The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[FineLinen]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Like dressing up a Christmas tree to make it look pretty?

Dressing up the heresy aka universalism cannot raise it from the dead.

 

[FineLinen]

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

Especially= malista

Only= monon/ monos

Malista= ???

Monon. monos= ???

“He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.”

 

[FineLinen]

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Even the devil couched the lies he told in the truth,
mis-quoting God's Word to
supposedly and willfully sustain
a falsehood A.K.A. universalism.

 

[FineLinen]

"It's not about us inviting Jesus into our hearts.

It's about us coming to see that He's already included us in His."


https://www.thebvbs.com/quotes

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

ooops.... not even close to Truth in God's Plan, and at all as written in all Scripture.... no.... just more universalism heresy opposed to God and without turning to Him to be saved, without repentance, so far.

 

[FineLinen]

How do you make God laugh?

Answer=

Tell Him your plan.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You told Him and everyone here.
HE LAUGHED.
We didn't laugh - it is not funny, so many being deceived by your plan.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear slave: I did not realize the scope of my power.

His Plan=

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

 

[FineLinen]

Give them not hell, but hope and courage. Preach the everlasting love of God.– John Murray

The fact remains—we are God’s offspring, created from a foundation of goodness that has gone wrong. History since the Garden is the gradual story of how God is slowly putting that wrongness right...and will continue to do so. –Michael Phillips

For myself I can say, that if there is a God, and he is such a being as [the Universalist] describes, I can bow before him and give him all my heart. He says God is love, made the world in love, and in perfect wisdom, and well adapted to serve the divine purpose. He then made a family, all of them have sinned, and some of them have fallen very low, but God is determined, according to [the Universalist], to stand by His family, every one of them, let come what will come, till he makes all of them respectable. This standing by His family, as every true Father ought to do, is what I like in [the Universalist's]idea of God. But if there is a God, and he has created a family and will at last turn against most of them, and in burning wrath cast them into Hell forever, as [traditional Christianity] describe(s), I should hate him—he is not as good as I am, for I propose to stand by my family and every member of it for as long as I live. It is an insult to ask me to love and worship a God who is guilty of doing what we would detest in an earthly father. –Robert Ingersoll

 

[Butch5]

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Various Sources

Christian Universalism Articles by Title

How is the restitution of all things connected with Universalism?

 

[FineLinen]

How is the restitution of all things connected with Universalism?

Dear Butch: Do you see the title of this thread?

I personally prefer what the Scriptures say regarding the restitution of all things spoken by the prophets from earliest ages to the term universalism. Take a few moments and read some of the pages thus far if you can. It should assist you with some of your questions.

 

[Butch5]

Dear Butch: Do you see the title of this thread?

I personally prefer what the Scriptures say regarding the restitution of all things spoken by the prophets from earliest ages to the term universalism. Take a few moments and read some of the pages thus far if you can. It should assist you with some of your questions.

We have to remember that "what the Scriptures say" is one's interpretation of said Scripture. How this doctrine came into being has always perplexed me as there is clear Scripture that refutes it. I noticed in the article you linked that the author only went back to Origen and Clement of Alexandria. It's funny that we don't find this doctrine from earlier writers. It's also interesting that we find it coming out of Alexandria which is a known hotbed of Gnsoticism. It's also interesting that the author posed the two early creeds, the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed, and said neither precludes the idea of universalism. That's an argument from silence, a logical fallacy. They also don't preclude that Jesus played Nintendo, however, we know He didn't. To argue that He did because it's not precluded in the creeds is a ridiculous argument. I'm perplexed as to why the author would use such a ridiculous argument.

I suspect, but haven't verified, that this doctrine was a reaction to the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, which itself is a false doctrine. This is how things snowball out of control.

 

[FineLinen]

The Early Church

OK. Perhaps you're new to Universalism and you think you've stumbled across some new age, new-fangled heresy. Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?

Here are some tidbits from a very long book (about 200 pages- available online). These might might whet your appetite to learn a little more.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment is nowhere to be found in ancient Judaism. Somewhere after the close of the Old Testament and Jesus' time, this error began creeping in from the surrounding paganism. The early church was not focused on eternal destiny but rather on apologetics. However, the early church Fathers were largely Universalists. This belief came from the scripture, as it was no where to be found in the surrounding Paganism.

The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity and who were well versed in Greek (the language of the New Testament) largely did not believe in endless, torment for the sake of retribution. They believed in limited, corrective punishment based on their understanding of several key Greek words that have been mistranslated. Augustine, the first church father to really promote ET to the exlusion of other beliefs, hated Greek and studied mostly in Latin. When the power of the church shifted from the Greek fathers (Alexandrian) to the Latin, the teachings became largely corrupted.

Prior to 200 AD, there were three schools of thought, within Christianity, concerning human destiny- endless punishment, annihilation (the wicked would simply be wiped out no longer to exist) and universal salvation. But prior to this there was not much, if any controversy over these opinions. Origen, who was the first to really systematize Christianity was a universalist. Even though he was later said to have committed many errors for which he was condemned, Universalism was never among them. Universalism wasn't really attacked and ET didn't come into "favor" until around 540 AD, the beginning of the Middle Ages. Some of the most revered early church fathers were staunch universalists, who gained this understanding from scripture.

Here are the Cliff's notes:

1. During the First Century the primitive Christians did not dwell on matters of eschatology, but devoted their attention to apologetics; they were chiefly anxious to establish the fact of Christ's advent, and of its blessings to the world. Possibly the question of destiny was an open one, till Paganism and Judaism introduced erroneous ideas, when the New Testament doctrine of the apokatastasis was asserted, and universal restoration became an accepted belief, as stated later by Clement and Origen, A.D. 180-230.
2. The Catacombs give us the views of the unlearned, as Clement and Origen state the doctrine of scholars and teachers. Not a syllable is found hinting at the horrors of Augustinianism, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers.
3. Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is purificatory; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is consonant with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms.
4. Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.
5. The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.
6. Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.
7. The idea that false threats were necessary to keep the common people in check, and that the truth might be held esoterically, prevailed among the earlier Christians, so that there can be no doubt that many who seem to teach endless punishment, really held the broader views, as we know the most did, and preached terrors pedagogically.
8. The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets.
9. The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it.
10. Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine in Christendom as long as Greek, the language of the New Testament, was the language of Christendom.
11. Universalism was generally believed in the best centuries, the first three, when Christians were most remarkable for simplicity, goodness and missionary zeal.
12. Universalism was least known when Greek, the language of the New Testament was least known, and when Latin was the language of the Church in its darkest, most ignorant, and corrupt ages.
13. Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.
14. Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.
15. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
16. While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.
17. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
18. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.
19. The most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment were heathen born, and led corrupt lives in their youth. Tertullian one of the first, and Augustine, the greatest of them, confess to having been among the vilest.
20. The first advocates of endless punishment, Minucius Felix, Tertullian and Augustine, were Latins, ignorant of Greek, and less competent to interpret the meaning of Greek Scriptures than were the Greek scholars.
21. The first advocates of Universalism, after the Apostles, were Greeks, in whose mother-tongue the New Testament was written. They found their Universalism in the Greek Bible. Who should be correct, they or the Latins?
22. The Greek Fathers announced the great truth of universal restoration in an age of darkness, sin and corruption. There was nothing to suggest it to them in the world's literature or religion. It was wholly contrary to everything around them. Where else could they have found it, but where they say they did, in the Gospel?
23. All ecclesiastical historians and the best Biblical critics and scholars agree to the prevalence of Universalism in the earlier centuries.
24. From the days of Clement of Alexandria to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists. No equal number in the same centuries were comparable to them for learning and goodness.
25. The first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years.
26. In all Christendom, from A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these four, the only strictly theological schools, taught Universalism, and but one endless punishment.
27. The three earliest Gnostic sects, the Basilidians, the Carpocratians and the Valentinians (A.D. 117-132) are condemned by Christian writers, and their heresies pointed out, but though they taught Universalism, that doctrine is never condemned by those who oppose them. Irenaeus condemned the errors of the Carpocratians, but does not reprehend their Universalism, though he ascribes the doctrine to them.
28. The first defense of Christianity against Infidelity (Origen against Celsus) puts the defense on Universalistic grounds. Celsus charged the Christians' God with cruelty, because he punished with fire. Origen replied that God's fire is curative; that he is a "Consuming Fire," because he consumes sin and not the sinner.
29. Origen, the chief representative of Universalism in the ancient centuries, was bitterly opposed and condemned for various heresies by ignorant and cruel fanatics. He was accused of opposing Episcopacy, believing in pre-existence, etc., but never was condemned for his Universalism. The very council that anathematized "Origenism" eulogized Gregory of Nyssa, who was explicitly a Universalist as was Origen. Lists of his errors are given by Methodius, Pamphilus and Eusebius, Marcellus, Eustathius and Jerome, but Universalism is not named by one of his opponents. Fancy a list of Ballou's errors and his Universalism omitted; Hippolytus (A.D. 320) names thirty-two known heresies, but Universalism is not mentioned as among them. Epiphanius, "the hammer of heretics," describes eighty heresies, but he does not mention universal salvation, though Gregory of Nyssa, an outspoken Universalist, was, at the time he wrote, the most conspicuous figure in Christendom.
30. Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries. He closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it. Lecky says the age of Justinian was "the worst form civilization has assumed."
31. The first clear and definite statement of human destiny by any Christian writer after the days of the Apostles, includes universal restoration, and that doctrine was advocated by most of the greatest and best of the Christian Fathers for the first five hundred years of the Christian Era.

A careful study of the early history of the Christian religion, will show that the doctrine of universal restoration was least prevalent in the darkest, and prevailed most in the most enlightened, of the earliest centuries--that it was the prevailing doctrine in the Primitive Christian Church.

The full book is available here:

Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

 

[Butch5]

The Early Church

OK. Perhaps you're new to Universalism and you think you've stumbled across some new age, new-fangled heresy. Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?

Here are some tidbits from a very long book (about 200 pages- available online). These might might whet your appetite to learn a little more.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment is nowhere to be found in ancient Judaism. Somewhere after the close of the Old Testament and Jesus' time, this error began creeping in from the surrounding paganism. The early church was not focused on eternal destiny but rather on apologetics. However, the early church Fathers were largely Universalists. This belief came from the scripture, as it was no where to be found in the surrounding Paganism.

The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity and who were well versed in Greek (the language of the New Testament) largely did not believe in endless, torment for the sake of retribution. They believed in limited, corrective punishment based on their understanding of several key Greek words that have been mistranslated. Augustine, the first church father to really promote ET to the exlusion of other beliefs, hated Greek and studied mostly in Latin. When the power of the church shifted from the Greek fathers (Alexandrian) to the Latin, the teachings became largely corrupted.

Prior to 200 AD, there were three schools of thought, within Christianity, concerning human destiny- endless punishment, annihilation (the wicked would simply be wiped out no longer to exist) and universal salvation. But prior to this there was not much, if any controversy over these opinions. Origen, who was the first to really systematize Christianity was a universalist. Even though he was later said to have committed many errors for which he was condemned, Universalism was never among them. Universalism wasn't really attacked and ET didn't come into "favor" until around 540 AD, the beginning of the Middle Ages. Some of the most revered early church fathers were staunch universalists, who gained this understanding from scripture.

Here are the Cliff's notes:

1. During the First Century the primitive Christians did not dwell on matters of eschatology, but devoted their attention to apologetics; they were chiefly anxious to establish the fact of Christ's advent, and of its blessings to the world. Possibly the question of destiny was an open one, till Paganism and Judaism introduced erroneous ideas, when the New Testament doctrine of the apokatastasis was asserted, and universal restoration became an accepted belief, as stated later by Clement and Origen, A.D. 180-230.
2. The Catacombs give us the views of the unlearned, as Clement and Origen state the doctrine of scholars and teachers. Not a syllable is found hinting at the horrors of Augustinianism, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers.
3. Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is purificatory; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is consonant with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms.
4. Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.
5. The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.
6. Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.
7. The idea that false threats were necessary to keep the common people in check, and that the truth might be held esoterically, prevailed among the earlier Christians, so that there can be no doubt that many who seem to teach endless punishment, really held the broader views, as we know the most did, and preached terrors pedagogically.
8. The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets.
9. The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it.
10. Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine in Christendom as long as Greek, the language of the New Testament, was the language of Christendom.
11. Universalism was generally believed in the best centuries, the first three, when Christians were most remarkable for simplicity, goodness and missionary zeal.
12. Universalism was least known when Greek, the language of the New Testament was least known, and when Latin was the language of the Church in its darkest, most ignorant, and corrupt ages.
13. Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.
14. Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.
15. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
16. While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.
17. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
18. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.
19. The most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment were heathen born, and led corrupt lives in their youth. Tertullian one of the first, and Augustine, the greatest of them, confess to having been among the vilest.
20. The first advocates of endless punishment, Minucius Felix, Tertullian and Augustine, were Latins, ignorant of Greek, and less competent to interpret the meaning of Greek Scriptures than were the Greek scholars.
21. The first advocates of Universalism, after the Apostles, were Greeks, in whose mother-tongue the New Testament was written. They found their Universalism in the Greek Bible. Who should be correct, they or the Latins?
22. The Greek Fathers announced the great truth of universal restoration in an age of darkness, sin and corruption. There was nothing to suggest it to them in the world's literature or religion. It was wholly contrary to everything around them. Where else could they have found it, but where they say they did, in the Gospel?
23. All ecclesiastical historians and the best Biblical critics and scholars agree to the prevalence of Universalism in the earlier centuries.
24. From the days of Clement of Alexandria to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists. No equal number in the same centuries were comparable to them for learning and goodness.
25. The first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years.
26. In all Christendom, from A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these four, the only strictly theological schools, taught Universalism, and but one endless punishment.
27. The three earliest Gnostic sects, the Basilidians, the Carpocratians and the Valentinians (A.D. 117-132) are condemned by Christian writers, and their heresies pointed out, but though they taught Universalism, that doctrine is never condemned by those who oppose them. Irenaeus condemned the errors of the Carpocratians, but does not reprehend their Universalism, though he ascribes the doctrine to them.
28. The first defense of Christianity against Infidelity (Origen against Celsus) puts the defense on Universalistic grounds. Celsus charged the Christians' God with cruelty, because he punished with fire. Origen replied that God's fire is curative; that he is a "Consuming Fire," because he consumes sin and not the sinner.
29. Origen, the chief representative of Universalism in the ancient centuries, was bitterly opposed and condemned for various heresies by ignorant and cruel fanatics. He was accused of opposing Episcopacy, believing in pre-existence, etc., but never was condemned for his Universalism. The very council that anathematized "Origenism" eulogized Gregory of Nyssa, who was explicitly a Universalist as was Origen. Lists of his errors are given by Methodius, Pamphilus and Eusebius, Marcellus, Eustathius and Jerome, but Universalism is not named by one of his opponents. Fancy a list of Ballou's errors and his Universalism omitted; Hippolytus (A.D. 320) names thirty-two known heresies, but Universalism is not mentioned as among them. Epiphanius, "the hammer of heretics," describes eighty heresies, but he does not mention universal salvation, though Gregory of Nyssa, an outspoken Universalist, was, at the time he wrote, the most conspicuous figure in Christendom.
30. Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries. He closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it. Lecky says the age of Justinian was "the worst form civilization has assumed."
31. The first clear and definite statement of human destiny by any Christian writer after the days of the Apostles, includes universal restoration, and that doctrine was advocated by most of the greatest and best of the Christian Fathers for the first five hundred years of the Christian Era.

A careful study of the early history of the Christian religion, will show that the doctrine of universal restoration was least prevalent in the darkest, and prevailed most in the most enlightened, of the earliest centuries--that it was the prevailing doctrine in the Primitive Christian Church.

The full book is available here:

Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

I'm not new to either doctrine and have studied ETC for quite some years. However, what you've presented here is nothing more than someone's opinion. The author presents quite a few fallacies here and again arguments from silence. To say so and so didn't condemn so and so for believing in universalism is fallacious. Maybe they both believed in it and were both wrong. That's like a Baptist condemning a Presbyterian for something the Baptist believes is wrong and yet not condemning him for the belief in the Heavenly Destiny doctrine, which is wrong.

You're presenting a book as evidence from someone who clearly believes in Universalism. Again, I didn't see anything presented here that would suggest that the earliest writers supported this idea of Universalism. I don't really put much stock in the writers who came after the 325. It was at that point the Christianity began to go through many changes. I also don't give a lot of weight to what Origen and Clement of Alexandria had to say because they came out of Alexandria which was a known hotbed of Gnosticism. If we read them we can see quite a few places where their theology doesn't align with Scripture. Now, that doesn't make them wrong on the subject of Universalism, however, it does lead me to want to examine very closely what they have to say. On the other hand I give a lot of weight to the things stated by men like, Clement of Rome, Papias, Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr. The former were actually in contact with apostles and the latter only a generation away and Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. However, there was nothing in what you presented that even suggested that these men were Universalists. Just because there isn't a writing of them condemning Universalism doesn't mean they supported it. Again, that argument is a fallacy. It's an argument from silence.

The author also kept implying that they,believers in Universalism, got their belief from the Scriptures. Pretty much all Christians say they get their beliefs from the Scriptures and yet not all Christians believe the same things. One of the reasons for this is because people start with different and often wrong presuppositions. People say the "the Bible says" and then proceed to give their interpretation of what they read. The problem is they're filtering their interpretations thought their presuppositions. It's their presuppositions that determine how they understand the text they're reading. This is how Christians can read the same passage of Scripture and come away with different understandings. For example, let's look at two scientists, one a Christian creationist and another a secularist. The Christian believes God created all things. The secularist believes in evolution. They can look at the same evidence and come away with two vastly different interpretations. It's the same with Christians. It all depends on the presuppositions they start with. I'll give you another example. I don't believe in the doctrine of the "Immortal Soul". Therefore when I read in Scripture, " 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit". (Jn. 19:30 NKJ) that Jesus gave up His spirit, I interpret that as He gave up His life. On the other hand someone who (wrongly) believes in the "Immortal Soul" doctrine might interpret that as the "real" person leaving the temporary flesh body. Many Christians believe that man is a spirit that lives in a temporary flesh body and this is how they interpret that passage. That belief is wrong and thus they wrongly interpret the passage. However, that belief definitely affects how they interpret the passage. So, two Christians look at the same passage and come away with widely differing interpretations. So, can you see how saying the early writers got their Universalist beliefs from the Bible doesn't really prove anything? If their presuppositions are wrong their interpretations will likely be wrong also.

In order to claim that the earliest Christians supported Universalism one has to show where they wrote such things. Anything else is just speculation. To say they didn't condemn it doesn't mean they supported it. For example, I said the Heavenly Destiny doctrine is wrong. Irenaeus states plainly that Abraham will be resurrected and given the land that God promised him in the book of Genesis. This shows us that Irenaeus didn't believe that Abraham was going to spend eternity in Heaven. It's a plain statement, not an argument from silence, an inference, or an interpretation. It's a plain statement. That's what is necessary to make a claim that something was believed.

To sum it up, I don't see how anything you've posted here supports the doctrine of Universalism. That is was held by some or even most Christians earlier in history doesn't mean it's what the Scriptures teach. Again, the Heavenly Desitiny doctrine has been believed by millions and millions of Christians over the last 2000 years, however, that doesn't mean it's what the Scriptures teach. It's just an idea that came about by people approaching the Scriptures with the wrong presuppositions. That's how many of the modern doctrines have come into being.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I did not realize the scope of my power.

The deceptive power of evil is only over those who are deceived.
It often does affect others -
causing suffering for true believers also, as well as unbelievers,
but worst of all for those perpetrating the deception of universalism.

 

[FineLinen]

To sum it up, I don't see how anything you've posted here supports the doctrine of Universalism. That is was held by some or even most Christians earlier in history doesn't mean it's what the Scriptures teach.

Dear Butch: Since you have studied this for some time, and obviously fail to see what the Scriptures teach in this regards, I will leave it there.

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, in Him the all ends..

 

[Butch5]

Dear Butch: Since you have studied this for some time, and obviously fail to see what the Scriptures teach in this regards, I will leave it there.

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, in Him the all ends..

That's a slick way to try and avoid defending your position. I've seen it many times. I haven't failed to see what the Scriptures teach. I've explained to you that people see things based on their presuppositions. If you can show me a clear statement of Scripture that says all people will be saved, you'll have a pretty strong argument. However, I doubt that you'll be able to find one thus the doctrine is based on inferences and not clear statements. As I've shown inference can be wrong because they're based on the presuppositions one brings to the text. Critical thinking is something that is sadly missing among many Christians today. This lack of critical thinking has lead to many of the false teachings that we've seen over the last two millennia.

 

[FineLinen]

That's a slick way to try and avoid defending your position. I've seen it many times. I haven't failed to see what the Scriptures teach.

Dear Butch: I will defend my position till the cows come home! I know this, our God dwells in mystery & every aspect of Him comes by disclosure of the anointing Spirit of the Lord. I cannot, & refuse to attempt that which is in His dept.

From Him the all, through Him the all, for Him the all...