The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[FineLinen]

Sure it's a Pauline expression that indicates the blessings and callings for the faithful.

Union in Christ Jesus comes as a result of the call of God as He draws each one to Himself. For me, it began 60 years ago. The final demonstration radiates out to every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld. All dimensions ultimately worship IN the Name of Jesus. Every last one, in every dimension!

 

[ClementofA]

People are dead in sin if they do not believe in Christ, and that means they do not have life, and they wont see life either.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

If you shall not see life, well then, your going to see nothing but death, physical and spiritual death.
All naturally born creatures see natural death. Only spiritually born of God people have spiritual life.
Holy angels never die, since they did not sin. The devil and his angels, and the demons are all spiritually dead too, otherwise they would live eternally with God having the divine nature of eternal life. Interesting to think the devil who is a spirit is spiritually dead. The slave does not abide in the house of the Lord forever, all those enslaved to sin are separated from life and die eventually being cut off the true vine, Christ who is the resurrection and the life..

Those who are spiritually dead are not in Christ.

Some more literal versions read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

I have thought about it, and rethought it and presently revisiting the topic again.

My friend Mark: you take all the time you so desire. It may take less than the 10 years Hillsage took, but in the end as you wait before Him, your revisiting will bear fruit!

My friend Jonathan Mitchell has taken 22 years translating the koine Greek. You will hopefully appreciate the following>>>>

ETERNAL (EONIAN) LIFE – ALL – JUDGMENT

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

 

[ClementofA]

You guys try to pass yourself as well versed and pious but truth is I don't think you care what the Scriptures teach.

Clearly you have no clue.

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.


Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Their names are not found written in the book of life, no they are not the redeemed of the Lord.

Of course those in the LOF are not - yet - in the book of life. But they shall be:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

i will leave it to others stronger than i...

i can no longer STAND to even hear about the hate, the fear, the cruelty

i just got up, and i'm going to work... have 'fun' y'all

My dear Hugs: you likely are the only one here on this link with the sense to head for work. The "fun" has exceeded all fun times in past days. I believe this old codger will head to a place to rest my weary bones. We leave Mark in good hands. Pay close attention to ClementofA and Pneuma. Your search will be easier, but without an unction from Above the hope is alusive at best!

 

[mark kennedy]

God loves the whole world (Jn.3:16). He's not an eternal sadist.

No God offers you a choice, the truth of God or a lie but men suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

I count three ways a person can be cast into the lake of fire here.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Do you see the words "SONS OF MEN" or "Lord's people":

Well I certainly wasn't expecting a fire and brimstone sermon in this thread.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…



Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). Then God will be "all in all" (v.28), and all who were in Adam will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Stop right there, being in Adam isn't a passport into Christ, your equivocating the two and I've done extensive expositions of Romans. I just know you didn't think you were going to slip that past.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

That's two equivocation fallacies in one post, surely you don't equivocate death and slavery. Enjoyed the dramatic way you said it but hyperbole begins to lose it's charm after a while.

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

No actually that's not the only things you can conclude, there are numerous, far better options.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Nothing anywhere about being released from.perdition.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night...and whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10-15)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Paul qualifies that statement verse 1, 'Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:1)

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other

No where does Paul suggest that all who are judged sinners in Adam will be the righteousness of God in Christ, it's absurd. In Christ all are saved but the only way you are in Christ is by grace through faith, in the power of the Holy Spirit. Not all come to faith in Christ, so they perish apart from Christ because at some level, in a permenant way, they reject the gospel.

 

[mark kennedy]

Union in Christ Jesus comes as a result of the call of God as He draws each one to Himself. For me, it began 60 years ago. The final demonstration radiates out to every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld. All dimensions ultimately worship IN the Name of Jesus. Every last one, in every dimension!

Sure they do if they survive final judgment. In Christ is a key Pauline expression, if not in Christ you are lost. Now my journey has been a mere 35 years but in that time I took the pains to learn the Scriptures, even pursuing a bachelors in Bible and theology. The subject matter here is something I only recently started taking seriously but I thought you guys were just some harmless Jehovah's Witnesses spouting something from the Watchtower and tract society. Turns out you not but a much more hardened movement. So since I have an interest in apologetics and pursue work in doctrine I decided I take a closer look at this. My friends who told me about this I thought were exaggerating, they didnt tell the half of it. It's Ben a while since I went wholesale apologetic on an issue but this one warrents it. Let the expositions roll on.

 

[mark kennedy]

Wrong! And who cares what - you - [erroneously] think about us? Keep your vain imaginations to yourself. See also Rev.21:8 about liars.

You twist the Scriptures into pretzels and you don't think your going to be confronted by someone who isn't biblically illiterate, think again.

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

Yea until Satan is released and brings the armies of Gog and Magog to surround it.

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

How do you know those kings weren't sent out from Jerusalem in the first place?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

Or the kings of the earth who committed fornication with Babylon were cast into he'll to await final judgment and new kings were anointed to replace the ones who worshipped the image of the beast and took the mark.

Ive addressed the rest of it, just wanted to give that part a closer look.

 

[mark kennedy]

My friend Mark: you take all the time you so desire. It may take less than the 10 years Hillsage took, but in the end as you wait before Him, your revisiting will bear fruit!

My friend Jonathan Mitchell has taken 22 years translating the koine Greek. You will hopefully appreciate the following>>>>

ETERNAL (EONIAN) LIFE – ALL – JUDGMENT

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

An interesting attempt at an exegesis but I'm not seeing much there supporting universalism.

 

[needhugs]

Oh stop with the mellodrama, its not hate or fear or cruel to speak the truth in love. It's what happens when you tell Christians one thing and the Scrptures say another. Have a nice day at work.

HEY!!!!! fudge off!!!!
i wasn't talking about YOU and YOUR pathetic attempts to make inroads into our bliss...
i was talking about 'the hate, the fear, the cruelty' of THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL
it drove me insane, and I don't like to listen to the people who love it, not anymore...
i would have talked with you if you had watched the videos, but you are not here to learn... so i'm just going to treat you like the troll you are...
THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL is not melodrama, you git... if you THOUGHT about what it REALLY means, i think you would go insane too... unless you are a sociopath or a psychopath...

 

[mark kennedy]

HEY!!!!! fudge off!!!!
i wasn't talking about YOU and YOUR pathetic attempts to make inroads into our bliss...
i was talking about 'the hate, the fear, the cruelty' of THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL
it drove me insane, and I don't like to listen to the people who love it, not anymore...
i would have talked with you if you had watched the videos, but you are not here to learn... so i'm just going to treat you like the troll you are...
THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL is not melodrama, you git... if you THOUGHT about what it REALLY means, i think you would go insane too... unless you are a sociopath or a psychopath...

You bring this up in the controversial theology forum, knowing it will provoke a reaction from Bible believing Christian, and complain your bliss is being disturbed. I know what your talking about and God's remedy for the children of perdition is to destroy body and soul in the lake of fire. What your teaching is contrary to Scripture, expect to be corrected eArly and often. If you were having problems over this doctrine the reaction is to repent and recieve the Savior by faith. Not flatly contradict the clear testimony of Scripture.

 

[needhugs]

You bring this up in the controversial theology forum, knowing it will provoke a reaction from Bible believing Christian, and complain your bliss is being disturbed. I know what your talking about and God's remedy for the children of perdition is to destroy body and soul in the lake of fire. What your teaching is contrary to Scripture, expect to be corrected eArly and often. If you were having problems over this doctrine the reaction is to repent and recieve the Savior by faith. Not flatly contradict the clear testimony of Scripture.

this isn't my thread, i didn't bring it up lol
i don't mind provoking a reaction in people who are WILLING TO LEARN
and i said my bliss WASN'T being disturbed!!!
if God would have corrected me early and often, i would have listened
but He has shown me the truth.
and you flatter yourself if you think you can 'correct' something God has settled my heart in.

 

[mark kennedy]

this isn't my thread, i didn't bring it up lol
i don't mind provoking a reaction in people who are WILLING TO LEARN
and i said my bliss WASN'T being disturbed!!!
if God would have corrected me early and often, i would have listened
but He has shown me the truth.
and you flatter yourself if you think you can 'correct' something God has settled my heart in.

What I've been shown are some careless and erroneous expositions these Universalist evangelists can't defend. I'm glad your blissfull, I'm feeling pretty good about the subject matter myself. I've did a fair amount of reading since being introduced to the subject matter and you guys haven't even scratched the surface of the proof text burden. We will see how it goes and I'm here to learn, but my interest is how Universalists reason, I already know how they do an exposition and it's less then impressive.

 

[needhugs]

What I've been shown are some careless and erroneous expositions these Universalist evangelists can't defend. I'm glad your blissfull, I'm feeling pretty good about the subject matter myself. I've did a fair amount of reading since being introduced to the subject matter and you guys haven't even scratched the surface of the proof text burden. We will see how it goes and I'm here to learn, but my interest is how Universalists reason, I already know how they do an exposition and it's less then impressive.

that's silly, if you REFUSE to watch a video that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL will be saved... you could have seen how we reason... we reason with reason of course
but you are not willing to watch something that proves our position, so i see no reason to keep talking to you, and i'll leave you to the boys.

 

[mark kennedy]

that's silly, if you REFUSE to watch a video that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL will be saved... you could have seen how we reason... we reason with reason of course
but you are not willing to watch something that proves our position, so i see no reason to keep talking to you, and i'll leave you to the boys.

Look if you have some video you want me to watch then link it, I assume it's on YouTube. You keep saying you sent it to me and I got no idea what your talking about. As far as toys, what toys, I spent a couple of days reviewing universalism from a biblical perspective which is how I cam to take the subject matter seriously.

 

[FineLinen]

No God offers you a choice, the truth of God or a lie but men suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Sorry Mark: no choices! "You did not (NOT) choose Me">>>>>

"I chose you..."

 

[needhugs]

Look if you have some video you want me to watch then link it, I assume it's on YouTube. You keep saying you sent it to me and I got no idea what your talking about.

here is the video that proves all means ALL (every one)

and here is the other video on the lake of fire...

have a little fun with God
i don't know what you mean by 'toys' ... i said i would leave you to the 'BOYS' lol

 

[FineLinen]

An interesting attempt at an exegesis but I'm not seeing much there supporting universalism.

Dear Mark: It is evident you do not see! I assure you much is evading your grasp, much indeed!

 

[mark kennedy]

Sorry Mark: no choices! "You did not (NOT) choose Me">>>>>

"I chose you..."

What on earth could that possibly mean, it certainly doesn't pertain to the passage I paraphrased from Romans 1.

 

[mark kennedy]

Dear Mark: It is evident you do not see! I assure you much is evading your grasp, much indeed!

I don't think so, I think you guys have ran out of material, that's what I think. That's how it usually happens to, first there is this long discussion with expositions and detailed discussion. Pretty soon the posts shrink in a downward spirals until all that is left is pedantic personal remarks, the inevitable ad hominem. I understand you well, I just disagree because you don't know the Scriptures. Basic skills could have guided you around these hazards but you seem oblivious to the natural context these verses you quote are taken from.