The Rider Of The White Horse.

[iamlamad]

Very detailed, yet complex. How is it that the 144,000 are sealed before the gospel begins to be preached for the first time? Rev 14 says that the 144,000 are firstfruits of the harvest, yet only after they are raptured does the gospel go out to the multitude of nations. It seems there is something amiss.

You are correct, there is MUCH amiss! But it is a waste of time to correct.

 

[Berean777]

You are correct, there is MUCH amiss! But it is a waste of time to correct.

That could possibly be the smoking gun, how can we ignore this chronology. Maybe it was meant to be the lock to unlock everything else. Since many have thought it a waste of time, then we may be onto something, what do you think?

 

[Berean777]

When did the church begin spreading the gospel? VERY early in the church: as in Peter going to Cornelius' house. As I Philip going to Samaria. This is represented by the first seal.

So this is not about the 70th week or the days of GT. It is church history to us today. Jesus broke those seals around 32 AD. I am sure those three horses, the red, the black and the pale are still at work. Soon they will stir up world war 3.
When wars come, Missionaries usually go home. When famines come, most missionaries STAY home. Thank God there are some that are equipped to take food.

When was the first war as in the red horse? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe)
This is one small segment....

• 35-41 Iberian-Parthian war
• 49–96 Roman conquest of Britain
• 51 Iberian-Armenian war
• 69 Year of the Four Emperors
• 193 Year of the Five Emperors
• 208–210 Roman invasion of Caledoni
• 238 Year of the Six Emperors
• 271–278 Colchis–Roman War
• 284–285 Roman civil war
• 306–324 Civil wars of the Tetrarchy
• 350–351 Roman civil war
• 360–361 Roman civil war
• 367–368 Great Conspiracy
• 376–382 Gothic War
• 387–388 Roman civil war
• 394 Roman civil war of 394 AD
• 482–484 Iberian-Persian War
• 526–532 Iberian War
• 535–554 Gothic War
• 541–562 Lazic War

This list goes on an on. It seems there was hardly a time whey all of Europe was at peace. And this is not counting whatever wars might have been in the Middle East and Africa which would be included in the 1/4 of the earth.

I am not sure if there exists such a list for famines. I found one!
Here is a small part:
400–800 AD Various famines in Western Europe associated with the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and its sack by Alaric I. Between 400 and 800 AD, the population of the city of Rome fell by over 90%, mainly because of famine and plague.[6] Western Europe
639 Famine in Arabia during the Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab[7] Arabia

These three riders are NOTHING compared to what the days of GT will be. Remember first, these three are limited to 1/4 of the earth. The Beast will have no such limitation.

Sure war is hell, as they say. Famines are terrible. But usually these are local events mostly affecting one small part of earth's surface. I guess over time these three have indeed caused the death of many. The black plague kills perhaps 1/3 of all living during that time. But if we add up all that the wars have cost, plus those who died because of starvation and disease over the history of the church age, we are talking about a LOT of people - but just not all at one time.

You should know what will make the days of GT great....greater than any time before. It will be the image and the mark, and that all who will not bow will lose their head, and all who refuse the mark likewise. But what will make this time greater than all other times - say for instance when Jerusalem was under siege and people were eating their own children - is that this time, when the Beast is in full control, it will be WORLD WIDE. There will be very few if any places where anyone can hide.

It makes me wonder if the abomination that makes desolate is the anti christ himself, who serves to kill those who do not bow their knees to him. If the Jews will be led to believe that he is the earthly Messiah, then what is stopping brothers in Christ rising up against other brothers in Christ.

It seems at this time, the church will be divided as recorded in Zechariah 14, where many will go into captivity of the mind, to follow the beast and to do his bidding. What do you think?

What do you think of the Messiah being cutoff in the middle of the week. Is this not the 70th week? If it is not then when did the coming of messiah commence, that is in which week?

 

[iamlamad]

That could possibly be the smoking gun, how can we ignore this chronology. Maybe it was meant to be the lock to unlock everything else. Since many have thought it a waste of time, then we may be onto something, what do you think?

There are some here that I just quit answering, because no matter how they are corrected or who corrects them, they just continue with their false theories.

 

[iamlamad]

It makes me wonder if the abomination that makes desolate is the anti christ himself, who serves to kill those who do not bow their knees to him. If the Jews will be led to believe that he is the earthly Messiah, then what is stopping brothers in Christ rising up against other brothers in Christ.

It seems at this time, the church will be divided as recorded in Zechariah 14, where many will go into captivity of the mind, to follow the beast and to do his bidding. What do you think?

What do you think of the Messiah being cutoff in the middle of the week. Is this not the 70th week? If it is not then when did the coming of messiah commence, that is in which week?

I think up to verse 16 is speaking of the Battle of Armageddon. From 16 on it is about the Millennial reign.

Daniel 9 tells us that the Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks. Some think this means He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, thinking the 70th week would follow the 69th week. However, DANIEL put a gap between the 69th week and the 70th. We are still waiting for the 70th week. What will divide the week will be the abomination.

 

[Berean777]

There are some here that I just quit answering, because no matter how they are corrected or who corrects them, they just continue with their false theories.

Why is that. Maybe they need time to think and to reflect.

 

[Berean777]

I think up to verse 16 is speaking of the Battle of Armageddon. From 16 on it is about the Millennial reign.

Daniel 9 tells us that the Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks. Some think this means He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, thinking the 70th week would follow the 69th week. However, DANIEL put a gap between the 69th week and the 70th. We are still waiting for the 70th week. What will divide the week will be the abomination.

Usually in Jewish terminology when a person is let's say 20 years and 1 month, they say that he is entered into his 21st year. In the west the person can be 20 years and 11 months and still they say that he is 20 until the day of his birthday.

The building up of Jerusalem onto the Messiah is on the 69th week. The cutting of in the middle of the 69th week would be considered the 70th week by Jewish counting terminology, like 69 weeks and a half are already in the 70th week. It is like saying we are in the 21st century when we are 2016.

 

[Berean777]

The Messiah was not Cut Off until after 69 1/2 Weeks – 69 Weeks UNTIL He came plus His ministry of 3 1/2 years ... (69 x 7) + 3.5 = 486.5 or 4861/2 years

Since the 69th week has already been entered into halfway, then it would no longer be considered the 69th week, but rather the 70th week. The assertion made here, is that Daniel's 70th week ends exactly at the 70th week, meaning it does not continue past the 70th week. So in this respect the prophecy ends at the completion of the 70th week, otherwise if it continued past the 70th week, then we would now have entered the 71st week.

This is what scripture says.......

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So if we have entered into the 69th week, then we are really in the middle of the completion of the 70th week, knowing fully well that only a half week remains before the 70th week is reached, where prophesy will be fulfilled. Daniel doesn't prophesy past the 70th week. In this respect Messiah had to have been crucified in the middle of the 70th week, which points to his 3.5 years ministry on earth and 3.5 symbolic days of the ministry of the two symbolic witnesses (Law and Prophets), which is the commission of the church to make disciples of the world.

It seems that the Messiah left the last half of the 70th week into the hands of his commissioned church and it would be sensible to think that the church is therefore the symbol of the two witnesses, which symbolises the law and the prophets. As scripture testifies that the laws of God are written on the hearts of the born again believers in Christ and the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophesy as Peter confirmed, when referring to Joel in the Acts of the Apostles, regarding how believers will dream dreams and prophesy/preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In this respect, if the church is the rider of the White horse, then it would point to the head of the church Jesus Christ. Rev 19 portrays the risen Lord at the finale as the conquering King with many crowns at his brilliant coming, when he would have put down every Kingdom and would have drawn all men onto him, before he himself becomes subject to the Father.

 

[iamlamad]

Why is that. Maybe they need time to think and to reflect.

It could be their gears are a little rusty, but I rather think It is just human reasoning without the benefit of the TEACHER, the Holy Spirit.

 

[iamlamad]

Usually in Jewish terminology when a person is let's say 20 years and 1 month, they say that he is entered into his 21st year. In the west the person can be 20 years and 11 months and still they say that he is 20 until the day of his birthday.

The building up of Jerusalem onto the Messiah is on the 69th week. The cutting of in the middle of the 69th week would be considered the 70th week by Jewish counting terminology, like 69 weeks and a half are already in the 70th week. It is like saying we are in the 21st century when we are 2016.

I would not be a bit surprised that that is the way Jews see this verse, IF they look at it at all. I had some Chat friends from Israel, in high school: they actually were told not to read Daniel or Revelation or it would make them go crazy! I was surprised though that they DID go through the New Testament....except Revelation.

However, I don't see it that way. I see that Daniel backed by the Holy Spirit purposely separated the 70th week from the 69th. The church because a parentheses placed between the 69th and 70th. Revelation proves the entire 70th week is future.

 

[Berean777]

It could be their gears are a little rusty, but I rather think It is just human reasoning without the benefit of the TEACHER, the Holy Spirit.

It could very well be just as you are saying.

 

[iamlamad]

The Messiah was not Cut Off until after 69 1/2 Weeks – 69 Weeks UNTIL He came plus His ministry of 3 1/2 years ... (69 x 7) + 3.5 = 486.5 or 4861/2 years

Since the 69th week has already been entered into halfway, then it would no longer be considered the 69th week, but rather the 70th week. The assertion made here, is that Daniel's 70th week ends exactly at the 70th week, meaning it does not continue past the 70th week. So in this respect the prophecy ends at the completion of the 70th week, otherwise if it continued past the 70th week, then we would now have entered the 71st week.

This is what scripture says.......



So if we have entered into the 69th week, then we are really in the middle of the completion of the 70th week, knowing fully well that only a half week remains before the 70th week is reached, where prophesy will be fulfilled. Daniel doesn't prophesy past the 70th week. In this respect Messiah had to have been crucified in the middle of the 70th week, which points to his 3.5 years ministry on earth and 3.5 symbolic days of the ministry of the two symbolic witnesses (Law and Prophets), which is the commission of the church to make disciples of the world.

I have heard this theory before and rejected it then. There is simply no scripture that shows us Jesus ministry as 3 1/2 years. Since God chose to show us 5 different times and three different ways the last half of the 70th week, why would He be negligent and not show us even one scripture to prove his ministry was 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days, or 42 months to represent the first half of the week?

However, as I told someone else two or three days ago, I want you to do an experiment: get an apple or an orange, and eat half of it today. The in two days (representing 2000 years) get the other half out and cut it in half (representing the ceasing of the daily sacrifices caused by the man of sin entering the most holy place in the temple which event will DIVIDE the week into two halves) And then observe what you have left of the whole. You now have two QUARTERS. Sorry, but your theory simply won't work: to divide something in half and end up with two halves requires a WHOLE apple or a whole week AT THE TIME OF THE DIVISION.

It seems that the Messiah left the last half of the 70th week into the hands of his commissioned church and it would be sensible to think that the church is therefore the symbol of the two witnesses, which symbolises the law and the prophets. As scripture testifies that the laws of God are written on the hearts of the born again believers in Christ and the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophesy as Peter confirmed, when referring to Joel in the Acts of the Apostles, regarding how believers will dream dreams and prophesy/preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your imagination is running wild. The two witnesses are two MEN.

In this respect, if the church is the rider of the White horse, then it would point to the head of the church Jesus Christ. Rev 19 portrays the risen Lord at the finale as the conquering King with many crowns at his brilliant coming, when he would have put down every Kingdom and would have drawn all men onto him, before he himself becomes subject to the Father.

Your last point is great.

 

[Berean777]

I would not be a bit surprised that that is the way Jews see this verse, IF they look at it at all. I had some Chat friends from Israel, in high school: they actually were told not to read Daniel or Revelation or it would make them go crazy! I was surprised though that they DID go through the New Testament....except Revelation.

However, I don't see it that way. I see that Daniel backed by the Holy Spirit purposely separated the 70th week from the 69th. The church because a parentheses placed between the 69th and 70th. Revelation proves the entire 70th week is future.

Very interesting discovery that you have made, that is that Daniel and Revelation are books that some Jews try to avoid in order to continue their ways, whilst avoiding contentions that bring forth internal contradictions.

In respect to the 70th week, I don't believe that the prophesy goes beyond the 70th week, that is, once 70 weeks are reached, the count doesn't continue past 70 weeks. It would be like how God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th, the 7th day arrived at the immediate end of the 6th day. Jesus arose from the grave on the 3rd day, where the 3rd day commenced at the ending of the 2nd day and so forth. If we take examples from the Bible itself we can know that once the 69th week has been completed, we are now in the 71st week. If we have it any other way, we would be imposing a western terminology of counting weeks, birthdays etc, upon a text which has Jewish cultural anthropological context.

When people in the middle east say that a person is say 21 years old, the person is actually 20 years plus, that is he has entered into his 21st year and so forth. The western concept would say that the person remains 20 years old until the very day of his birthday, until 365 days have elapsed past his 20th year. So in retrospec the ancient Jews looked at the glass half full, whilst the western mindset looks at it half empty and that is why the glass remains empty until it is completely filled. In this regard we can draw the conclusion that the 70th week containing Daniel's prophesy have been half fulfilled as to say that we have already entered more than half way into the 70th week. It would be wrong to say that no prophesy is fulfilled, until we have reached the completion of the 70th week.

If we say 69 1/2 weeks is 69 weeks with zero 70th week fulfillment, then this is a wrong interpretation.

If we say 69 1/2 weeks is 70th week with over half of it fulfilled, then this is a more accurate interpretation.

Do you get the drift?

 

[Berean777]

Your last point is great.

Thankyou kindly and I have added another post to further emphasis my point.

Since communicating with you I have fixed some mistakes in thought. I do see that your knowledge is good to refer to. I am now convinced that the first rider of the white horse is the church. Thanks for your much appreciated input.

 

[iamlamad]

Very interesting discovery that you have made, that is that Daniel and Revelation are books that some Jews try to avoid in order to continue their ways, whilst avoiding contentions that bring forth internal contradictions.

In respect to the 70th week, I don't believe that the prophesy goes beyond the 70th week, that is, once 70 weeks are reached, the count doesn't continue past 70 weeks. It would be like how God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th, the 7th day arrived at the immediate end of the 6th day. Jesus arose from the grave on the 3rd day, where the 3rd day commenced at the ending of the 2nd day and so forth. If we take examples from the Bible itself we can know that once the 69th week has been completed, we are now in the 71st week. If we have it any other way, we would be imposing a western terminology of counting weeks, birthdays etc, upon a text which has Jewish cultural anthropological context.
It theory this makes sense - but it does not follow scripture. It is human reasoning. For example, WHY did Daniel Himself separate the 70th week into a verse all its own - as if to make it a separate week?
Is there something God cannot do? Would it be impossible for God to insert a parentheses into the Israeli time-line and turn to the Gentiles, thereby putting off the 70th week for later? I see no reason why God could not do this. Jesus sent me to find the exact midpoint - and I did - at the 7th trumpet. He also said I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked, and I did: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. So you tell us? What is that time before the exact midpoint in which the first 6 trumpets will sound? And HOW is the ceasing of the sacrifices something soon in our future going to divide a week if half the week is missing? It would be impossible. No, the ENTIRE WEEK must be back to back and together at the same time for an event to split the week into two halves. In fact, this is exactly what Revelation shows us. However, if you wish to believe that the first half of the 70th week ended with Jesus' death, go ahead. If you wish to believe the ENTIRE 70th week was back then, go ahead. But you might as well tear the book of Revelation from your bible.

When people in the middle east say that a person is say 21 years old, the person is actually 20 years plus, that is he has entered into his 21st year and so forth. The western concept would say that the person remains 20 years old until the very day of his birthday, until 365 days have elapsed past his 20th year. So in retrospec the ancient Jews looked at the glass half full, whilst the western mindset looks at it half empty and that is why the glass remains empty until it is completely filled. In this regard we can draw the conclusion that the 70th week containing Daniel's prophesy have been half fulfilled as to say that we have already entered more than half way into the 70th week. It would be wrong to say that no prophesy is fulfilled, until we have reached the completion of the 70th week.

If we say 69 1/2 weeks is 69 weeks with zero 70th week fulfillment, then this is a wrong interpretation.

If we say 69 1/2 weeks is 70th week with over half of it fulfilled, then this is a more accurate interpretation.

Do you get the drift?

Yes, I just don't believe it. I know that the ENTIRE 70th week is future. Simply arithmetic proves it.

 

[iamlamad]

Thankyou kindly and I have added another post to further emphasis my point.

Since communicating with you I have fixed some mistakes in thought. I do see that your knowledge is good to refer to. I am now convinced that the first rider of the white horse is the church. Thanks for your much appreciated input.

Hallelujah!

 

[Berean777]

Yes, I just don't believe it. I know that the ENTIRE 70th week is future. Simply arithmetic proves it.

From John's reference point, it was future and it is still future to us. But from John onwards the 70th week had to have been half completed by the Messiah at his first advent. For the 70th week prophesy to have not been already initiated by the Lord's first advent would have taken away from him his glorious incarnation and also taken away the important message of Daniel, in regards to 70 weeks are determined upon THY people and thy people, meant the Jerusalem that was being built up for the coming of Messiah the first time, that is for the Jews. As Jesus would say salvation has come to the Jews first. Again from John's time reference it was future and still is to us, yet it must have been initiated by Messiah's first advent, within the same context of the time that Jerusalem was after all being built up for him. The 70th week is the end of the 69th that started with Messiah, that is first advent and then ends with the triumphant second coming of Messiah as the rider of the white horse in Rev 19, that is if we are to entertain that the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 is the church.

To deny that over half of the 70th week has already been fulfilled is to deny the Lord's first momentous advent.

So 69 1/2 weeks is already 1/2 of the 70th week being fulfilled by the first advent of Messiah from his 3.5 year ministry, to his crucifixion and then resurrection. The remaining half of the 70th week is the ministry of the church as the symbol of the two witnesses.

 

[Douggg]

Is the rapture the resurrection? I just need clarity, so when believers are called up, they are clothed with immortality right?

People use the term rapture in conversation and discussion, and the near simultaneous resurrection of all the dead in Christ is included to with it, although they may not voice it .... and just use the term rapture to include both. It's implied.

Yes, both the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the translation of the living is that they will have a body that is eternal, beyond decay.

 

[Berean777]

People use the term rapture in conversation and discussion, and the near simultaneous resurrection of all the dead in Christ is included to with it, although they may not voice it .... and just use the term rapture to include both. It's implied.

Yes, both the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the translation of the living is that they will have a body that is eternal, beyond decay.

I see, interesting.

 

[Douggg]

Very detailed, yet complex. How is it that the 144,000 are sealed before the gospel begins to be preached for the first time? Rev 14 says that the 144,000 are firstfruits of the harvest, yet only after they are raptured does the gospel go out to the multitude of nations. It seems there is something amiss.

The gospel was preached for the first time back in Acts when the disciples went out to spread the gospel among the nations. I don't see any cessation of preaching the gospel on any timeline.

The 144,000 are in heaven, before Revelation 14:7. The the hour of his judgment is come.

But at the same time the gospel is preached to the world, Revelation 14:6. Over in Revelation 16:9, the judgments are God's wrath upon the beast and them who follow him, but also God's attempt to get men to change.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 14:
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.