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The Return of My Apple Challenge

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AV1611VET

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Repeating the impossible feat would prove you had the ability.
I could repeat that 1000[sup]1000[/sup] times, Truthiness, and it will never even come close to proving (or showing) I created that first apple ex nihilo.

Let's quit playing games, okay?


If you don't know --- just say so, please.
Because I can't see a normal, intelligent person that would objectively view the apple in your hand, hear you say "I made this out of nothingness" and reply "That is a reasonable explanation of how apples are made"
* sigh *
  1. The apple is not in my hand --- it is in yours.
  2. This "normal, intelligent" person would not hear me say a word --- he should be hearing you.
Question: If he refuses to believe you (assuming I can get you to answer this challenge the way I wrote it) --- If your friend refuses to believe you --- would he be wrong?
 
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truthiness

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Question: If he refuses to believe you (assuming I can get you to answer this challenge the way I wrote it) --- If your friend refuses to believe you --- would he be wrong?

Absolutely, he could also be right. Hence the circle is completed.
It's not that I don't understand the question, the question is put forth to make people think. I have come to the conclusion that the apple and all it represents is false. Though, someone similar to me would find a true answer to this equation (after all this is an equation). What it seems to come down to is probability. To believe me or not to believe me.
 
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AV1611VET

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Though, someone similar to me would find a true answer to this equation (after all this is an equation).
There actually is a physical, scientific answer to this challenge --- although it is beyond current technology to produce.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Actually, AV your challenge is semantically meaningless. What is an ex nihilo creation? Before this is specified, it'll be quite hard to prove/disprove or to show evidence for anything.

On the other hand, it would be quite easy to produce something equally meaningless, and pass it off as evidence or even (dis)proof. Hmmm ...

I'd show that dude that the apple has an imperceptively visible, pensive surface structure as evidence of ex nihilo creation. Very simple. A further clue is that the apple has a diameter of exactly 5 inches, with a varying height and width between 1 and 37.5 inches.

Not to forget about your, AV, incredibly high post count. Speaks volumes if and only if the apple is ex nihilo, if not it remains silent.
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually, AV your challenge is semantically meaningless.
I disagree.
What is an ex nihilo creation?
Wikipedia said:
The Latin phrase ex nihilo means "out of nothing". It often appears in conjunction with the concept of creation, as in creatio ex nihilo, meaning "creation out of nothing". Due to the connotations of the phrase creatio ex nihilo, it often occurs in philosophical or creationistic arguments, as many Christians, Muslims, and Jews believe that God created the universe from nothing. This contrasts with creatio ex materia (creation out of eternally pre-existent matter) and with creatio ex deo (creation out of the being of God).
Before this is specified, it'll be quite hard to prove/disprove or to show evidence for anything.
But I'm not asking how hard it is to show, I'm just asking how you would convince your friend I did this.
On the other hand, it would be quite easy to produce something equally meaningless, and pass it off as evidence or even (dis)proof. Hmmm ...
I'm not asking you to do the same thing. I'm asking you to take it to your friend, then tell me how you would convinced your friend I did it.
I'd show that dude that the apple has an imperceptively visible, pensive surface structure as evidence of ex nihilo creation. Very simple. A further clue is that the apple has a diameter of exactly 5 inches, with a varying height and width between 1 and 37.5 inches.
What if the apple had bruises on it, and a worm in it? Would it really matter? Ex nihilo is ex nihilo.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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I disagree.

So?

And about dictionaries, for any of the words I used I could show you dictionary entries as well. Just like you can show an entry about 'ex nihilo creation' I could show you 'surface structure.' Just like you could show 'apple' I could show you 'pensive.' Etc.


But I'm not asking how hard it is to show, I'm just asking how you would convince your friend I did this. I'm not asking you to do the same thing. I'm asking you to take it to your friend, then tell me how you would convinced your friend I did it.

You actually now have two replies. The first was to create some sort of documentation, and come to think of it, I think that documentation should actually assert that it was not ex nihilo creation.

What if the apple had bruises on it, and a worm in it? Would it really matter? Ex nihilo is ex nihilo.

Who said anything about bruises? It would matter if the apple had an imperceptively visible, pensive surface structure. It would matter if it had a diameter of exactly 5 inches, with a varying height and width between 1 and 37.5 inches. Your post count would matter as well. None of this is unimportant.

And, I'll show you even yet another thing that would count as evidence ... The apple has "Ex Nihilo Inc" written on its heart if it is ex nihilo created.
 
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AV1611VET

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And, I'll show you even yet another thing that would count as evidence ... The apple has "Ex Nihilo Inc" written on its heart if it is ex nihilo created.
Have a good day, sir.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Have a good day, sir.

You are not convinced, I take it? What if I showed you documentation? Still not? Any proper friend would be convinced, so somebody unconvinced cannot be a friend.
 
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Tomk80

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You are not convinced, I take it? What if I showed you documentation? Still not? Any proper friend would be convinced, so anybody unconvinced must not be a friend.
You called him on the internal contradictions in his statements, so he had to run away again.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I disagree.

you have stumbled across something resembling a point here, AV -- although, as usual, it's not the point you intended, and as usual, you did so by accident.

Your apple challenge proves conclusively the complete and total intellectual and scientific bankruptcy of Creationism. For this, you have my thanks.

(of course, you're going to deny what I've just said, mostly because you have no idea what I'm referring to -- fret not; we're used to it.)

But I'm not asking how hard it is to show, I'm just asking how you would convince your friend I did this. I'm not asking you to do the same thing. I'm asking you to take it to your friend, then tell me how you would convinced your friend I did it.

Impossible. And lacking any reliable evidence or documentation, the challenge falls flat.

What if the apple had bruises on it, and a worm in it? Would it really matter? Ex nihilo is ex nihilo.

I suppose it wouldn't matter -- in the extremely limited scope of your "challenge." Although an ex nihilo apple with bruises and a worm in it certainly wouldn't look ex nihilo. were I to show such an apple to my friend, he'd have ample reasons to doubt me, and no reason to believe me except for my own credibility -- which would sink into the toilet if I espoused this challenge.

Again, AV -- I thank you -- you've put yet another nail in Creationism's coffin.
 
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AV1611VET

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Your apple challenge proves conclusively the complete and total intellectual and scientific bankruptcy of Creationism. For this, you have my thanks.

(of course, you're going to deny what I've just said...
Deny it?

On the contrary --- that's my point:

Ex nihilo creation does not leave an audit trail.

Not an intellectual one, not a scientific one, not a logic one, not anything.

Therefore --- a note from the one who did it would be a step in the right direction.

And you can deny the note for whatever reason you can think up --- but you would be wrong.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Deny it?

On the contrary --- that's my point:

Ex nihilo creation does not leave an audit trail.

Not an intellectual one, not a scientific one, not a logic one, not anything.

So you worship nothing.

Therefore --- a note from the one who did it would be a step in the right direction.

And you can deny the note for whatever reason you can think up --- but you would be wrong.

It would be such a step -- if we had such a note. You claim we do, but you would be wrong.
 
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Freodin

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And you can deny the note for whatever reason you can think up --- but you would be wrong.
Would you? How would we know - how would YOU know - now that you have deliberately done away with every means to find out?

Deny it?

On the contrary --- that's my point:

Ex nihilo creation does not leave an audit trail.

Not an intellectual one, not a scientific one, not a logic one, not anything.

Therefore --- a note from the one who did it would be a step in the right direction.
Nathan is correct: in your attempt to defend a faith-based creationism, you have destroyed its credibility.

Consided, if you have definitly no way to evidence an ex-nilhilo creation... how would you know that you have a note from the one who did it?
 
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BananaSlug

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BananaSlug

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Deny it?

On the contrary --- that's my point:

Ex nihilo creation does not leave an audit trail.

Not an intellectual one, not a scientific one, not a logic one, not anything.

Therefore --- a note from the one who did it would be a step in the right direction.

And you can deny the note for whatever reason you can think up --- but you would be wrong.


How would we convince our friends of such an action if said action does not leave "an audit trail"? If such an action is truly beyond the realms of intellect, reason, and logic, then the people who believe such a claim are most likely those with an "Of Mice and Men" mentality.

What is the point of such a challenge to those who require evidence before they accept such extraordinary claims? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. How would you prove an apple created "Ex nihilo" to a grand jury? Would you simply pick up an apple and claim, "I created this apple out of nothing!" Obviously such a tactic would not work because the jury would have plenty of reasonable doubt that you did such an action.

Secondly, if you think the Bible is "a note from the one who did it" is a reason to believe, that is wrong as well. Most Christians believe that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. The Genesis story was passed down for hundreds of years before it was written down. The Bible is not a "note from the one who did it" but a note from one who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it... etc. Anybody who has played the game "telephone" realizes how much something can change as it is passed orally.
 
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