The Return of My Apple Challenge

[peteos]

If I were standing in front of you and you created an apple out of thin air, I would be greatly impressed! But let's further the analogy a bit, what if you did it when my back was turned, and so when I turned around you had the apple in your hand. You claim you created it out of thin air, and I certainly can't prove you didn't. But then I notice there is a Washington Red Delishous sticker on the apple. I point this out and you claim you created the sticker on the apple at the same time. A strange thing to do, but I guess you could if you wanted to. So I take the apple and examine and notice it has a wax on it that is normally sprayed on by apple growers, you of course claim you created that as well, I guess to give it an appearance of age(?). I then notice we are close to a grocery store, so I take the apple inside and compare it with the apples being sold, and notice the date on the sticker matches the apples in the store, as well as the grower. I also examine more closly and notice the apple is slighly bruised on one side, a common occurance during shipping. I wonder why you might have created an apple that by empiracle observation appears to be have a history of being grown by a Washington plantation, treated and labeled, has signs of shipment, and for all extents and purposes is indentical to the other apples that arrived in my vacinity through non supernatural means. You could have done this of course, I could not prove you did not. But may I bother you to ask why you went to such trouble to make it LOOK like the apple actually arrived through a normal apple history. What was your motive that would make your creation ex nihilio indistiguishable from the fact that the apple actually was grown just like all the others.

God can create in six days. Indeed, God can and has raised Jesus from the dead. And yet, it would appear through overwelming empiracle evidence that God created gradually, and if He did create all kinds instantanously, he has made it completly indistigushiable from that of sharing a common ancestor. There are a bazillion ways God could have created that would not fit a common ancestor, but only one that would domonstrate a common ancestor, a nested heirchy pattern that is created independetly through morphology, fossils, genetics (including genetic mutuations and errors), biogeography, etc. It is not a question of assuming there is no supernatural. I know God exists and trust in the work of His son this very day. It is a question of the historical trail left behind, that can be and has been examined for well over one hundred and fifty years. Yes, it is possible God created all creatures instantanously 6k years ago, and I can't prove He didn't, but I can not think of any good motive that would lead Him to have nature deceive us so fully. If you were going to create your apple out of thin out, would you also create the Washington Red Delishous sticker?

 

[tanzanos]

Nope --- my distant relatives were made upright.

[bible]Ecclesiastes 7:29[/bible]





Show me video tapes, written affidavits, or anything else you added to my scenario, in my scenario.

Whoever designed the human to walk upright was a LOUSY ENGINEER. Any fool can see that an 'S' shaped spinal column is the worst possible shape to carry vertical loads. That is unless like the chimps man did not walk upright all the time.

AV1 I am sorry to burst your bubble but yes your distant relatives like mine were apes. In fact We still belong to the Ape family.
Chimp Blood is so close to human blood that we can inter transfuse blood between them and us. That is how close we are.

 

[Phred]

I can't make this challenge any simplier, Phred.

I told you what I'd need. You have to DO it, in front of me so I can see what happens. What you don't get is that this isn't as easy as you think it is. You can't just think of an apple and it appears. It's made of constituent atoms arranged just so. How did you arrange them? What forces did you use to put them into place? Where did the atoms come from? Did you grow an apple and speed the process up so that it just looked like it appeared in your hand? Did you carefully arrange each individual atom?

It's fun to say that you just created something from nothing by thinking of it... but this is the real world and that simply cannot be done. Between the thought and the outcome is a process that requires interpretation of the thought into solid matter. Even if your thought of the apple is detailed down to the individual quark... all you have is a map and the map is not the journey.

When you try to take magic and make it real that's what happens... you run into these kinds of real-world barriers. I can't explain it any more simply.

 

[selfinflikted]

The problem here is, the friend I tell about your magical feat would have absolutely NO reason to believe me when I told him what you did -especially knowing that apples come from trees. I wouldn't expect someone to believe this, unless they had seen it for themselves. What's the point to this exercise?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

The problem here is, the friend I tell about your magical feat would have absolutely NO reason to believe me when I told him what you did -especially knowing that apples come from trees. I wouldn't expect someone to believe this, unless they had seen it for themselves. What's the point to this exercise?

From what I understood, his argument goes something like this:

1. There is no evidence that he created an apple in his hand, but we know that he did (staying in the analogy, that is).
2. There is no evidence that God created the earth, nor is there evidence of the global flood.
3. Since everyone who claims that he created the apple in 1 is right despite no evidence to support his claim, God created the earth and caused a global flood - after all, there is no evidence for both either.

You may cry now.

 

[Atheuz]

I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?

My friend over there told me he made the apple ex nihilo appear into the palm of my hand, not you.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Chimp Blood is so close to human blood that we can inter transfuse blood between them and us.

Can we really? I know this is a debate board, so everything comes out as a challenge, but I'm sincerely curious. Do you have a link with this info I could look at?

 

[thaumaturgy]

I can't make this challenge any simplier, Phred.

Or any less meaningful.

If you created an apple ex nihilo and I told my friends about it, if they believed me solely based on my words alone, I'd have to consider getting new friends.

Or not...because if they believed me, they'd probably fall for anything and I could take them for a lot of money! Yeah, that's it. I'd start a foundation wherein I asked them for $$$ and then I'd tell them that I'd have AV1611VET perform miracles for them...and...and...

I'd get rich! Yes, yes, please, let's go with this. (Psst, AV, I can cut you in a bit of the profits...you wouldn't really have to perform any miracles, not one! Not even the apple one, let's work on this. Can you front the cost of a webpage for this? I'll run it for you.... after you recouped the fee it would all be gravy!

I hear the gravy train a'comin' and it sounds like it's on biscuit wheels!)

 

[CaligulaNero]

"I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand. What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?"

Well first I would examine whether you did such a thing before I worried about my friend. I wouldn't trust my own perception of what occurred. I know how apples are formed, and know they cannot be formed out of thin air by apes (men), so I would have to assume it was a trick and/or that I was insane and/or that I took some form of drugs before you showed this to me. Assuming you could actually do such a thing for real, I would have you examined by scientists (but I would likely be taken to an insane asylum first). I don't get what this is an attempt to analogize to.

 

[Tomk80]

If I were standing in front of you and you created an apple out of thin air, I would be greatly impressed! But let's further the analogy a bit, what if you did it when my back was turned, and so when I turned around you had the apple in your hand. You claim you created it out of thin air, and I certainly can't prove you didn't. But then I notice there is a Washington Red Delishous sticker on the apple. I point this out and you claim you created the sticker on the apple at the same time. A strange thing to do, but I guess you could if you wanted to. So I take the apple and examine and notice it has a wax on it that is normally sprayed on by apple growers, you of course claim you created that as well, I guess to give it an appearance of age(?). I then notice we are close to a grocery store, so I take the apple inside and compare it with the apples being sold, and notice the date on the sticker matches the apples in the store, as well as the grower. I also examine more closly and notice the apple is slighly bruised on one side, a common occurance during shipping. I wonder why you might have created an apple that by empiracle observation appears to be have a history of being grown by a Washington plantation, treated and labeled, has signs of shipment, and for all extents and purposes is indentical to the other apples that arrived in my vacinity through non supernatural means. You could have done this of course, I could not prove you did not. But may I bother you to ask why you went to such trouble to make it LOOK like the apple actually arrived through a normal apple history. What was your motive that would make your creation ex nihilio indistiguishable from the fact that the apple actually was grown just like all the others.

God can create in six days. Indeed, God can and has raised Jesus from the dead. And yet, it would appear through overwelming empiracle evidence that God created gradually, and if He did create all kinds instantanously, he has made it completly indistigushiable from that of sharing a common ancestor. There are a bazillion ways God could have created that would not fit a common ancestor, but only one that would domonstrate a common ancestor, a nested heirchy pattern that is created independetly through morphology, fossils, genetics (including genetic mutuations and errors), biogeography, etc. It is not a question of assuming there is no supernatural. I know God exists and trust in the work of His son this very day. It is a question of the historical trail left behind, that can be and has been examined for well over one hundred and fifty years. Yes, it is possible God created all creatures instantanously 6k years ago, and I can't prove He didn't, but I can not think of any good motive that would lead Him to have nature deceive us so fully. If you were going to create your apple out of thin out, would you also create the Washington Red Delishous sticker?

Peteos for the win.

 

[Tomk80]

F

What a curious thing to post, F.

I'll just assign my own meaning to it. I take it to mean:
"Yes I know it is a botched challenge Tom, because again, as in all my other examples, it again neglects the appearance of history. But I just keep popping out these irrelevant 'challenges' because I cannot admit my errors and hope to find an ignorant sod who believes me"

 

[tanzanos]

Can we really? I know this is a debate board, so everything comes out as a challenge, but I'm sincerely curious. Do you have a link with this info I could look at?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6505691.stm

APES AND US
Gorillas, bonobos, orang-utans and chimps are great apes
Chimpanzees and bonobos differ from humans by only 1% of DNA and could accept a blood transfusion or a kidney
All great apes recognise themselves in a mirror
Elephants and dolphins show similar self-awareness
Great apes can learn and use human languages through signs or symbols but lack the vocal anatomy to master speech
Great apes have displayed love, fear, anxiety and jealousy
In 1997 the UK government banned experiments on great apes but not on primates such as marmosets and macaques

Sources: Ian Redmond, Charlotte Uhlenbroek

Also Jane Goodal (family friend) told me that chimp blood can be transfused to humans. I have no reason to doubt her as she is a world authority on chimps.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Thanks for the info! And Jane Goodall is a family friend? Very cool

 

[consol]

Poor AV1611VET, you have just got to love him to bits,
how sad would you be if he was your son.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Poor AV1611VET, you have just got to love him to bits,
how sad would you be if he was your son.

He's 53, he could be the father of most people around here.

 

[consol]

He's 53, he could be the father of most people around here.

Then he is definitely old enough to know better.

God did it is something a child would say, not an adult.
(unless he is lying about his age)

 

[TuxThePenguin]

He's 53, he could be the father of most people around here.

He's not 53, its only the appearance of age.

 

[Athene]

If I were standing in front of you and you created an apple out of thin air, I would be greatly impressed! But let's further the analogy a bit, what if you did it when my back was turned, and so when I turned around you had the apple in your hand. You claim you created it out of thin air, and I certainly can't prove you didn't. But then I notice there is a Washington Red Delishous sticker on the apple. I point this out and you claim you created the sticker on the apple at the same time. A strange thing to do, but I guess you could if you wanted to. So I take the apple and examine and notice it has a wax on it that is normally sprayed on by apple growers, you of course claim you created that as well, I guess to give it an appearance of age(?). I then notice we are close to a grocery store, so I take the apple inside and compare it with the apples being sold, and notice the date on the sticker matches the apples in the store, as well as the grower. I also examine more closly and notice the apple is slighly bruised on one side, a common occurance during shipping. I wonder why you might have created an apple that by empiracle observation appears to be have a history of being grown by a Washington plantation, treated and labeled, has signs of shipment, and for all extents and purposes is indentical to the other apples that arrived in my vacinity through non supernatural means. You could have done this of course, I could not prove you did not. But may I bother you to ask why you went to such trouble to make it LOOK like the apple actually arrived through a normal apple history. What was your motive that would make your creation ex nihilio indistiguishable from the fact that the apple actually was grown just like all the others.

God can create in six days. Indeed, God can and has raised Jesus from the dead. And yet, it would appear through overwelming empiracle evidence that God created gradually, and if He did create all kinds instantanously, he has made it completly indistigushiable from that of sharing a common ancestor. There are a bazillion ways God could have created that would not fit a common ancestor, but only one that would domonstrate a common ancestor, a nested heirchy pattern that is created independetly through morphology, fossils, genetics (including genetic mutuations and errors), biogeography, etc. It is not a question of assuming there is no supernatural. I know God exists and trust in the work of His son this very day. It is a question of the historical trail left behind, that can be and has been examined for well over one hundred and fifty years. Yes, it is possible God created all creatures instantanously 6k years ago, and I can't prove He didn't, but I can not think of any good motive that would lead Him to have nature deceive us so fully. If you were going to create your apple out of thin out, would you also create the Washington Red Delishous sticker?

A++ Brilliant!!

 

[consol]

If I were standing in front of you and you created an apple out of thin air, I would be greatly impressed! But let's further the analogy a bit, what if you did it when my back was turned, and so when I turned around you had the apple in your hand. You claim you created it out of thin air, and I certainly can't prove you didn't. But then I notice there is a Washington Red Delishous sticker on the apple. I point this out and you claim you created the sticker on the apple at the same time. A strange thing to do, but I guess you could if you wanted to. So I take the apple and examine and notice it has a wax on it that is normally sprayed on by apple growers, you of course claim you created that as well, I guess to give it an appearance of age(?). I then notice we are close to a grocery store, so I take the apple inside and compare it with the apples being sold, and notice the date on the sticker matches the apples in the store, as well as the grower. I also examine more closly and notice the apple is slighly bruised on one side, a common occurance during shipping. I wonder why you might have created an apple that by empiracle observation appears to be have a history of being grown by a Washington plantation, treated and labeled, has signs of shipment, and for all extents and purposes is indentical to the other apples that arrived in my vacinity through non supernatural means. You could have done this of course, I could not prove you did not. But may I bother you to ask why you went to such trouble to make it LOOK like the apple actually arrived through a normal apple history. What was your motive that would make your creation ex nihilio indistiguishable from the fact that the apple actually was grown just like all the others.

God can create in six days. Indeed, God can and has raised Jesus from the dead. And yet, it would appear through overwelming empiracle evidence that God created gradually, and if He did create all kinds instantanously, he has made it completly indistigushiable from that of sharing a common ancestor. There are a bazillion ways God could have created that would not fit a common ancestor, but only one that would domonstrate a common ancestor, a nested heirchy pattern that is created independetly through morphology, fossils, genetics (including genetic mutuations and errors), biogeography, etc. It is not a question of assuming there is no supernatural. I know God exists and trust in the work of His son this very day. It is a question of the historical trail left behind, that can be and has been examined for well over one hundred and fifty years. Yes, it is possible God created all creatures instantanously 6k years ago, and I can't prove He didn't, but I can not think of any good motive that would lead Him to have nature deceive us so fully. If you were going to create your apple out of thin out, would you also create the Washington Red Delishous sticker?

The only answer AV1611VET can give to this will be a flippant answer.
Well done peteos.

We won't hear from him for a while, he will be thinking up something else that can move it ever so gently away from this subject.

 

[FishFace]

He's not 53, its only the appearance of age.

I actually created him a few weeks ago and altered all your memories so you think he's existed for ages.