The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Lazarus Short]

Wow I’m really struggling to understand how this is even remotely relevant to my post. Are you suggesting that everyone must go thru hell to be reconciled to God?

Do not mistake God's Fire with "Hellfire."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Not in the NASB, it actually uses the term Sheol. Sheol is quite different than hell, both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol but in separate areas. For the most part the OT is pretty vague about the details of Sheol.

Agreed - I should have said "KJV."

 

[FineLinen]

We were talking about pas not ta panta. Please show me where ta panta is in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

1 Corinthians 15:28

28 ὅταν (when) G3752 Conj δὲ (And) G1161 Conj ὑποταγῇ (subjected) G5293 V-ASP-3S αὐτῷ (himself) G846 PPro-DM3S τὰ (the) G3588 Art-ANP πάντα (all) G3956 Adj-ANP τότε (then) G5119 Adv καὶ (also) G2532 Conj αὐτὸς (himself) G846 PPro-NM3S ὁ (the) G3588 Art-NMS υἱὸς (Son) G5207 N-NMS ὑποταγήσεται (subjected) G5293 V-FIP-3S τῷ (the) G3588 Art-DMS ὑποτάξαντι (subjected) G5293 V-APA-DMS αὐτῷ (himself) G846 PPro-DM3S τὰ (the) G3588 Art-ANP πάντα (all) G3956 Adj-ANP ἵνα (so) G2443 Conj ᾖ (be) G1510 V-PSA-3S ὁ (the) G3588 Art-NMS θεὸς (God) G2316 N-NMS πάντα (all) G3956 Adj-NNP ἐν (in) G1722 Prep πᾶσιν (all) G3956 Adj-DNP

Dear BNR: Ta panta is not the word used in reference to all things being subjected to the Master, the Lord Jesus Christ by hupotasso. The word is the radical all of pas. Shall we review Dr. Robert Young, or Vines, or the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament for what the scope of pas is?

 

[FineLinen]

Wow I’m really struggling to understand how this is even remotely relevant to my post. Are you suggesting that everyone must go thru hell to be reconciled to God?

Dear BNR: Andrew Jukes is not speaking of hell, he is expressing the fact that the road for all (the radical all) is in/thru Divine Fire, and every coming of Christ.

You failed to disclose the difference between our God the consuming fire, in whom we are destined to dwell, and the Lake of Pur whose central ingredient is Theion, linked with theioo and Theos. As an old timer, patience is one of my defining virtues LOL.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear BNR: Ta panta is not the word used in reference to all things being subjected to the Master, the Lord Jesus Christ by hupotasso. The word is the radical all of pas. Shall we review Dr. Robert Young, or Vines, or the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament for what the scope of pas is?

Yes I see it now, please excuse me while I humbly attempt to take my foot out of my mouth. Ta panta is in fact in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes I see it now, please excuse me while I humbly attempt to take my foot out of my mouth. Ta panta is in fact in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Dear BNR: My friend, whether the word is the radical all of pas, or "the all" of ta panta matters zilch. In the end of Father's great Plan in Himself, all is brought into subjection in and thru the Master of Reconciliation, Christ Jesus the Lord of Glory!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear BNR: Andrew Jukes is not speaking of hell, he is expressing the fact that the road for all (the radical all) is in/thru Divine Fire, and every coming of Christ.

You failed to disclose the difference between our God the consuming fire, in whom we are destined to dwell, and the Lake of Pur whose central ingredient is Theion, linked with theioo and Theos. As an old timer, patience is one of my defining virtues LOL.

No I failed to see how changing the subject showed any relevance to the conversation. One minute we’re talking about Hell the next we’re talking about God. I did recognize Christ’s qualities in the example given I just didn’t see how it was relevant to the conversation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear BNR: My friend, whether the word is the radical all of pas, or "the all" of ta panta matters zilch. In the end of Father's great Plan in Himself, all is brought into subjection in and thru the Master of Reconciliation, Christ Jesus the Lord of Glory!

Apparently Luke would disagree.

 

[FineLinen]

The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for “our God is a consuming fire;” (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord “came to cast fire into the earth,” and desired nothing more than “that it should be already kindled;” (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,

Mark 9: 49-

For this is the very “baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire,” (Matt. 3: 11) that “spirit of judgment and burning,” promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for “He is like a refiner’s fire, and like a fuller’s soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness.” (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ’s flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God’s purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, “He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire.” (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)

And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For “the Lord will come with fire,” and “by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that “warfare of the service of the tabernacle” (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.

-Andrew Jukes-

Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

 

[FineLinen]

No I failed to see how changing the subject showed any relevance to the conversation. One minute we’re talking about Hell the next we’re talking about God. I did recognize Christ’s qualities in the example given I just didn’t see how it was relevant to the conversation.

Dear BNR: There are many things in our Father's great plan you as yet do not see. Opening blind eyes and deaf ears is strictly in His Dept. We on this link can only present what we have experienced by His great love and grace, and trust Him to touch those He sees fit for more of Him.

 

[Elixir]

Dear BNR: Andrew Jukes is not speaking of hell, he is expressing the fact that the road for all (the radical all) is in/thru Divine Fire, and every coming of Christ.

You failed to disclose the difference between our God the consuming fire, in whom we are destined to dwell, and the Lake of Pur whose central ingredient is Theion, linked with theioo and Theos. As an old timer, patience is one of my defining virtues LOL.

TBH I consider myself a Universalist, and I am quite intrigued by this topic. Still, seeing the discussion bring up this aspect of the nature of God, I simply must inquire about the nature of of God.

I don't want to go out on a limb here and risk embarrassing myself over something that, well, I've had basically since birth / earliest memories. I've always been curious of the consuming fire aspect of God. Is it pray tell like being eaten? Seriously, all our lives we eat, eat eat, thousands of thousands of things dying for us to live. It's perhaps been a heart's desire I've had since birth, It's been my wish as something at the top of the food chain all the time to experience being consumed. When I refer to this though it comes up with something by definition as vore (vorarephilia, but that's eros). I though this condition/desire was rare but more and more this "impossible thing" seems to be alluded to here and there.


Before I forget, I think of Jesus too when he says things like,

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Jn 6:56–58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


I would the same myself (except Jesus gets to be eaten by everything I guess). Maybe it isn't so impossible with verses like this,

"
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. 36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Mk 10:35–40). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
"

 

[FineLinen]

TBH I consider myself a Universalist, and I am quite intrigued by this topic. Still, seeing the discussion bring up this aspect of the nature of God, I simply must inquire about the nature of of God.

I don't want to go out on a limb here and risk embarrassing myself over something that, well, I've had basically since birth / earliest memories. I've always been curious of the consuming fire aspect of God. Is it pray tell like being eaten? Seriously, all our lives we eat, eat eat, thousands of thousands of things dying for us to live. It's perhaps been a heart's desire I've had since birth, It's been my wish as something at the top of the food chain all the time to experience being consumed. When I refer to this though it comes up with something by definition as vore (vorarephilia, but that's eros). I though this condition/desire was rare but more and more this "impossible thing" seems to be alluded to here and there.


Before I forget, I think of Jesus too when he says things like,

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Jn 6:56–58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


I would the same myself (except Jesus gets to be eaten by everything I guess). Maybe it isn't so impossible with verses like this,

"
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. 36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Mk 10:35–40). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
"

Dear Elixer: Welcome to you. Do not worry regarding going out on a limb. This Road, like all aspects of following the Lamb in the withersoever, will demand much more than any of us are capable of giving, requiring the faith of the Son of God arising within us at every new episode.

You are now at the age these aspects began crashing in on me. And what a wonderful crash it is! The following is found in Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin, a book F.L. has in my archives.

Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new." -Christ Triumphant-

 

[FineLinen]

Christ Triumphant -Thomas Allin-

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things -Andrew Jukes->>>

The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes (Index)

 

[Elixir]

Dear Elixer: Welcome to you. Do not worry regarding going out on a limb. This Road, like all aspects of following the Lamb in the withersoever, will demand much more than any of us are capable of giving, requiring the faith of the Son of God arising within us at every new episode.

You are now at the age these aspects began crashing in on me. And what a wonderful crash it is! The following is found in Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin, a book F.L. has in my archives.

Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new." -Christ Triumphant-

Thank you very much ! That sheds some light on fire as the scriptures speak, which seems to devour everything as a process of sorts rather than any one kind of thing here that can be said to be an embodiment of that. So, anything I may have felt particularly called to (here I am most partial to the human form as being one myself) it would be of fire anyway.

My only thing though, is that I'd seek to be of the form of the food in paradise, rather than to be an eater of it (I come across reports of food in Heaven in Near Death Experience reports, but nobody has ever been consumed in one of these of the tens of thousands I've searched through in a database or two - only one report has anyone ever said anything like they were going to be consumed (but at the last moment this was stopped and they lived)). So, pray tell, I hope not to see my desire itself dissolve into fire, hopefully it has been there to be fulfilled rather than as a weakness or thorn in my side to be dealt with.

I had thought that maybe everyone ends up consumed in some way, perhaps, as something that is so wonderful and hidden in the treasures of Heaven that that one report and the few that say there food in Heaven (one must wonder if everything there is alive, that food is not inanimate and experiences everything about being eaten like it's sentient) do not mean that just a few people get the experience of being consumed, merged into another, or what not. It just nobody wants to be because it's natural to fear death and the like.

 

[Elixir]

Again, I very much appreciate your response! I would have clicked "friendly" over "informative" if I had thought clearly ! (but definitely this clears things up for me a lot - informative! )

 

[FineLinen]

Thank you very much ! That sheds some light on fire as the scriptures speak, which seems to devour everything as a process of sorts rather than any one kind of thing here that can be said to be an embodiment of that. So, anything I may have felt particularly called to (here I am most partial to the human form as being one myself) it would be of fire anyway.

My only thing though, is that I'd seek to be of the form of the food in paradise, rather than to be an eater of it (I come across reports of food in Heaven in Near Death Experience reports, but nobody has ever been consumed in one of these of the tens of thousands I've searched through in a database or two - only one report has anyone ever said anything like they were going to be consumed (but at the last moment this was stopped and they lived)). So, pray tell, I hope not to see my desire itself dissolve into fire, hopefully it has been there to be fulfilled rather than as a weakness or thorn in my side to be dealt with.

I had thought that maybe everyone ends up consumed in some way, perhaps, as something that is so wonderful and hidden in the treasures of Heaven that that one report and the few that say there food in Heaven (one must wonder if everything there is alive, that food is not inanimate and experiences everything about being eaten like it's sentient) do not mean that just a few people get the experience of being consumed, merged into another, or what not. It just nobody wants to be because it's natural to fear death and the like.

Dear Elixir: There are so many aspects of our Father's Realm that simply move in areas that are outside of all we are or think. In fact, little do we grasp of the One who speaks of earthly things beyond us and declares in no uncertain terms, how can I speak of heavenly things?

My friend, fear not! He has come to give us life, and not only life, life more abundantly. All swallowing is by His mighty mouth into zao Life, and union and communion with Him in the many mansioned dimensions of His House.

This IS life aionios/ everlasting, that we might know You..."

 

[FineLinen]

"As long as there is any hate in us we are not ready for heaven, not as long as we're shutting the golden doors on anyone else...the heavenly banquet cannot begin until we are all there, and I can greet with love...everybody who has caused me pain, and call out a welcome to them all. The heavenly banquet cannot begin until all those whom I have hurt are ready to welcome me, in all my flawed and contradictory humanness... Belief in hell is lack of faith because it attributes more power to Satan than to God...but it is God who has the last word! God is not going to abandon creation, nor the people up for trial in criminal court, nor the Shiites, nor the communists, or the warmongers, nor the greedy and corrupt people in high places, nor the dope pushers, nor you, nor me. Bitter tears of repentance may be shed before we can join the celebration, but it won't be complete until we are all there." -Madeleine L'Engle-

Religious beliefs

L'Engle was an Episcopalian and believed in universal salvation, writing that "All will be redeemed in God's fullness of time, all, not just the small portion of the population who have been given the grace to know and accept Christ. All the strayed and stolen sheep. All the little lost ones."

As a result of her promotion of Christian universalism, many Christian bookstores refused to carry her books, which were also frequently banned from Christian schools and libraries. At the same time, some of her most secular critics attacked her work for being too religious.

Her views on divine punishment were similar to those of George MacDonald, who also had a large influence on her fictional work. She said "I cannot believe that God wants punishment to go on interminably any more than does a loving parent. The entire purpose of loving punishment is to teach, and it lasts only as long as is needed for the lesson. And the lesson is always love."

In 1982, L'Engle reflected on how suffering had taught her. She told how suffering a "lonely solitude" as a child taught her about the "world of the imagination" that enabled her to write for children. Later she suffered a "decade of failure" after her first books were published. It was a "bitter" experience, yet she wrote that she had "learned a lot of valuable lessons" that enabled her to persevere as a writer.

 

[Elixir]

"As long as there is any hate in us we are not ready for heaven, not as long as we're shutting the golden doors on anyone else...the heavenly banquet cannot begin until we are all there, and I can greet with love...everybody who has caused me pain, and call out a welcome to them all. The heavenly banquet cannot begin until all those whom I have hurt are ready to welcome me, in all my flawed and contradictory humanness... Belief in hell is lack of faith because it attributes more power to Satan than to God...but it is God who has the last word! God is not going to abandon creation, nor the people up for trial in criminal court, nor the Shiites, nor the communists, or the warmongers, nor the greedy and corrupt people in high places, nor the dope pushers, nor you, nor me. Bitter tears of repentance may be shed before we can join the celebration, but it won't be complete until we are all there." -Madeleine L'Engle-

I've had a long and difficult relationship with more mainstream Christianity because that people can end up completely screwed. Not for a while, not for an eternity or so, but just screwed. Maybe a merciless killer would be mercilessly punished, but does that make him screwed? My eyes water and my body trembles at the idea of any one thing in the fabric of creation being so in the harmonious whole.

And again,

As long as there is any hate in us we are not ready for heaven, not as long as we're shutting the golden doors on anyone else...the heavenly banquet cannot begin until we are all there, and I can greet with love...everybody who has caused me pain, and call out a welcome to them all.

This could not have come at a better time for me to read, I will seek to love my enemies now rather than keep hating them and wanting to confront them. Nice !

 

[FineLinen]

"What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn." -Madeleine L'Engle-

apokastastasis=

Universalism: a historical survey by Richard Bauckham

MORE: more than we can ask or even think.

 

[Elixir]

"What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn." -Madeleine L'Engle-

apokastastasis=

Universalism: a historical survey by Richard Bauckham

MORE: more than we can ask or even think.

Maybe Earth and humanity is unique in the cosmos, where of all things in the Universe that may exist anywhere in the countless galaxies that outnumber the number of stars in our own galaxy, our Savior and God, creator of all, came here to do His crowning work, and here we are, many of us perhaps (myself having been so too), thinking things so mundane, boring, and even hating our selves (I've tried suicide before) when being even the "least" / last or however one may believe oneself to be here as a human being is still a greater opportunity than everywhere else as anything else in the Universe.

Edit: Typo/clarity