-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
- Thread starter FineLinen
- Start date
- Status
needhugs
Flibbertyjibbet
well... does it mean that God KNOWS what to do about it, but still can't? HE SAID 'Things aren't supposed to be this way, people are supposed to be one with God!!' and He was sobbing passionately!!
once Jesus sang 'emotional rescue' to me, coz i was shredded, at the end of myself, and He was coming to my rescue, but the first lines in the song are 'Is there nothing I can say? Nothing I can do, to change your mind, I'm so in love with you'.... and i thought 'Oh my God!!!!! i must be in deep doodoo if Jesus can't help change my mind!!!!'
why couldn't He help? i mean, He did help, in the end, but why was He at a loss at the time??
Upvote
0
awwww..... F.L. i wubs you tooooo, and yeah, i didn't want to go and whine about mental diagnoses somewhere... as i followed THIS thread, my heart slowly began to heal... thank you for having me
Dear Hugs: You have lots of company in this limited world. You are here because, even though you have a dog with a fancy sweater, the Father Himself loves you!
I behold a day, make that Day, when the groans of all our hearts will be over, swallowed up in the Heart of all hearts! The healing has begun: we hear the sound of music cascading down from Abba even now!
Upvote
0
needhugs
Flibbertyjibbet
yeah, i'm starting to build a peer group lol and yes, Abba loves me, i'm part of His Son's body, after all.
much healing has begun! i just read Martin Zender's book 'The First Idiot In Heaven'... and man oh man oh man, i've finally found my home!!!! i highly recommend that book!!! http://martinzender.com/books_etc.htm
Upvote
0
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?
Dear Hugs: This lady is speaking of an experience of love beyond description & light so intense it cannot be defined. Our Father moves in dimensions of Glory beyond definition. I love Him very much! I expect that little "very much" to be expanded in coming chapters of His manifestation!
I must trot off for now, there are still lunatics at the foot of the mountain (some are Calvinists) and you know how they behave LOL.
Upvote
0
needhugs
Flibbertyjibbet
i'm not sure how that addresses whether hell NDEs have deception... it is written that the soul in hades knows nothing.... so NDEs deny that... also, if we go right to heaven, wouldn't resurrected people be SUPER ANGRY?? if i was lazarus, i would have kicked Jesus in the shins for raising me from the dead lol ripped from heaven, back to this hell hole, and that's supposed to be a GOOD THING?? lol
Upvote
0
F.L. has been finding our link a mite slow! As a result I have been forced (with a small "f") to trot over to another Board with dreaded Calvinists among them.
Today F.L. gave an assignment to the lead rascal with one single question>>>>>>
Please list all passages of Scripture in both Old & New Covenants that use the word "limited"?
Do you know?
Today F.L. gave an assignment to the lead rascal with one single question>>>>>>
Please list all passages of Scripture in both Old & New Covenants that use the word "limited"?
Do you know?
Upvote
0
Time is up. The answer=
You have had long enough; FineLinen will help you with your homework!
Search= "Limited"
Your search has yielded 1 (ONE) Scripture>>>>>>>>
"YOU"
"have limited the Holy One of Israel."
Upvote
0
- Mar 31, 2012
- 10,742
- 1,665
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Messianic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Upvote
0
"God is [the] Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him. Command this & teach this."
Koine for especially = malista
Koine for only = monon
#1. God is Saviour
#2. He is not a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour.
#3. He IS Saviour of all mankind.
#4. He is Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.
#5 Especially = malista.
#6 Only = monon.
The passage before us does not say>>>>>
God is Saviour of some of mankind, and only those who trust in Him/ who believe. Command this and teach this.
Koine for especially = malista
Koine for only = monon
#1. God is Saviour
#2. He is not a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour.
#3. He IS Saviour of all mankind.
#4. He is Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.
#5 Especially = malista.
#6 Only = monon.
The passage before us does not say>>>>>
God is Saviour of some of mankind, and only those who trust in Him/ who believe. Command this and teach this.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,459
- 2,199
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
Where might this be? Calvinists are difficult to deal with. May God be with you!
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Dear ClementofA: greetings again. I have found the exercise rather simple! They behold "limited" I grasp a little of the Unlimited One. I find very little life there, not even aionial. The entire exercise is likely not going to continue: if I can find ONE hungry heart for more expansion into Abba then shazam.
You would blow there short socks off! My problem of course is how impossible I am to speak to in intelligent sentences LOL
You would blow there short socks off! My problem of course is how impossible I am to speak to in intelligent sentences LOL
Upvote
0
The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.
Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for "our God is a consuming fire;" (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.
Therefore our Lord "came to cast fire into the earth," and desired nothing more than "that it should be already kindled;" (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,
Mark 9: 49-
For this is the very "baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire," (Matt. 3: 11) that "spirit of judgment and burning," promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for "He is like a refiner's fire, and like a fuller's soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness." (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ's flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.
NOTE:
Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)
And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For "the Lord will come with fire," and "by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many." (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;
NOTE:
James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that "warfare of the service of the tabernacle" (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.
-Andrew Jukes (The Restitution Of All Things-)
One thing I keep wondering is: How can a physical thing like fire cause damage, pain or suffering to a spiritual thing like a soul?
Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for "our God is a consuming fire;" (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.
Therefore our Lord "came to cast fire into the earth," and desired nothing more than "that it should be already kindled;" (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,
Mark 9: 49-
For this is the very "baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire," (Matt. 3: 11) that "spirit of judgment and burning," promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for "He is like a refiner's fire, and like a fuller's soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness." (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ's flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.
NOTE:
Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)
And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For "the Lord will come with fire," and "by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many." (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;
NOTE:
James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that "warfare of the service of the tabernacle" (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.
-Andrew Jukes (The Restitution Of All Things-)
One thing I keep wondering is: How can a physical thing like fire cause damage, pain or suffering to a spiritual thing like a soul?
Upvote
0
The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things -Andrew Jukes-
http://alampthatburns.net/jukes/restitution/restitutionofall-contents.htm
"From Him, by Him, For Him"
http://alampthatburns.net/jukes/restitution/restitutionofall-contents.htm
"From Him, by Him, For Him"
Last edited:
Upvote
0
needhugs
Flibbertyjibbet
if somebody hasn't already read Martin Zender's book 'The First Idiot In Heaven'... i highly recommend it... finally THE TRUTH, finally HOME
http://martinzender.com/books/first_idiot_enlarged.htm
http://martinzender.com/books/first_idiot_enlarged.htm
Upvote
0
An Interesting Question
THE question of universalism is usually argued on a basis altogether misleading, i.e. as though the point involved was chiefly, or wholly, man's endless suffering. Odious and repulsive to every moral instance, as is that dogma, it is not the turning point of this controversy. The vital question is this, that the popular creed (belief) by teaching the perpetuity of evil, points to a victorious devil, and to sin as finally triumphant over God. . . . .
Victory Of Christ Or Victory Of Evi?
With all earnestness, I repeat that our choice lies between accepting the victory of Christ or of evil, and between these alternatives only. Escape from this delimma there is none. It avails nothing to diminish, as many now teach, the number of the lost, or to assert that they will be finally annihilated. All such modifications leave quite untouched the central difficulty of the popular creed (belief) -- the triumph of evil. Sin for ever present with its taint, even in a single instance, is sin triumphant. Sin, which God has been unable to remove (and has hd no resource but to annihilate the sinner) is sin triumphant and death victorious. . . . .
The Foundation=
To resume, I believe that no doctrine has ever gained so wide a currency, with so little support in Scripture, as has Probation (and so little support in all the higher Patristic theology). In fact, it is not the product of Scripture, it comes from the Philosophers, not from the Prophets, or the Apostles. . . . . Doubtless there is an element of probation in education, but, if God is our Father, the fact that dominates all else in our moral relationship to Him, is the education of humanity as His children. Certainly no education can go on without trial, but we are "tried that we may be educated, and not educated that we may be tried. . . . .
Endless sin: A Baffled Saviour?
Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin, of a baffled Savior, of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice, saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions, the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i. e. teaching that all men drawn to Christ means half mankind drawn to the devil, all things reconciled through Christ means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i. e,. that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort. It is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin -- of life victorious over every form of death -- of God triumphant over evil.
An Easy Going System?
Once more I repeat that the larger hope EMPHATICALLY AND FULLY ACCEPTS the doctrine of retribution. Those who picture universalism as some easy-going system, which refuses to face the stern facts of sin and misery and retribution, are hopelessly wrong. We press on all the impenitent the awful certainty of wrath to come, and this with far more chance of acceptance, because taught in a form that does not wound the conscience, because we dare not teach that finite sin shall receive an infinite penalty. Few things have so hindered the spread of the larger hope as the wholly and absolutely groundless notion that it implies an inadequate sense of sin, and pictures God as a weakly indulgent Being, careless of holiness, provided the happiness of His creatures is assured. In fact, it is those who teach the popular creed (belief), and not we, who make light of sin. To teach unending sin in hell, even in a solitary instance, and under any conceivable modification, is to teach the victory of evil. To us this seems at once a libel on God and an untruth -- a libel because it imputes to God a final acquiescence in sin; an untruth, because it teaches that His Omnipotence breaks down at the very moment it is most needed, and that His Love and Purity can rest with absolute complacency, while pain and evil riot and rot forever.
Here we may ask, can any light, however small, be thrown on this awful mystery of sin?
For all practical purposes, I reply, there are but two possible views of moral evil. It is endless as God Himself, which is in fact dualism, or it is temporary, and in God's mysterious plan, permitted only to serve a higher end. . . . . Certainly Scripture asserts that "God hath shut up all men unto disobedience, in order that He might have mercy upon all." Note here the stress boldly laid on God's agency, and not on man's will. The universality alike of sin and of salvation, both are equally absolute and universal.
But sin is permitted only leading up to, as involving salvation.
And thus we see not an arrangement by which man starts innocent, free to choose sin or not, but a (virtual) provision for the hereditary transmission of evil by which innocence becomes impossible to all, by which every child of Adam is, in the divine plan, "shut up unto (sin) disobedience," an arrangement inconceivable on the part of a good and loving Father, except with a settled purpose of mercy to every one. . . . .
Do the evil effects of long continued willful sin ever wholly pass away?
It may be replied, perhaps never in some cases. Some men, if I may for the moment so apply our Lord's striking words, may, in some sense, enter into life halt and maimed. Obstinate persistency in sin may leave on the spirit a wound whose evil effects are permanent. There may be, for I will not attempt to decide, a permanent weakness, though the disease of sin be cured. Two results of this deserve notice.
It furnishes us with a fresh answer to the plausible taunt cast at the larger hope as leading the careless to say, "if this be true I will have my fling, for all will come 'right at last.'" On any view, your fling I reply, will bring on you "the wrath to come" -- a retribution terrible in proportion to the willfulness of your sin. But, further, your fling may involve you in a penalty strictly everlasting. You may, though pardoned, forever suffer from the numbness and spiritual weakness which your sin leaves behind.
May not this furnish a meeting place for reasonable men on both sides? For final and universal restoration is not opposed to perpetual penalty in a certain sense, because the willful sinner, though saved, may yet suffer a perpetual loss, a paena damni loss of the highest spiritual blessedness hereafter.
-Christ Triumphant-
THE question of universalism is usually argued on a basis altogether misleading, i.e. as though the point involved was chiefly, or wholly, man's endless suffering. Odious and repulsive to every moral instance, as is that dogma, it is not the turning point of this controversy. The vital question is this, that the popular creed (belief) by teaching the perpetuity of evil, points to a victorious devil, and to sin as finally triumphant over God. . . . .
Victory Of Christ Or Victory Of Evi?
With all earnestness, I repeat that our choice lies between accepting the victory of Christ or of evil, and between these alternatives only. Escape from this delimma there is none. It avails nothing to diminish, as many now teach, the number of the lost, or to assert that they will be finally annihilated. All such modifications leave quite untouched the central difficulty of the popular creed (belief) -- the triumph of evil. Sin for ever present with its taint, even in a single instance, is sin triumphant. Sin, which God has been unable to remove (and has hd no resource but to annihilate the sinner) is sin triumphant and death victorious. . . . .
The Foundation=
To resume, I believe that no doctrine has ever gained so wide a currency, with so little support in Scripture, as has Probation (and so little support in all the higher Patristic theology). In fact, it is not the product of Scripture, it comes from the Philosophers, not from the Prophets, or the Apostles. . . . . Doubtless there is an element of probation in education, but, if God is our Father, the fact that dominates all else in our moral relationship to Him, is the education of humanity as His children. Certainly no education can go on without trial, but we are "tried that we may be educated, and not educated that we may be tried. . . . .
Endless sin: A Baffled Saviour?
Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin, of a baffled Savior, of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice, saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions, the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i. e. teaching that all men drawn to Christ means half mankind drawn to the devil, all things reconciled through Christ means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i. e,. that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort. It is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin -- of life victorious over every form of death -- of God triumphant over evil.
An Easy Going System?
Once more I repeat that the larger hope EMPHATICALLY AND FULLY ACCEPTS the doctrine of retribution. Those who picture universalism as some easy-going system, which refuses to face the stern facts of sin and misery and retribution, are hopelessly wrong. We press on all the impenitent the awful certainty of wrath to come, and this with far more chance of acceptance, because taught in a form that does not wound the conscience, because we dare not teach that finite sin shall receive an infinite penalty. Few things have so hindered the spread of the larger hope as the wholly and absolutely groundless notion that it implies an inadequate sense of sin, and pictures God as a weakly indulgent Being, careless of holiness, provided the happiness of His creatures is assured. In fact, it is those who teach the popular creed (belief), and not we, who make light of sin. To teach unending sin in hell, even in a solitary instance, and under any conceivable modification, is to teach the victory of evil. To us this seems at once a libel on God and an untruth -- a libel because it imputes to God a final acquiescence in sin; an untruth, because it teaches that His Omnipotence breaks down at the very moment it is most needed, and that His Love and Purity can rest with absolute complacency, while pain and evil riot and rot forever.
Here we may ask, can any light, however small, be thrown on this awful mystery of sin?
For all practical purposes, I reply, there are but two possible views of moral evil. It is endless as God Himself, which is in fact dualism, or it is temporary, and in God's mysterious plan, permitted only to serve a higher end. . . . . Certainly Scripture asserts that "God hath shut up all men unto disobedience, in order that He might have mercy upon all." Note here the stress boldly laid on God's agency, and not on man's will. The universality alike of sin and of salvation, both are equally absolute and universal.
But sin is permitted only leading up to, as involving salvation.
And thus we see not an arrangement by which man starts innocent, free to choose sin or not, but a (virtual) provision for the hereditary transmission of evil by which innocence becomes impossible to all, by which every child of Adam is, in the divine plan, "shut up unto (sin) disobedience," an arrangement inconceivable on the part of a good and loving Father, except with a settled purpose of mercy to every one. . . . .
Do the evil effects of long continued willful sin ever wholly pass away?
It may be replied, perhaps never in some cases. Some men, if I may for the moment so apply our Lord's striking words, may, in some sense, enter into life halt and maimed. Obstinate persistency in sin may leave on the spirit a wound whose evil effects are permanent. There may be, for I will not attempt to decide, a permanent weakness, though the disease of sin be cured. Two results of this deserve notice.
It furnishes us with a fresh answer to the plausible taunt cast at the larger hope as leading the careless to say, "if this be true I will have my fling, for all will come 'right at last.'" On any view, your fling I reply, will bring on you "the wrath to come" -- a retribution terrible in proportion to the willfulness of your sin. But, further, your fling may involve you in a penalty strictly everlasting. You may, though pardoned, forever suffer from the numbness and spiritual weakness which your sin leaves behind.
May not this furnish a meeting place for reasonable men on both sides? For final and universal restoration is not opposed to perpetual penalty in a certain sense, because the willful sinner, though saved, may yet suffer a perpetual loss, a paena damni loss of the highest spiritual blessedness hereafter.
-Christ Triumphant-
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
