The Return of My Apple Challenge

[Tomk80]

Should it? Or should it let it's Author speak for it?

You are a traffic cop who arrives at the scene of an accident. The driver starts to explain what happened.

Would you reply: Excuse me, I'll determine what happened based on what I see here?

Partly. I'll listen to the witnesses. But I'll also measure the skidmarks, the dents in the car, the distance the guy on the motorcycle flew through the air.

If the guy in the car says he was driving nicely below speed limit, but the skidmarks show that he was driving at least twice as hard, I'll go with the skidmarks. People often say things that are not true. The bible was written by people. The bible contains many things that are not true.

 

[AV1611VET]

Want to tell us how being able to create a boomerang is the same as being un-superstitious and well-educated? A crow is able to use tools, but it is not educated.



Ignoring your irrelevant quote, want to actually provide some kind of argument for Bible-writers being educated? Being able to work metal does not require a good education. (Especially not an education involving critical thinking, which is specifically what I was referring to)

Not really, FishFace.

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

Your ancestors might be morons, but ours aren't.

 

[AV1611VET]

So an EN non-Omphalos apple would look quite different from an apple that naturally developed.

Assuming there were apples in Genesis 1.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

[AV1611VET]

If one week after he was created we could have had the chance to ask Adam how old he was he would have been able to tell us, "One week".

He would have answered incorrectly, wouldn't he?

Suppose we showed him a rock that was 3 billion years old, and asked him how old it was?

Should the answer, "One week old", satisfy us?

 

[AV1611VET]

This literal reading of a metaphor used by Paul in that verse earns you an F.

That metaphor got Moses banned from the Promised Land.

[bible]Numbers 20:11-12[/bible]

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Not really, FishFace.

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

Our ancestors were ignorant of most of what we know today and they were certainly superstitious. And we all must have had ancestors who were uneducated. Do you know anything at all about history?

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

Do you mean junk science like "creation science" perhaps.

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

Someone who never existed couldn't exist today so this speculation is actually rather silly.

Your

ancestors might be morons, but ours aren't.

Only a moron would equate ignorance, lack of education and holding to supersitious beliefs with lack of intelligence.

 

[Split Rock]

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

For a bible literalist, you sure do make stuff up about scripture as you go along, don't you?

Too bad her 200 IQ didn't prevent Eve from eating the fruit of "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," and giving some to her equally brilliant man. Maybe God should have foreseen that... oh wait.... he did, but did nothing to prevent original sin from corrupting his perfect universe for thousands of years to come.

 

[theFijian]

He would have answered incorrectly, wouldn't he?

Sorry I phrased that badly, my question was supposed to be:
Would Adam have answered "One week" or (whatever his embedded age was + one week) ie. 30yrs 1 week?

Would God have neglected to tell Adam how old he was? Surely he'd want to know if he was old enough to buy a drink.

Suppose we showed him a rock that was 3 billion years old, and asked him how old it was?

Should the answer, "One week old", satisfy us?

I don't know if Adam was into geology.

 

[Molal]

Not really, FishFace.

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

Your ancestors might be morons, but ours aren't.

Thankfully, your opinion does not matter. The bible states nothing about Eve in respect to her teaching ability, her knowledge or her IQ.

 

[Loudmouth]

Assuming there were apples in Genesis 1.

I am not talking about Genesis. I am taking your Apple Challenge where you create an apple from nothing in the palm of my hand. The only reason that an apple, created from nothing, would have a stem, calyx, and vasculature is to give the apple a fake history of development. Apples are not aged by the presence of a stem, calyx, or vasculature. The only reason they are there is for the development of the apple from a flower and to give the apple sustinence as it grows. An apple created from nothing never went through these phases and therefore should not have these features for the same reason that Adam should not have had a bellybutton. You have just stated that God would not give Adam a bellybutton because this would be giving Adam a fake history. Would you give your apple created from nothing a fake history?

 

[thaumaturgy]

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

AV, this is The Sin of Pride.

Be wary of it! It has lead to much suffering in the course of human affairs.

You are disgusted by evolution because you think it somehow makes your ancestors look "bad"?

Well, as they say, you can't choose your relatives!

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

Well, if anyone in the Bible had ever specifically taught Quantum Physics (not your strange "exegetical" derivations of people's actual words) I would be quite surprised. Especially considering that by your estimate it took nearly 5,900 years before any of our ancestors to get around to actually teaching quantum!

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

Wait, I'm not done! Eve had microwave-generating-eyes with which she could cook a steak just by looking at it! And Adam was blessed with an extra finger that had a beer-bottle opener on it!

Don't even get me started about the magical unicorns in the Garden of Eden! What with their magneto-levitation shoes that allowed them to hover around effortlessly so Adam and Eve could ride in style.

your ancestors might be morons, but ours aren't.

Well, my ancestors were all super-atomic geniuses just like yours! My great-great-great grandfather discovered quantum electrodynamics long before Feynman et al. I have it here in a note from him:

"Lightning flashy! Bzzzzt! Boom! Don't stand by tree in storm!"

 

[Loudmouth]

So if I saw an apple that was perfectly round with no imperfections or signs of useless structures, I could assume that it was created ex nihilo?

I would believe it. Too bad nothing like that has, or ever will, happen.

I would certainly believe that it did not grow on a tree in the normal, natural manner. New bioscaffolding techniques could, hypothetically, be used to grow a perfectly round apple. My intent is only to suggest the features that an apple created from nothing would not have and how it would have to be different from a naturally occuring apple.

I give you an A+

Now that AV has run away from his own challenge by referring to Genesis, I will allow the increase in grade level.

 

[Loudmouth]

Omphalos is not Latin; It is Greek.

I had a 50/50 chance and was too lazy to look it up. Given the flag by your name I will assume you are right.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not really, FishFace.

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

Why even mention evolution? Creationists are just as uneducated and superstitious as our ancestors.

 

[FishFace]

Not really, FishFace.

One thing that really disgusts me is the way evolution portrays our ancestors as being ignorant, uneducated, and superstitious.

What?! EVERY discovery - HOWEVER it is discovered, that shows our existing beliefis to be wrong, shows our ancestors as ignorant and uneducated, and often superstitious as well.
This is an utterly ridiculous argument - if we all were "disgusted" by this, then we would still be ignorant and uneducated (and probably superstitious) because we would still believe the sun went 'round a flat earth, we wouldn't understand the motions of the stars or planets, or even things falling to earth. We wouldn't know why we got sick or how to cure ourselves. We couldn't even set bones because that was a discovery which made those who didn't know about it ignorant and uneducated.

Your statement AV is not anti-science any more. It is anti-knowledge.

As I have said before, IMO, if Eve were alive today, she would probably be teaching advanced quantum physics, or correcting junk science.

And how could you be arrogant enough have such an "opinion?" If Eve were alive today (assuming she existed in the first place, which is there is no evidence for), you and I have no idea of what she would do.

I personally believe Adam and Eve had IQ's well in excess of 200.

I personally believe that your personal belief is predicated on fluff and air, and as such, is completely irrelevant.

Your

ancestors might be morons, but ours aren't.

Whatever you believe, it is undeniable that I know more than an ancestor of mine who was alive 1000 years ago. That doesn't make them a moron - they would only be moronic if they refused to believe what was staring them in the face. A bit like someone who refuses to believe evolution, perhaps.

 

[FishFace]

He would have answered incorrectly, wouldn't he?

Suppose we showed him a rock that was 3 billion years old, and asked him how old it was?

Should the answer, "One week old", satisfy us?

Yo, AV, the rock can't have been 3 billion years old. It had only been in existence for a week.

Prove me wrong - tell me the difference between age and time of existence.

 

[FishFace]

Too bad her 200 IQ didn't prevent Eve from eating the fruit of "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," and giving some to her equally brilliant man.

I must confess I was wondering about this. IQ of 200, but can't follow simple instructions, and can be tricked by a talking snake??

It is my personal belief that Eve clearly slipped the examiner a blank cheque with instructions, "£(IQ awarded) * 10"

Maybe God should have foreseen that... oh wait.... he did, but did nothing to prevent original sin from corrupting his perfect universe for thousands of years to come.

That's right, but it was still perfect, even though it was fundamentally flawed right from the beginning.

 

[Tomk80]

I must confess I was wondering about this. IQ of 200, but can't follow simple instructions, and can be tricked by a talking snake??

It is my personal belief that Eve clearly slipped the examiner a blank cheque with instructions, "£(IQ awarded) * 10"

Well, not necessarily. IQ measures abilities in logical reasoning and general knowledge. However, it also neglects to measure some important factors in intelligent behavior, such as the ability to be fooled by tricksters. A friend of mine can get very high scores in IQ tests but is a gullible idiot when it comes to his knowledge about people.


Perhaps Eve was the same. Bright little girl when it comes to mathematics but a gullible idiot on all other fronts.

That's right, but it was still perfect, even though it was fundamentally flawed right from the beginning.

Ah, you know, perfection as a subjective term that differs for everybody. Perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, considers something perfect when it makes (in the immortal words of Douglas Adams) "a lot of people very angry and [is] widely regarded as a bad move".

 

[tanzanos]

AV1,

You really should refrain from adding things to the bible that are not there. You exhibit the sin of pride and you bear false witness. I shudder to think what your fellow Christians will think of your shenanigans!

All Hail the mighty AV1

 

[Molal]

You know, I'm not entirely convinced that Eve was intelligent. Surprised? Well, you see she wasn't on the planet more than 10 minutes before before she screwed up and cursed us all for eternity.

Not very bright.