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The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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FineLinen

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Dear Hillsage: That my friend was refreshing!

I know not why as a young lad of 13 misery gnawed deep within my life, crying out to know Him! Never once had I heard the Gospel of Abba & the Son of His love, but I knew there was more escaping my young life. The very first time, on the longest street of the world, my quest ended and began. I knew in a nano second why misery was a part of me! I did not belong to this world, I was simply passing thru to why I was born>>>>"that I may know Him" & His mighty resurrection Life.

Perhaps lambent glow best describes this Road, a Road of constant flashing, where the Living One leads us into Himself. My dear brother, this wee link has brought us together & for that it has been worth the effort. (pleasurable effort.)
 
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FineLinen

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God's sovereignty is everywhere to be traced: the error lies in failing to see that this sovereignty is that of Love.

Again it has been well said that there is no such thing as "pure evil ;" "so unrestrained is the inundation of the principle of good into selfishness and sin itself." - EMERSON on Circles. "There is a soul of goodness in things evil," says the greatest of Englishmen.

We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?

Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.

Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.

-Christ Triumphant-
 
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FineLinen

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76. Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?

77. Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?

78. If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?

79. Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?

80. If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally wretched, did He not will this to be their doom?

81. If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)

82. If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?

83. If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?

84. If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know there would be any use for it?

85. If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers
 
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Hillsage

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That list was actually encouraging, thanks for posting it. I never knew so many prophets, over the course of Christian history still heard 'the still small voice of God' over the loudspeaker of the religious spirit, concerning UR. Still I know it's just a drop in the bucket though. Because "wide is the path that leads to destruction" and many more appear on 'that path' for sure.

 
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FineLinen

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Dear slavejeff: Keep up the fine work. Perhaps some day you will appear on this little list! You will need to make considerable advance in spiritual dimensions to stand with these mighty men and women>>>>considerable! The choice is not yours however: begin with the anointing of the Holy One and allow Him to open your deaf ears and enhance your vision beyond where you presently dwell. From there allow Him to draw/drag off/ impel you with power to Himself!

On second thought: do not allow Him!
 
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FineLinen

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The problem with lists is they always miss somebody!

Lets all go to the circus!

Welcome P.T. Barnum


http://www.pacificuu.org/publ/univ/writings/barnum_why.html#barnum
 
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FineLinen

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Hillsage

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FineLinen

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sdowny717 posted

"BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, this is not of YOURSELF being the gift of GOD.
And you don't have the mind of those infants your talking about, God can cause faith to spring up in them same as a rock can praise the Lord.

That is very interesting! I wonder if those in every dimension of the heavens, the earth and the underworld will experience faith to spring up?

"That in/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow & every tongue confess, You are Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Questions:

1. What does it mean to be In/en Jesus

2. What is the scope of the heavens, the earth & the underworld?

3. What does every mean?

4. Is the bowing & confession IN the Name by perfunctory genuflections?
 
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rturner76

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If we are going to really put our faith in Universalism (and I have at times) we have to admit that the Bible contradicts itself on this issue. Time and time again Jesus says we must obey God and or follow him in order to have eternal life. He speaks over and over about the day of judgement. As a Universalist how are these contradictions to no requirement to gain eternal life dealt with? Do we ignore the places where Jesus and the Apostles directly say we will be judged? For example:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
"That in/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow & every tongue confess, You are Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Did you read the rest of this passage? It sounds different when you look at the whole thing:
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God"

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of ungodly men

And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil. The Bible seems to be pretty clear that we will be judged.

I mean it makes perfect sense that God would not create someone just to send them to hell for eternity but the Bible doesn't seem to follow that logic.
 
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FineLinen

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ClementofA

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If we are going to really put our faith in Universalism (and I have at times) we have to admit that the Bible contradicts itself on this issue.

It's interesting you mention that, as while reading an online discussion over the weekend i happened upon the following quote from the book "The Evangelical Universalist" by Robin Parry:


for a free preview:

https://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-...&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Evangelical+Universalist



Time and time again Jesus says we must obey God and or follow him in order to have eternal life. He speaks over and over about the day of judgement. As a Universalist how are these contradictions to no requirement to gain eternal life dealt with?

Briefly put the typical Universalist position is that eventually all, whether in this life or postmortem, will meet any requirements necessary for salvation & to spend eternity with the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether they go directly to heaven, or must first pass through some sort of purgatory to arrive there. Hence the oft used term "Purgatorial Universalism". Such is evident in many Universalistic writings, e.g. some of the Early Church Fathers (ECF). For additional & more lengthy remarks re your question, including some ECF quotes, i'd suggest this post:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-30#post-72154410


Do we ignore the places where Jesus and the Apostles directly say we will be judged? For example:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Certainly not. We address them, as in:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-there-salvation-after-death.8041377/page-7#post-72135392

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2607


continued in the next post
 
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ClementofA

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That quote is from Romans 14:10-12, whereas the poster was referring to Phillipians 2:10-11:

9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee shall be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, 11 and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

Which is commented upon here:


and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13)



continued in my next post
 
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ClementofA

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Universalists tend to take references to judgement in the Scriptures as Love Omnipotent's harsh but corrective measures employed for the good of the offender, rather than purely punitive or vindictive. And that any such judgement texts in the New Testament are often (1) referring to what came to pass shortly thereafter in the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 A.D and/or (2) referring to the aforementioned Purgatorial Universalism, for example:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.



And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil.

I think it likely you'll find most if not all of them addressed on the forums here, or at the following sites:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

and in the many books written on Universalism, e.g. Patristic Universalism:

https://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/0559563159

The Inescapable Love of God:

https://www.amazon.com/Inescapable-...rd_wg=saBiY&psc=1&refRID=Y0GB1D5ZP1QZ5F18R6PP

Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God (Paulist Press):

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Goats-H...&keywords=good+goats+healing+our+image+of+god

If there are any specific texts you'ld like to discuss, such as in that group of 20, feel free to post them in this topic.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear rturner76: My faith is not in the glorious message of universal reconciliation but in the God who raises the dead. There may seem like contradictions in the words of our sacred Canon but in the end of the day the One who made us leads us to behold a clear message with no contradiction in the slightest. Two foundations for this are faith which must come from Him & poverty of spirit which knows only in part and again is dependent on His appearing by the unction that opens our eyes and ears!

The passage in Phil. chapter 2, as you likely know has a foundation in the prophet Isaiah and finds further enhancement in St Pauls words in the Philippian passage. Being IN Christ Jesus is a glorious fact, all beings in all dimensions of Abba's world ultimately bowing in celestial worship IN that glorious Name another! I will attempt to write further on this later. In the meantime, may his Presence lead us to bursting springs from Above.

Isa. 45=

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45&version=NIV
 
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FineLinen

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Friends: we are nearing the 1/2 mark of the questions requiring answers. I trust you who read these words will find the depths of your being finding the answers.
 
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