The Rider Of The White Horse.

[iamlamad]

From John's reference point, it was future and it is still future to us. But from John onwards the 70th week had to have been half completed by the Messiah at his first advent. For the 70th week prophesy to have not been already initiated by the Lord's first advent would have taken away from him his glorious incarnation and also taken away the important message of Daniel, in regards to 70 weeks are determined upon THY people and thy people, meant the Jerusalem that was being built up for the coming of Messiah the first time, that is for the Jews. As Jesus would say salvation has come to the Jews first. Again from John's time reference it was future and still is to us, yet it must have been initiated by Messiah's first advent, within the same context of the time that Jerusalem was after all being built up for him. The 70th week is the end of the 69th that started with Messiah, that is first advent and then ends with the triumphant second coming of Messiah as the rider of the white horse in Rev 19, that is if we are to entertain that the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 is the church.
Are you purposely trying to confuse? Either it is all future or it is not: it cannot be both. just stick with "it is future to us" and you will be right. Just know, if you cut an apple in half today, and eat one half, then take the half of an apple left two days later, and cut it in half, you have quarters, so the 1260 days would be IMPOSSIBLE. To divide 7 years and end up with 1260 days REQUIRES a full apple - I mean a full 7 years. if you try to divide 42 months in half, or 1260 days in half, it is impossible to still have 1260 days!



To deny that over half of the 70th week has already been fulfilled is to deny the Lord's first momentous advent.

NONE Of it is fulfilled, and that takes NOTHING away from what Jesus did: after all, Daniel said He would be cut off, but not for himself, and that is exactly what happened. But it did NOT happen in any part of the 70th week, which is still future.

So 69 1/2 weeks is already 1/2 of the 70th week being fulfilled by the first advent of Messiah from his 3.5 year ministry, to his crucifixion and then resurrection. The remaining half of the 70th week is the ministry of the church as the symbol of the two witnesses.

NOT! Daniel and God SEPARATED the 70th week for the end. Just picture a parentheses between the 69th week and the 70th - so far almost 2000 years. It was in the first part of the parentheses that Jesus was hung on a tree. ALL of the 70th week is future.

 

[Berean777]

NOT! Daniel and God SEPARATED the 70th week for the end. Just picture a parentheses between the 69th week and the 70th - so far almost 2000 years. It was in the first part of the parentheses that Jesus was hung on a tree. ALL of the 70th week is future.

Please show me how all of the 70th week is future.

 

[Berean777]

Daniel is told 70 weeks are determined upon they people, that is, the Jewish nation. Since building up of Jerusalem was chronologically measured by time onto the 69th week of Messiah coming, then if 69 1/2 weeks when Messiah was crucified is not in fact midway through the 70th week, then what you are saying, is that the prophecy to the Jewish nation up until now has been irrelevant to the Jewish nation, hmmmmm..........

This leaves us with the unanswered question, why did Messiah come 2000 years ago to the Jewish nation, if 70 weeks were not a determination upon the Jewish nation back then during the time of Messiah's arrival when Jerusalem was built up for him?

The determination or conditional ultimatum presented to the Jewish nation was to anoint the Most Holy in their hearts, by saying blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord. They failed the determination at the appointed 70th week and in addition Messiah made it clear to them that no further sign shall be given onto them accept the sign of Jonah, which is his resurrection. How could the sign of Jonah, not be part and parcel of the 70th week determination?

You see they failed the determination and for this reason the Kingdom was given over to the Gentile nations who would carry the cross of Christ as the 3rd, 6th, and 9th hour workmen. So the 70th week still falls within the determination for the Jewish nation, to anoint the Most Holy, in order for the other five conditions of Daniel's prophecy to be met ...

to finish the transgression,to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy

Since the Jewish nation failed the determination, the remaining half of the week was extended for them, so that they too can come along as the 11th hour workmen.

So for the last 2000 years the 70th week upon the Jewish nation still stands, until they also come on board and once they do, then the prophesy would be sealed/fulfilled and then the bridegroom will come.

It is the 70th week determination upon the Jewish nation that is keeping Messiah from coming the second time.

 

[Douggg]

There is a problem presented when you say that the 144,000 and the church are not there when AOD is revealed. The problem is the following.......

It's not AOD revealed, but setup.

It is obvious that Jesus is warning the believers to watch out and to flee from the AOD. why would this message be to the unbelievers or even the two witnesses when supposingly the church is not around, in order to heed the warning?

The message is to the Jews, who are not believers at that time, but are reacting to the shock of what will be taking place. The rapture will have already taken place, because of what it says in Luke 21:34-36. The Jews are not taken (except for the 144,000) because they are not yet Christians at that time. Once they have escaped Jerusalem, they will be able to figure out all of what happened and embrace Jesus as their messiah - having been preached to for over 3 years by the two witnesses, about Jesus, and against the person (the Antichrist) they had in error embraced as their messiah.

So this statement alone presents the real problem in your scenario. Again how could the gospel be preached if the church is not around?

No my scenario is fine. It isn't a problem. The gospel will be preached by persons around the world who will have been exposed to it for decades, but didn't act upon it, until after the rapture takes place. The church doesn't have to be here.

Knowing fully well that the AOD comes before the two witnesses and it is him who puts to death the two. Once they are put to death, there is no believer left to preach the gospel, when the judgement vials start pouring.

Therefore the rapture for the church and 144,000 must be post AOD.

If the rapture took place today and the church gone - people left behind would still be well aware of the gospel. The world has been saturated with knowledge of the gospel. And there are millions who know about the different end times teachings, but haven't acted to receive Jesus because they are not convinced. The Jews have been saturated with the gospel for 2000 years, plus they get a lot of exposure to the various Christian views of the end times, Antichrist, etc.

So the absence of the church is not a problem for knowledge of the gospel to continue even though the church is not here.

The AOD doesn't come until near the end of the two witnesses 1260 days, but that is a different argument.

 

[iamlamad]

Please show me how all of the 70th week is future.

It is VERY simple: we go by what is written, not by any kind of human reasoning. The exact midpoint of the 70th week is at the 7th trumpet.

So you tell us: WHAT would you call the time of the first 6 trumpets?

 

[Berean777]

It is VERY simple: we go by what is written, not by any kind of human reasoning. The exact midpoint of the 70th week is at the 7th trumpet.

So you tell us: WHAT would you call the time of the first 6 trumpets?

No trumpets were ever prophesied by Daniel. Your interpretation of the 7th trumpet somehow being connected to the exact midpoint of the 70th week, I find at odds with scripture in totality. Since it is Daniel who prophesied about the 70th week, we see that he connected it to the building up of Jerusalem for the coming of Messiah (first advent) and within the context of the determination upon the Jewish nation (Daniel's people). Determination, means to either conditionally pass or fail, that is what Daniel's people would need to do when Messiah came, that is to anoint the Most Holy in their hearts, by accepting him as their Messiah. We now know that Daniel's people as a nation failed the determination/test and therefore failed to recognise their own Messiah by not anointing him as the Most Holy. They failed to say blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord (Matthew 23:39), meant that they also did not comply with the other five conditions....

1) to finish transgression by accepting the Grace of God through his Messiah,
2) to put an end to sin by accepting the works of the cross at Calvary,
3) to atone for wickedness by being justified and reconciled to God through his only begotten Son,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness by being sanctified by the Holy Ghost poured in their hearts,
5) to seal up vision and prophecy of the 70th week, right there and then had they passed the determination of the most important condition below...........
6) to anoint the Most Holy by accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour. (Daniel 9:24)

In conclusion I see that your interpretation is equivocal at best and does not meet the requirements of the smoking gun to make that assertion unique and valid. What you are doing essentially is cutting the text from one author and pasting it within the different context of another author's text, who doesn't even mention the 70th week. Why John never refers to Daniel's 70th week, should be indicative of the fact that the 70th week has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet being exactly midpoint. The way I see it is as you have said a number of times, that it is a kind of human reasoning, when one makes an equivocal statement as you have done.

Now please don't take offence at what I have said thus far, but please do consider that the silence of Daniel in regards to the trumpets and the silence of John in his book of Revelation, in regards to the 70th week, is a surety that these have completely different contexts, each to the author's audience (recipients) that they have written to. What I mean by saying this, is that Daniel wrote the 70th week relevant to his audience, that is, the Jewish nation, whereas John wrote his trumpets relevant to his audience, that is, the New Covenant church, that is inclusive of Jews, Greeks and Gentiles. So the audience relevance criteria of Daniel's text and John's text is addressing their message to a completely different audience and in this regard audience relevance criteria must be complied with, in order to understand to whom Daniel's determination/test applies to.

Having said that, Daniel's 70th determination/test, does not apply to the New Testament church, but specifically to the Jewish nation as a whole. Why one might say that? Because those who are of Christ's church have already in Christ passed the determination/test that was meant for the Jewish nation and have in their hearts anointed the Most Holy, by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. So the determination is not applicable to the New Testament church who have already past the test, because they are in Christ, therefore they have met all those six conditions of Daniel 9:24.

 

[Berean777]

It's not AOD revealed, but setup.

The AOD is not revealed then setup, rather the other way around, that is, the AOD must be setup before being revealed in his time, otherwise it will be exposed before having the chance to be setup in the first place.

The message is to the Jews, who are not believers at that time, but are reacting to the shock of what will be taking place. The rapture will have already taken place, because of what it says in Luke 21:34-36. The Jews are not taken (except for the 144,000) because they are not yet Christians at that time. Once they have escaped Jerusalem, they will be able to figure out all of what happened and embrace Jesus as their messiah - having been preached to for over 3 years by the two witnesses, about Jesus, and against the person (the Antichrist) they had in error embraced as their messiah.

Why would Jesus address the unbelieving Jews by warning them, when he being fully God knew the future. In fact his message is also to all the new covenant believers, who would come to read his message, as we are doing right now and to heed the warning when AOD does manifest in the future after he is setup to be revealed in the first place. If the message from Jesus is not to today's and future believers, then AOD cannot be in the future, but AOD must have been in the past as Full Preterists would have us believe, so which one is it, is AOD in the past, during the unbelieving Jews that the message was addressed to coming to 70AD, within the generation of the 1st century that Jesus had said those words, or in the future to us, some 2000 years and counting?

If AOD is future, then Christ's message is to the believers, that is to us, who are of his church and if so, then we are here when AOD is revealed. Remembering that the AOD cannot be revealed until he is properly setup to be revealed in the first place. So the AOD is being secretly setup and when it is setup, only then will it be revealed, so that it won't be opposed. Think about it for a moment.

No my scenario is fine. It isn't a problem. The gospel will be preached by persons around the world who will have been exposed to it for decades, but didn't act upon it, until after the rapture takes place. The church doesn't have to be here.

Are you telling me after the world sees the execution of the two witnesses paraded without being buried, that unbelievers of who some may have taken part in the celebrations of the witnesses who were executed, have the fire in the belly to stick their heads out for the AOD to also make examples of them? Hardly.

If the rapture took place today and the church gone - people left behind would still be well aware of the gospel. The world has been saturated with knowledge of the gospel. And there are millions who know about the different end times teachings, but haven't acted to receive Jesus because they are not convinced. The Jews have been saturated with the gospel for 2000 years, plus they get a lot of exposure to the various Christian views of the end times, Antichrist, etc.

So the absence of the church is not a problem for knowledge of the gospel to continue even though the church is not here.

The AOD doesn't come until near the end of the two witnesses 1260 days, but that is a different argument.

Unbelievers cannot be saved without the church friend. If it were possible for Cornelius to save himself, as it was recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Chapter 10), then the Lord would not have gone to the extreme efforts to give Peter a dream, then tell him that two people are coming, that were sent by Cornelius and not to mention that Cornelius was also given a vision and instruction to send his two men in the first place. After all this is done, Peter had to physically go over to Cornelius's house and to preach the gospel, just like Phillip was taken by a chariot of fire to the Ethiopian Eunuch to preach the gospel and in both accounts after the apostle had preached the gospel, then and only then did the Holy Ghost come upon that person. So no believer can come to Christ even if they had second thoughts if the church is not around as a chain mail salvation vehicle of Christ, within the Great Commisison prerogative to connect others to Christ through his existing and living body, the believers. No body of believers (no church), therefore no salvation and nothing that can from nothing be connected to a body that doesn't exist in the world. This is where Jesus would say........

And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades (death) will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)

The church, as the Living body of Christ (Living Stones) must always be around to not only administer the Gospel, but to also connect others to the existing body of Christ. Howbeit that others can be joined to the body of Christ, if death has overtaken the church from the aspect of it being absent and the Great Commission being no more. Can unbelievers come to Christ without the body, even if they wanted to?

The answer in short is no, for it requires the body to be extended into the world as the symbol of the olive tree, in order for others to be grafted onto it. Just like a new cell to be joined to other cells, requires other healthy cells that are already there to accomodate for that new cell that emerges, otherwise there is no foundation for that new cell to exist in the first place. Same for the body of Christ, there cannot be other members joined, if the body is not there to accomodate for new members in the first place. It is like a chain mail (gospel) salvation message and the connection is to the Living Stones and not to a text that one remembers or changes their mind to finally believe the message that was once preached to them. You cannot have a membership to the church if the church doesn't exist in the first place, so unbelievers cannot revert to Christ on their own in the absence of Christ's body on earth.

In conclusion, the body of Christ must be here until the end end!

 

[iamlamad]

No trumpets were ever prophesied by Daniel. Your interpretation of the 7th trumpet somehow being connected to the exact midpoint of the 70th week, I find at odds with scripture in totality. Since it is Daniel who prophesied about the 70th week, we see that he connected it to the building up of Jerusalem for the coming of Messiah (first advent) and within the context of the determination upon the Jewish nation (Daniel's people). Determination, means to either conditionally pass or fail, that is what Daniel's people would need to do when Messiah came, that is to anoint the Most Holy in their hearts, by accepting him as their Messiah. We now know that Daniel's people as a nation failed the determination/test and therefore failed to recognise their own Messiah by not anointing him as the Most Holy. They failed to say blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord (Matthew 23:39), meant that they also did not comply with the other five conditions....

1) to finish transgression by accepting the Grace of God through his Messiah,
2) to put an end to sin by accepting the works of the cross at Calvary,
3) to atone for wickedness by being justified and reconciled to God through his only begotten Son,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness by being sanctified by the Holy Ghost poured in their hearts,
5) to seal up vision and prophecy of the 70th week, right there and then had they passed the determination of the most important condition below...........
6) to anoint the Most Holy by accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour. (Daniel 9:24)

In conclusion I see that your interpretation is equivocal at best and does not meet the requirements of the smoking gun to make that assertion unique and valid. What you are doing essentially is cutting the text from one author and pasting it within the different context of another author's text, who doesn't even mention the 70th week. Why John never refers to Daniel's 70th week, should be indicative of the fact that the 70th week has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet being exactly midpoint. The way I see it is as you have said a number of times, that it is a kind of human reasoning, when one makes an equivocal statement as you have done.

Now please don't take offence at what I have said thus far, but please do consider that the silence of Daniel in regards to the trumpets and the silence of John in his book of Revelation, in regards to the 70th week, is a surety that these have completely different contexts, each to the author's audience (recipients) that they have written to. What I mean by saying this, is that Daniel wrote the 70th week relevant to his audience, that is, the Jewish nation, whereas John wrote his trumpets relevant to his audience, that is, the New Covenant church, that is inclusive of Jews, Greeks and Gentiles. So the audience relevance criteria of Daniel's text and John's text is addressing their message to a completely different audience and in this regard audience relevance criteria must be complied with, in order to understand to whom Daniel's determination/test applies to.

Having said that, Daniel's 70th determination/test, does not apply to the New Testament church, but specifically to the Jewish nation as a whole. Why one might say that? Because those who are of Christ's church have already in Christ passed the determination/test that was meant for the Jewish nation and have in their hearts anointed the Most Holy, by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. So the determination is not applicable to the New Testament church who have already past the test, because they are in Christ, therefore they have met all those six conditions of Daniel 9:24.

Why is it you wish to argue over everything? Where did Daniel mention the "midpoint?" I guess you don't even know, so you want to disagree.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel is telling us that there is an event that will divide the 70th week into two equal halves: it is an event that will cause the sacrifice and oblation to CEASE. Do you know what will cause this?

2 Thes 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

When this man of sin enters the temple, the daily sacrifices must cease until the temple can be cleansed. But then, the man of sin turns into a beast and there will be no time to cleanse the temple. By the way, this is the event that Jesus called the "abomination."

Did you forget what Jesus said about it?

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So there will be an event that will divide the week into two halves (one reason there must be an ENTIRE WEEK) This event is called the abomination. When people SEE IT, Jesus said they must FLEE. Now, where do we see this fleeing?

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

WHY did she flee? Refer back to Matthew 24"15 & 16.

Now, work backwards from 12:6 to a "main-line" event of the seals, trumpets and vials. If we work backwards we will finally arrive at the 7th trumpet.

Did you forget that God sent me FIRST to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked?" Why would you doubt this will scriptural proof?

By the way, Daniel himself backs up his 7th week divided in half by mentioning the last half TWICE as the 3 1/2 years, or time, times and half of time. John backs this up with FIVE MORE mentions.

Make no mistake, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

The reason you find what I write as "odds with scripture" is a classic case of preconceived glasses.

 

[iamlamad]

If AOD is future, then Christ's message is to the believers, that is to us, who are of his church and if so, then we are here when AOD is revealed. Remembering that the AOD cannot be revealed until he is properly setup to be revealed in the first place. So the AOD is being secretly setup and when it is setup, only then will it be revealed, so that it won't be opposed. Think about it for a moment.
In conclusion, the body of Christ must be here until the end end!

You seem to think and write in riddles. Do WE live in Judea? Are WE suppose to flee? No, of course not. Jesus said those living in JUDEA. Jesus said that for the benefit of those living in JUDEA at the time of the abomination. You seem stuck on human reasoning. I told you that will not work. How much "setting up" will it take for the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is God? That can be done almost as fast as I can write it. What scripture tells us is that this cannot be done until the church is taken out of the way. Once we are gone, THEN the man of sin can be revealed. Of course the temple MUST exist before this can happen.

So no, human reasoning fails again. The church must be taken out BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

 

[iamlamad]

Are you telling me after the world sees the execution of the two witnesses paraded without being buried, that unbelievers of who some may have taken part in the celebrations of the witnesses who were executed, have the fire in the belly to stick their heads out for the AOD to also make examples of them? Hardly.

You don't understand the TIMING. The two witnesses are killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the week. That vial has an earthquake so strong, mountains and islands disappear. EARTH is devistated. And then will be the dread of Christ's coming. The days of GT will be over long before the 7th trumpet, for God has promised to SHORTEN those days. He will accomplish this with the vials. Jesus does not return at the 7th vial that ends the week, but some short time later.

 

[iamlamad]

Unbelievers cannot be saved without the church friend. If it were possible for Cornelius to save himself, as it was recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Chapter 10), then the Lord would not have gone to the extreme efforts to give Peter a dream, then tell him that two people are coming, that were sent by Cornelius and not to mention that Cornelius was also given a vision and instruction to send his two men in the first place. After all this is done, Peter had to physically go over to Cornelius's house and to preach the gospel, just like Phillip was taken by a chariot of fire to the Ethiopian Eunuch to preach the gospel and in both accounts after the apostle had preached the gospel, then and only then did the Holy Ghost come upon that person. So no believer can come to Christ even if they had second thoughts if the church is not around as a chain mail salvation vehicle of Christ, within the Great Commisison prerogative to connect others to Christ through his existing and living body, the believers. No body of believers (no church), therefore no salvation and nothing that can from nothing be connected to a body that doesn't exist in the world. This is where Jesus would say........

All I can say is WOW. Your human reasoning has led you down the wrong road! What is really necessary is the HOLY SPIRIT to draw people and the people have knowledge of what Jesus did for them. AFter the church is removed, God will have 144,000 to witness. After them God will have the two witnesses.

And in chapter 14, God sends ANGELS to preach the gospel. Your theory fails on all points.

 

[Berean777]

You seem to think and write in riddles. Do WE live in Judea? Are WE suppose to flee? No, of course not. Jesus said those living in JUDEA. Jesus said that for the benefit of those living in JUDEA at the time of the abomination. You seem stuck on human reasoning. I told you that will not work. How much "setting up" will it take for the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is God? That can be done almost as fast as I can write it. What scripture tells us is that this cannot be done until the church is taken out of the way. Once we are gone, THEN the man of sin can be revealed. Of course the temple MUST exist before this can happen.

So no, human reasoning fails again. The church must be taken out BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

The church must stay, that's what Jesus said, for nor death and nor hell shall prevail against his church. The church is the last man standing even to the end end!

 

[Berean777]

All I can say is WOW. Your human reasoning has led you down the wrong road! What is really necessary is the HOLY SPIRIT to draw people and the people have knowledge of what Jesus did for them. AFter the church is removed, God will have 144,000 to witness. After them God will have the two witnesses.

And in chapter 14, God sends ANGELS to preach the gospel. Your theory fails on all points.

Where does it say this. You seem to say this as if it is factual, in the absence of evidence. Why do you do that? Where is your evidence? I require evidence from multiple sources from scripture that directly say this without being equivalocal about it.

Definition of equivocal is below and let's try to not be ambiguous in how we try and interpret scripture, after all it is not human reasoning, dependent on what we think is going to happen, rather how scripture says it will happen. This means that there can be no conjecture about it from me or you.

1. 
   
   equivocal
   ɪˈkwɪvək(ə)l/
   adjective
   1. open to more than one interpretation; ambiguous.
      "the equivocal nature of her remarks"
      • (of a person) using ambiguous or evasive language.
        "he has always been equivocal about the meaning of his lyrics"
        synonyms: ambiguous, indefinite, non-committal, vague, indeterminate, imprecise, inexact, indistinct, inexplicit, blurry, hazy, foggy, nebulous, borderline; More
        
        
      • uncertain or questionable in nature.
        "the results of the investigation were equivocal"
        
        
        
        Show me the evidence please.

 

[Berean777]

You don't understand the TIMING. The two witnesses are killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the week. That vial has an earthquake so strong, mountains and islands disappear. EARTH is devistated. And then will be the dread of Christ's coming. The days of GT will be over long before the 7th trumpet, for God has promised to SHORTEN those days. He will accomplish this with the vials. Jesus does not return at the 7th vial that ends the week, but some short time later.

This in legal proceeding is called a conjecture friend. I don't do conjectures when it comes to scripture. What you are doing is picking and choosing what you want, without paying much attention to the grounded fundamental basis of the 70th week prophecy. You are diverting from the grounded fundamentals, because you choose to ignore them. Don't take what I say harshly, but that is the truth.

Show me in Daniel, the gospels, the epistles regarding the connections that you are making. You will not find it. Everything that you are drawing upon, is from your inference that can not be corroborated by other witnesses in scripture. What I mean is that you take John as one witnesses and the other becomes yourself. So in this regard let us do what you told me to do from previous posts, by not attaching our human reasoning to John's revelation. You therefore need another two witnesses from the Old Testament such as Daniel, the gospels, the epistles, in order to corroborate your implied inferences.

 

[Berean777]

You seem to think and write in riddles. Do WE live in Judea? Are WE suppose to flee? No, of course not. Jesus said those living in JUDEA. Jesus said that for the benefit of those living in JUDEA at the time of the abomination. You seem stuck on human reasoning. I told you that will not work. How much "setting up" will it take for the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is God? That can be done almost as fast as I can write it. What scripture tells us is that this cannot be done until the church is taken out of the way. Once we are gone, THEN the man of sin can be revealed. Of course the temple MUST exist before this can happen.

So no, human reasoning fails again. The church must be taken out BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

Christainity originated from Judea and Jesus foresaw the future of the AOD being setup there and so in this regard, he would warn the believers of what is going to come. This points to the fact that antichrist will come to make his base there, hence Jesus warns all believers regardless of where they are on planet earth, to avoid this place specifically during the end times. Why? Because the antichrist wil be based there. In order for the believers to not be ensnared by his trickery, he tells them flee from that place, especially the believers who happen to be in close proximity to that place.

So what other messages did Jesus say, to believers to warn them, not to just flee Judea, if they happen to be there, but to also those afar from Judea who may be tricked to gather where this antichrist will present himself, anywhere on planet earth for that matter.

Matthew 24:26
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

 

[Berean777]

Why is it you wish to argue over everything? Where did Daniel mention the "midpoint?" I guess you don't even know, so you want to disagree.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel is telling us that there is an event that will divide the 70th week into two equal halves: it is an event that will cause the sacrifice and oblation to CEASE. Do you know what will cause this?

Daniel is pointing to the event where the Messiah was cutoff in the middle of the 70th week, which as a result would make the old Jewish sacrificial system null and void, as God the Father is concerned and at the same time, those without Christ are the desolate in which the overspreading of abomination shall be poured upon them from God's wrath, because they reject his only begotten Son. So from the cross (sign of Jonah), where the Messiah consecrated his bride, until the consummation of his bride at his second coming as recorded in Rev 19, the sacrifices were ended by Jesus Christ, when he made atonement for the sins of all, once and for all, never to be repeated. So the basic fundementals of the 70th week are divided by the cross of Christ at Calvary and every sacrifice after the cross of Christ is considered an abomination before the Lord. As our timeline is divided by the timeline zero, so to is the timeline of Daniel's 70th week is divided by the cross of Christ. There can be no other interpretation as far as the totality of the context of Daniel's 70th week is concerned. Th 70th week is not AOD centred but Christ centred, which points squarely at Christ crucified for the sins of many. Look to the scriptures and the same central theme is repeated. Yet you choose to make the AOD your central focus, which was certainly not Daniel's focus. This again is proof that your inference of AOD being given prominence to Daniel's 70th week, begs belief.

2 Thes 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

When this man of sin enters the temple, the daily sacrifices must cease until the temple can be cleansed. But then, the man of sin turns into a beast and there will be no time to cleanse the temple. By the way, this is the event that Jesus called the "abomination."

You don't understand what you are presenting here. Again I need to point to you, the central theme of Christianity, that is, Christ crucified for the sins of many (1 Corinthians 1:23). You are taking Paul's epistles who repeatedly declared that he preached Christ crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) and somehow juxtapose his text, that was relevant to the Church to Daniel's text, that was relevant to his people, the Jewish nation, at the timeline of the 70th determination/test to accept the Messiah, by embracing the sign of Jonah (crucifixion).

So what exactly is the daily sacrifice after the middle of the 70th week as far as God the Father is concerned?

The sacrifice of his Son, that ended all previously performed sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. Scripture testifies of the 70th week being the ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices, yet you take Paul's text and somehow twist them to infer to the AOD, which is another equivocal conjecture on your part.

What does Paul say in his sermon in Hebrews, since you quote his testimony......

Hebrews 10:4:8-14
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The daily sacrifice that was performed by the levitical priesthood was replaced by the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross, that he has made perfect for those who are being made holy. Therefore it absolutely makes no sense for a prophecy coming from God that places prominence of a daily sacrifice promoted by AOD, after the sacrifice of his only begotten son. To even make prominent any sacrifice outside of the sacrifice of the only begotten son, by calling it THE (definite article) sacrifice, is considered heterodoxy at its core.

Did you forget what Jesus said about it?

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So there will be an event that will divide the week into two halves (one reason there must be an ENTIRE WEEK) This event is called the abomination. When people SEE IT, Jesus said they must FLEE. Now, where do we see this fleeing?

Show me where Daniel says that the AOD is the central focus of the 70th week and that the AOD is setup in the middle of the 70th week. You won't find it, because you are forcing Daniel's text to make that inference and by so doing, you are placing a definite article, which is the daily sacrifice as a prominent AOD sacrifice over and above the cross of Christ. By so doing you are negating the fact that the 70th week prophesy is specifically related to Messiah, therefore when you make the AOD the central focus instead, this completely destroys the context of the 70th week.

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

WHY did she flee? Refer back to Matthew 24"15 & 16.

You seem to jump from one context to another entirely different context and claim that they are all saying the same thing, when they say nothing of the sort. The verse above relates to the church, because if you read further, her seed are said to be those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17). Jesus would tell his disciples that they would be chased from city to city and be persecuted and killed for his sake (Matthew 23:34). After all if you read the acts of the apostles, you will discover how the 1st century church was chased from city to city and many of its apostles persecuted and killed. The wilderness is where the church spread into the four corners of the world to preach Christ, after all the central focus of the great Commisison is to preach the gospel and to make disciples of the world.

Now, work backwards from 12:6 to a "main-line" event of the seals, trumpets and vials. If we work backwards we will finally arrive at the 7th trumpet.

Did you forget that God sent me FIRST to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked?" Why would you doubt this will scriptural proof?

By the way, Daniel himself backs up his 7th week divided in half by mentioning the last half TWICE as the 3 1/2 years, or time, times and half of time. John backs this up with FIVE MORE mentions.

Make no mistake, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

The reason you find what I write as "odds with scripture" is a classic case of preconceived glasses.

This is all conjecture on your part friend. I really see many equivocal statements made left, right and centre by you, that completely destroys the context of the 70th week.

 

[ebedmelech]

The prophesy is for the entire week, however long it will take until the fullness of the Gentiles come, before the sons of Jacob as a nation decides in unity to come to Christ by faith (Romans 11:25). It is a prophesy in the making which is conditionally based upon Daniel's people's as a nation anointing the most Holy. This means that they need to as a Jewish nation, to accept Christ and to consider him as their Messiah (anointed one) as it is written.......



Did that happen during Christ's 3.5 year (first half of Daniel's 70th week) ministry on earth? No.

Did that happen after Christ's resurrection (sign of Jonah)? No

Has it happened thus far? No

The problem is you're saying that. The prophecy doesn't say that nor does Romans 11 say that. Paul explained this fact in Romans 9:27-29 quoting the prophet Isaiah:
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;
28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.”
29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity, We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.”

Do you understand what a remnant is? This idea that the entire nation of Israel will be saved is foreign to scripture! You have to keep all the prophets have said in view. Paul makes that point again in Romans 11:1-10

So the conditions require the Jewish nation to finally come to Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles, otherwise the last remaining half of Daniel's week will continue to be stretched until the Jewish nations does the following.......

finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy

Before the Jewish Nation could have conditionally finished their transgressions, made an end of sin, made atonement with God for their iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness through the pouring of the Holy Ghost in their hearts and to finally seal up the vision of the 70th week prophesy, they need the sixth condition, that is they need to anoint the Most Holy, by saying blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord.

Did the Jewish nation (Daniel's people's) do this? No.

So in this regard Daniel's 70th vision is still in the making and it requires the Jewish nation to come to Christ (Anoint the Most Holy in their hearts), in order for the closure of Daniel's 70th week, which was meant for them as a nation. That is why Jesus would say.....

Not at all. The seventy weeks of years are OVER. Why do you think Stephen rehearsed Israel's entire history of disobedience before they stoned him? It ended with the stoning of Stephen. It is from that point the gospel left Jerusalem and began to go to Judea, Samaria...then to the uttermost parts of the earth as Paul and Barnabus were called out by the Holy Spirit to take the gospel to the regions beyond Israel!

Christ compLe ted his work on the cross by suffering for the sins of all (Jews, Greeks and Gentiles), once and for all and he rallied people to carry their crosses and to follow him. So he took the Jewish nation to the watering hole to drink the Living Waters, but they refused to drink and in this respect there was little he can do for them at that time, accept to stretch out the last remaining half of Daniel's 70th week, by sending his two witnesses (the church) to continue to preach, until the time is right for them to finally come as the 11th hour workmen. That is why he would say the last (Gentiles) who were preached the gospel have now become the first because they anointed the Most Holy in their hearts and those who were first (Jewish nation) to be preached the gospel will be the last to anoint the Most Holy in their hearts.

This is so erroneous. How did 3000 Jews get saved at Pentecost? Why did Jesus tell the disciples to start in Jerusalem preaching the gospel?

Why does Paul state clearly if ANYONE is in Christ they are Abraham's seed? Do you see your error? Probably not.

Also I must correct you in how you erroneously placed a term consummation in the following verse that does not hold within the context of the entire proceeding and following versus....

You stated....



The term consummation of the ages does not make sense at all, in fact the context is....

Sin offering once and for all that is never going to be repeated again.

It is not consummation of the ages but the sin offering for all the ages from then and onwards for the forgiveness of sins.

So what does consummation mean?

Consummation is used in conjunction with a Jewish wedding, specifically pointing to the bride of Christ that was initially consecrated at Pentecost by the power from above and awaits consummation at his return where scripture writes.......

Once again...Look at the passage. The consummation is Christ first appearing to suffer for sins. That's the consummation. Notice the passage says CHRIST WAS MANIFESTED...which means MADE KNOWN. That was done when he was born into the world. The 70th week started at His baptism when God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, and pronounced Him.

When Christ appears a second time, it's to judge the world in righteousness. Do you understand what consummation means? If you did you'd know you haven't corrected me...you need to correct yourself.

It is obvious that Christ after ascending up to sit on the right side of the Father as the intermediary for his church (bride), would enter the Holy of Holies, which is the heavenly chamber of the bridegroom and the bride was consecrated to stay in her own chamber, until when?

Until her consummation, where the marriage is made complete upon her being reunited with her husband who now presents himself to her. The first advent is the consecration of the bride and the second coming is the consummation of the bride that the bridegroom has chosen. So for the consummation to happen all who were bidding to go to the wedding must come and this also includes the Jewish nation. Therefore the reason why Messiah has not come yet, is because the Jewish nation are dragging their feet, that is, they are having cold feet, if we may use this marriage saying.

So Daniel's 70th week will only be complete once the 11th hour workmen come. In Aramaic language a person who adamantly refuses the inevitable is said to be NAAZ-ZAAN, meaning ignorant at best. The Jewish nation is delaying the Lord's coming because of their pure ignorance. Throughout history they have been pushed and shoved one way or another and faced many troubling times and still they refuse to come. This time, the Lord will turn their lives upside down and then they will all come crying to him, especially when they loose everything, to then discover that their identity without their risen Messiah is fake.

I would love for them to come United as a nation to Christ, where they will finally anoint the most Holy in their hearts. May the Lord keep me alive to see this joyful day and to also take part in it. When they come, there is going to be a lot of customary Jewish/Aramaic calling made by women when a bride comes to her husband.

This is so bad. When Christ ascended HE HAD ALL POWER! It was given Him by God the Father and Christ clearly said that in Matthew 28:18!

Furthermore HE STILL REIGNS. He will not return the reign to God the Father until He has judged the world as 1 Corinthians 15:23-28:
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

This is even clear in Matthew 25:31-46! You're pretty far off from what scripture says. Hebrews 1 makes it real clear none of your explanation cuts it.

 

[Douggg]

The AOD is not revealed then setup, rather the other way around, that is, the AOD must be setup before being revealed in his time, otherwise it will be exposed before having the chance to be setup in the first place.

What you are doing is applying the word "revealed" in the 2thessalonians2:3-4 prophecy - erroneously to the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy AOD setup prophecy.

What is revealed is that the person is the man of sin. The AOD, on the other hand, is not said to be revealed in the text of the bible. What the bible says is that the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

The person goes into the temple, sits, making the statement that he is God, revealing himself as the man of sin - that's what reveals him in his time - as the man of sin. Then as a result of his audacious act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person killed. And then in Isaiah 14, in disdain for the person brings him back to life. At which time he become the beast.

After the person reveals that he is the man of sin, then killed, then brought back to life as the beast, the AOD is made, the image of the beast.

They are two different events, although closely related. The person going into the temple, sitting, making the statement that he is God - is the transgression of Desolation. It is called a transgression because the person transgresses the covenant that God has Israel.

After he is killed and brought back to life - the image of him is made. That image is the abomination of desolation.

So first, the transgression of desolation. Then the abomination of desolation.

 

[Douggg]

Why would Jesus address the unbelieving Jews by warning them, when he being fully God knew the future. In fact his message is also to all the new covenant believers, who would come to read his message, as we are doing right now and to heed the warning when AOD does manifest in the future after he is setup to be revealed in the first place. If the message from Jesus is not to today's and future believers, then AOD cannot be in the future, but AOD must have been in the past as Full Preterists would have us believe, so which one is it, is AOD in the past, during the unbelieving Jews that the message was addressed to coming to 70AD, within the generation of the 1st century that Jesus had said those words, or in the future to us, some 2000 years and counting?

If AOD is future, then Christ's message is to the believers, that is to us, who are of his church and if so, then we are here when AOD is revealed. Remembering that the AOD cannot be revealed until he is properly setup to be revealed in the first place. So the AOD is being secretly setup and when it is setup, only then will it be revealed, so that it won't be opposed. Think about it for a moment.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand : )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Are you living in Judea? If not, the warning to flee to the mountains, when the AOD is setup to be worshiped, is not to you. You are already saved, so the warning is not to you anyway.

The message to you and I is to pray and be anticipating the rapture, Luke 21:34-36, that could take place anytime.

 

[Douggg]

Are you telling me after the world sees the execution of the two witnesses paraded without being buried, that unbelievers of who some may have taken part in the celebrations of the witnesses who were executed, have the fire in the belly to stick their heads out for the AOD to also make examples of them? Hardly.

The two witnesses are killed after the Jews have been given a window of opportunity to flee out of Judea into the mountains.

Apart from the Jews who have fled into the mountains, them of the world who celebrate the deaths of the two witnesses - some may repent and turn to Jesus, and some will not.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.