) but in the Spirit (our new nature), without which we do not belong to God. It is not a process, but instantaneous. What IS a "process" is growing in love and the rest of the fruit of the Spirit, which Jesus prunes John 15 to bear more and bigger fruit.

2. Is all sin "willful" and "known" to us before we commit them? Such as in "sin is sin." (There is no such thing as unintentional sin)

As I've said before, there is known sin which is "willful" and there are unknown sin which is "unintentional." The difference between known sin and unintentional sin is the difference between being unsaved and saved. An unsaved person does not have the Spirit of God indwelling them. The lusts of their flesh rule them, and head knowledge of the laws of God causes guilt and burden. In the Old Testament (which is our schoolmaster of how God sees sin) in Numbers 15:22-36 we see a comparison of "unintentional sin" and "willful/presumptuous sin". There was sacrifice for unintentional sins, but NO SACRIFICE for willful sin - they killed them. This is why Paul wrote Hebrews 10:26-39. Jesus took away all our willful sin, even to the crucifying of the flesh that constantly produced willful sin, and gave us a spirit that loves what God loves, and hates what God hates.

3. Jesus blood takes away sins as we willingly commit them. ("Past, present and future")

We still have free will and if we do not guard our hearts we are capable of committing willful sin. These are not automatically cleansed as when we walk in the Spirit. We must repent of those sins in order to unquench the Spirit that we deliberately quenched. And hopefully, God will grant us true repentance so we do not repeat those sins.

4. Sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21 are done by Christians, and "not inheriting the kingdom of God" merely means loss of rewards.

This is a question you didn't really answer regarding rewards or salvation. You just said it takes time. Time for what? To be saved? Or to be free from sin? What does it mean to "not inherit the Kingdom of God? To the Reformed it means merely a lack of reward, either in ministry or in heaven, but they are still going to heaven. To me, it means that those who practice these sins of the flesh are not saved at all. They do not have the Holy Spirit, and thus do not belong to God. You cannot work your way into overcoming sin by yourself. That is why the Spirit is given to us. He takes away the desire to commit these sins of the flesh and gives us grace/power to not sin, without which we are powerless to save ourselves. With our new nature we now naturally live righteously (no struggle). Whereas, in our old nature, it was a struggle (Romans 7).

5. Obedience is a "work" and not required in believing in Jesus.

When the Paul spoke of "not by works" he was referring to outward works of the law, circumcision and keeping holy days, and not the importance of obedience to Jesus' message of love.

6. 1 John 1:6 is a saved person.

7. 1 John 1:8 is a saved person.

8. 1 John 1:10 is a saved person.

Note that 6, 8 and 10 are separated by one verse each. This is a Semitic writing style of Jews. John was a Jew, a Hebrew and used this writing style, no matter what language he wrote the epistle in. This particular writing style is "contrasts." In this case, light vs. darkness. Those who numbered the verses got it correct, whereas in the third chapter when the same contrasts are used, some of the numbers were off, and it became every other thought. I'll show you with colors. Light - red; darkness - blue; chapter 3, Jesus - red; Satan - blue.

1 John 1:5-10

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 3:4-10

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

9. Romans 7:14-23 is a saved person.

Yes, Paul was saved, but he is not writing about himself, but mankind. If you will see in verse 9 he says,

"I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." The commandment came to mankind through Moses. Paul is writing in the "first person" - another Semitic writing style as we also see in 1 John 1:6:8 and 10. However, he was well versed in the law having been a Pharisee. Romans 7 is not about a Christian, but someone before Christ who only had the law that they had to keep with the old nature - extreme struggle. Chapter 7 is the conclusion of his teaching on the law from previous chapters. The law was the ministry of death - the law of sin and death. Now read chapter 8, the beginning of his teaching on the Spirit and how it is contrasted to having only the law.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (IOW free from the struggle associated with having to keep Romans 7 by only the old nature and no power from the Spirit.) 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh (Romans 7), but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death (Romans 7), but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be (struggle of Romans 7). 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Jesusisreal912]

Riddle for you.

Vivamus omnes deos sub sit potens obice
Religiones falsa
Homines solvente pretium consequencial
Mysteria intellexerunt
Deorum credentibus in proelia narrent
Quoniam sumus deorum
-DuoMundi

 

[DamianWarS]

This (post in this thread) might be helpful maybe: Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

God Bless!

It is always sinful to disobey God. If God desires it, regardless what it is, it is not sin. There is nothing else.

 

[DanJudge]

The right view of sin, is that sin is always wrong, and never right, and that is the right view of sin...

Now, before some of you start saying "Yeah, that's it, get those sinners" Don't be to hasty lest you forget that I am talking about people who would say that's "sins" as well... For all, ALL are sinners, and there is not exception, unless you absolutely 100% perfect, your a sinner, (hence some of my frustration with that crowd who would say that or say otherwise)...

Now, is this truly always the case, that all sin is never right and always wrong...? I must explain that I don't like those distinctions for there is/are always "exceptions"... Like someone lying to Nazi's who are hiding Jews in their house in Nazi Germany during WWII... That might be an exception... However, many try to take that or stretch that way, way to far, in and trying to justify everyone's sins, including and especially in most cases, their own, and that should not be so...

I am taking about "everyone" here, no one is excluded, whether those who would know they sin and try to justify it, or those who would completely deny their sin, and try hard to remain ignorant of it, and judge or come down on others, ect, for both are sinners and are in sin either way...

In conclusion, I would say that most of the time, a great majority of the time, almost all sin(s) are always wrong and never right, and that is the right view of sin...

Now, what do we do (about it)...? That is the question...?

I think we must all of us, get on the same page first, that we are all sinners and start from there, hopefully, "together"...

But after that...? I am open to suggestions at that/this point...

Comments...?

God Bless!

The right view of sin, is that sin is always wrong, and never right, and that is the right view of sin...

Now, before some of you start saying "Yeah, that's it, get those sinners" Don't be to hasty lest you forget that I am talking about people who would say that's "sins" as well... For all, ALL are sinners, and there is not exception, unless you absolutely 100% perfect, your a sinner, (hence some of my frustration with that crowd who would say that or say otherwise)...

Now, is this truly always the case, that all sin is never right and always wrong...? I must explain that I don't like those distinctions for there is/are always "exceptions"... Like someone lying to Nazi's who are hiding Jews in their house in Nazi Germany during WWII... That might be an exception... However, many try to take that or stretch that way, way to far, in and trying to justify everyone's sins, including and especially in most cases, their own, and that should not be so...

I am taking about "everyone" here, no one is excluded, whether those who would know they sin and try to justify it, or those who would completely deny their sin, and try hard to remain ignorant of it, and judge or come down on others, ect, for both are sinners and are in sin either way...

In conclusion, I would say that most of the time, a great majority of the time, almost all sin(s) are always wrong and never right, and that is the right view of sin...

Now, what do we do (about it)...? That is the question...?

I think we must all of us, get on the same page first, that we are all sinners and start from there, hopefully, "together"...

But after that...? I am open to suggestions at that/this point...

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[DanJudge]

Sin is the transgression of God's Laws
Peace Be With You

 

[Vicomte13]

unless you absolutely 100% perfect, your a sinner
...
I think we must all of us, get on the same page first, that we are all sinners and start from there, hopefully, "together"...

But after that...? I am open to suggestions at that/this point...

Comments...?

First comment: if you mean by "you" anybody who could read this writing of yours, sure - all people capable of reading this are sinners. That's true.

If by "you" you mean every human being that draws breath, no, that is not true. The mere state of human existence as a living, breathing being is not inherently sinful. Thus, the baptized baby, whose Original Sin has been washed away, is sinless. It has no inherited sin, and it has not committed any sins, nor will it for some time into the future.

So yes, anybody who can read our exchange, or could have read or discussed Paul's letter that said "all have sinned" - that's true. However, it is not true that every human being is a sinner. Tiny children are not sinners. They have not sinned, and they won't sin until they are capable of comprehending that they are doing something wrong, intentionally.

So, we can get on the same page if you agree that infants and small children are not sinners. We don't have to agree on Original Sin and Baptism that washes it away - that's a Catholic doctrine. If you reject Original Sin, that's fine as long as you don't insist that tiny babies are sinners - they absolutely are not.

 

[Neogaia777]

First comment: if you mean by "you" anybody who could read this writing of yours, sure - all people capable of reading this are sinners. That's true.

If by "you" you mean every human being that draws breath, no, that is not true. The mere state of human existence as a living, breathing being is not inherently sinful. Thus, the baptized baby, whose Original Sin has been washed away, is sinless. It has no inherited sin, and it has not committed any sins, nor will it for some time into the future.

So yes, anybody who can read our exchange, or could have read or discussed Paul's letter that said "all have sinned" - that's true. However, it is not true that every human being is a sinner. Tiny children are not sinners. They have not sinned, and they won't sin until they are capable of comprehending that they are doing something wrong, intentionally.

So, we can get on the same page if you agree that infants and small children are not sinners. We don't have to agree on Original Sin and Baptism that washes it away - that's a Catholic doctrine. If you reject Original Sin, that's fine as long as you don't insist that tiny babies are sinners - they absolutely are not.

Infants and small children usually realize that, looking back, when they get older, that their infantile behavior back then as a baby, small child, whatever, now seems like it was entirely sinful, (and that they sin now, now too)... Does that make infants and babies sinners...? I don't that I can answer that...?

And did Paul, even if say, he did not or was not sinning after being saved, or never sinned after he was saved, did he still consider himself a "sinner" (saved by Grace, through Faith, ect)...? Did he think that by his no longer sinning, that, "that", somehow, or anyhow, or in any way, "justified" him, or deemed him "worthy" that somehow by through his obedience he should somehow "earn" it, (his justification/salvation)...? Or did he think that was the wrong way to think...? That our righteousness is a filthy rags, or what...?

Did he still consider himself a "sinner"...? If so, how or why...? Or why would he wish to still consider himself a sinner...? But a saved sinner...?

Or was he talking past tense about being a sinner (and maybe still mourning it though greatly), (in lament about just his past only) (still feeling guilty about it, still haunted and tormented by it maybe), or what...?

God Bless!

 

[Vicomte13]

Infants and small children usually realize that, looking back, when they get older, that their infantile behavior back then as a baby, small child, whatever, now seems like it was entirely sinful, (and that they sin now, now too)... Does that make infants and babies sinners...? I don't that I can answer that...?

And did Paul, even if say, he did not or was not sinning after being saved, or never sinned after he was saved, did he still consider himself a "sinner" (saved by Grace, through Faith, ect)...? Did he think that by his no longer sinning, that, "that", somehow, or anyhow, or in any way, "justified" him, or deemed him "worthy" that somehow by through his obedience he should somehow "earn" it, (his justification/salvation)...? Or did he think that was the wrong way to think...? That our righteousness is a filthy rags, or what...?

Did he still consider himself a "sinner"...? If so, how or why...? Or why would he wish to still consider himself a sinner...? But a saved sinner...?

Or was he talking past tense about being a sinner (and maybe still mourning it though greatly), (in lament about just his past only) (still feeling guilty about it, still haunted and tormented by it maybe), or what...?

God Bless!

I don't know what Paul had going on in his mind, but I do need to return to the issue of babies and sin.

People, looking back, can't see their behavior as sinful when they were babies, because nobody can remember when s/he was a baby. The human brain cannot reach back that far (the memory circuits are not connected yet).

As an adult, we can look at a babies and ask ourselves if they are sinning.

This is a nice litmus test of religion. There is no thinking, directed will there, so no willful ability to know, or break, a moral precept.

A religious view that is trying to find sin in the behavior of babies, is crazy and fanatical. Why do they do that? Because they are trying to jam an observed reality of life into some sort of preformed word picture in an old document, and life doesn't fit.

If you don't know something is a sin and are not intentionally doing it, you are not committing a sin. Under the very complex ritual law of Israel, there were unknowing sins, breaking some taboo. We're not Jews. Under the New Contract, with Jesus, the sins are killing, lying, sexual immorality, "pharmakeia", cowardice, idolatry, being a "dog" and more generally being unloving.

That's it. Jesus' people are not superstitious people, walking around under a crushing burden of rules, seeing sin under every rock. Some subset of Christ's people are, unfortunately, afflicted with various mania and disordered thoughts which allow them to think that their own persnickety prejudices - the things they personally think are "wrong" - are sins.

There's not a lot of common ground between people like me and people like them. We can yell at each other across a Grand Canyon of difference, but that seems like a lot of energy, and I've got better things to do with my time.

If you're walking around crushed by guilt of sin all the time, you've missed the boat. You're forgiven all of your sins to the extent you forgive others theirs. THAT was Jesus' message on sin. You're going to sin - we all do - focusing on that is pointless - nobody really stops sinning until he stops breathing. But we are forgiven our sins to the extent we forgive others theirs. It's a lot easier to forgive other people their sins than it is to not sin.

So Christians should focus on THAT: the forgiving, which IS possible, as opposed to not sinning, which isn't possible, and which leads to all sorts of oppressive legalism and hypocritical behavior.

 

[1213]

...
Or was he talking past tense about being a sinner (and maybe still mourning it though greatly), (in lament about just his past only) (still feeling guilty about it, still haunted and tormented by it maybe),...

I think that is possible.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think that is possible.

But that should have been gone though, right...?

 

[1213]

But that should have been gone though, right...?

I don’t know any reason to think it should have gone entirely away. Perhaps it is good thing, if it remains, it reminds of the bad things and may help to live better way.