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Universalism is an afront to the gospel and has no biblical justification. The Scriptures teach a very different gospel, one that provides salvation to all who are in Christ, just as all in Adam all die in Christ all live. Except not all recieve the gospel, having eyes see not, having ears hear not.
He does save all that are in Christ, call it failure if you will, because it's just hyperbole. God's nature does not change, the righteous requirements for salvation are based on God's divine attributes and eternal nature (Rom. 1:18-21). All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, who made this known but men suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The failure is our, our own conscience testifies against us, noe accusing now defending.
What God has done now is to reveal the righteousness of God in Christ, Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which a man must be saved. But some still cling to treachery and deciet, after Jesus washed his feet Judas got up and went out and betrayed him.for a price. About him Jesus said none will be lost except the son of perdition. Every life that comes into the world is in the Lambs book of life, until they go onto perdition, then their name is blotted out. God loses none that come to the light that gives light to every soul that comes into the world. But memo have loved darkness more then the light, but to as many as recieve him he gave power to become children of God. As the proverb says, all who hate me love death, if you curse the light and flee to the darkness then the darkness owns you forever.
God did not fail us, some made the moral failure in Adam a permenant condition by not believing the light of the gospel, that made known the righteousness of God in Christ leaving all without excuse. To go onto perdition is a personal choice just like repentance, just like God's soverign choice in election. When you choose to reject the gospel there is no longer any provision for sin, there is nok means for attaining rightesness. God indeed provided for the salvation of all but many are called but few are chosen. If your eye be whole the body is full of light, but if the eye be darkness, how great is that darkness.
Universalism is an afront to the gospel and has no biblical justification. The Scriptures teach a very different gospel, one that provides salvation to all who are in Christ, just as all in Adam all die in Christ all live. Except not all recieve the gospel, having eyes see not, having ears hear not.
It is not God's failure that the children of perdition are cast bodily into the lake of fire, there is a choice. Choose life.
Your quoting verses about whom the Lord loves, that is His people. Whom the Lord loves he chastens, and He disciplines everyone whom He receives.The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.
2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.
Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!
2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)
A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).
Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ???????
(aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:
"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."
https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/
As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":
A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331
Compare that above statement to:
"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."
Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:
... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)
Here we see destruction was temporary:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)
"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/book-review-the-inescapable-love-of-god-part-5/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213
Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:
"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.
"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).
"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.
"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.
"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."
http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4087
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
Dear Mark: The Gospel is "good news" announced by angelic hosts who proclaim joy for all people. If your gospel is true joy will be limited to a few choice individuals, with the mass of mankind never ever knowing the joy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! In fact, the mass of Adam 1 will not only experience joy, they have the pleasure of unending misery to look forward to.
The second death is death, not life. DEAD, they are dead, dead, dead.
Is that a fact! I hate to disclose the fact that the Risen Christ preached to the "disobedient" dead, dead, dead. Would you like to tell us what the results were?
"..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."
First of all universalism categorically rejects the doctrine of hell, that is by definition eternal damnation. I don't actually believe in eternal torture, I believe the body and soul are destroyed in the lake of fire. Be that as it may I may choose to watch some video I may not but all that is required to be worthy of this conversation is to be a member of Christian Forums. I'm all in favor of being built up in the faith by fellow believers but the gospel is clear on one point.le sigh... surely you must know that we know YOU are the one flagrantly denying the doctrine of Christ, nobody here denies a 'hell' or the lake of fire... all you have to do is get in an argument about the real words behind 'forever' and 'eternal'...
i thought i would make it easy on you and PROVE to you that God would save 'ALL'... but i'll bet you didn't watch that video either...
now all of us come from where you are now... we WERE believers in eternal torture... we knew that doctrine inside and out... so we do not have to study to understand your point of view.
but YOU on the other hand, if you want to be worthy of this discussion, you must study.
watch the videos i sent to you.
all your doctrine is 'Oh my dog!!!! it says 'FIRE' and it says 'FOREVER'' aaaahhh, burning forever for unbelievers!!!
our doctrine comes from years of studying and seeking the Lord about a truth that means we will be hated by other Christians...
Romans 8 is about the glory which shall be revealed in the children of God, not all people.
Not everyone is a child of God, some are children of the devil.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
First of all universalism categorically rejects the doctrine of hell, that is by definition eternal damnation. I don't actually believe in eternal torture, I believe the body and soul are destroyed in the lake of fire. Be that as it may I may choose to watch some video I may not but all that is required to be worthy of this conversation is to be a member of Christian Forums. I'm all in favor of being built up in the faith by fellow believers but the gospel is clear on one point.
He that believes in him (christ) is not condemned but he that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18)
So you learned the doctrine of hell, that covers maybe 21 proof texts if memory serves. Universalism denies everyone of then and to reject the eternal consequences of rejecting Christ is to deny the gospel. You might have some sentimental reasons for embracing universalism but none of them are biblical. So far the meager appeals to a biblical basis has faltered at every turn. The truth is I have studied and I have no clue what video your talking about. It's my practice to revisit the Scriptures when confronted with doctrines that are contrary to the gospel. I've done a fair amount of study on the subject matter and clearly universalism is contrary to the clear testimony of Scripture.
Your quoting verses about whom the Lord loves, that is His people. Whom the Lord loves he chastens, and He disciplines everyone whom He receives.
The Lord will not cast off forever, is being spoken of in regards to the Lord's people, not the unbelieving world.
The second death is death, not life. DEAD, they are dead, dead, dead. And they will never have life anyone who goes there to the second death.
Their names are not found written in the book of life, no they are not the redeemed of the Lord.
If anyone is not redeemed, who are doomed to destruction, then they are destroyed.
Leviticus 27:29 No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death.
I have thought about it, and rethought it and presently revisiting the topic again. You don't deny there is a he'll just that it's permenant which is the exact opposite of what the Scriptures teach. God provides the gospel, the righteousness that is by faith and men have loved darkness more then light. The books are opened, the dead are judged and the children of perdition are cast bodily into the lake of fire. That's the clear testimony of Scripture, it's Jesus or hell. You keep chanting that God fails if one perished and that's just just emotive rhetoric. You guys try to pass yourself as well versed and pious but truth is I don't think you care what the Scriptures teach. You think it's mean or weak that God can't save everyone when God cannot change is righteous and holy nature. You either recieve the divine nature through Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit or you perish in the flames of perdition, there is no third option. That's not my opinion, the Scriptures are crystal clear on this point.Mark posted
"First of all universalism categorically rejects the doctrine of hell, that is by definition eternal damnation"
Not so! Hell is consummated in the Lake of Fire & Divinity/theion/Deity! If hell prevails, God has failed again! No death, no hell, nothing separates His creation from Himself: NOTHING!
You need to rethink "eternal" & damnation (judgement). You do know that damnation is only found in KJV? Eternal only relates to the Aidios God and is in union with pantokrator!
You take it all way out of context. The creation will be delivered from death, but people who do not believe will not be saved. All does not include unbelievers, only believers have life emphasized many times in scripture.I suggest you read what you have highlighted......"The whole of created life shall be delivered." Not some of created life! The whole of created life shall be delivered! What part of "whole" are you missing?
Sure it's a Pauline expression that indicates the blessings and callings for the faithful. The Father blessed us with all the heavenly places, ' in Christ' (Eph. 1:3). In whom (mark that) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. (Eph. 1:7). This is all over the New Testament but Paul puts special emphasis on being ' In Christ'. In Johns Gospel, chapter 6 Jesus has just feed the 5000 and they want to make him.king by force. He tells them all you care about is that you ate and you help us were full.Hello again Mark: Will you please tell us what it means to be "IN" Christ?
I think there are many saved that never heard the gospel, it only makes sense if they never had the opportunity.You take it all way out of context. The creation will be delivered from death, but people who do not believe will not be saved. All does not include unbelievers, only believers have life emphasized many times in scripture.
Some fine day of God's choice there will be new heavens and a new earth.
Oh stop with the mellodrama, its not hate or fear or cruel to speak the truth in love. It's what happens when you tell Christians one thing and the Scrptures say another. Have a nice day at work.i will leave it to others stronger than i...
i can no longer STAND to even hear about the hate, the fear, the cruelty
i just got up, and i'm going to work... have 'fun' y'all
You take it all way out of context. The creation will be delivered from death, but people who do not believe will not be saved. All does not include unbelievers, only believers have life emphasized many times in scripture.
Some fine day of God's choice there will be new heavens and a new earth.
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