The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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Saint Steven

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Remember when I said you might just want to start with "ETERNITY" which is the first chapter of Preston's series? But, it too is an in depth study just as you are finding concerning 'The Judgment'. Even FL's URL's end up being a bit of a "study to show yourself approved" read.

Below are some scholarly translations which use the Greek word aionios consistently. Instead of making the definition "eternal" when it's in a 'deal with sin' verse, as opposed to using it as 'something taking place during an age' whenever it's obviously talking about Christians. IOW their definition changes to fit their theology and not meet the rules of Greek grammar.


Youngs Literal translation
MAT 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Concordant Literal translation;
Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham's translation 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
The problems seem obvious to me.
1) The definitions don't match the Greek word.
2) The same definition has to work for both "punishment" and "life".
Your definition would make our eternal life only temporary. Then what?
 
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Hillsage

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Seems to work more as a second definition. IMHO
Would your definition work in this scripture?

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
I'm not following you. What seems to work as a second definition? John's or mine? Or are you saying both of our definitions would work better as 'second definitions' to the 'undeserved favor' def.?
I think John's and my definitions both work fine in Eph 2:8.
 
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Hillsage

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The problems seem obvious to me.
1) The definitions don't match the Greek word.
2) The same definition has to work for both "punishment" and "life".
Your definition would make our eternal life only temporary. Then what?
our definition does work for both. There is a different kind or degree of God life in every age. Did the OT saints have individual access to the holy spirit of Christ in them or the power of the Holy Spirit? Did they all have spiritual authority over the demons? Or the ability to pray for the sick, like an elder and I did after church yesterday for the niece of a gal who asked us to? Etc. Etc. I hope you get my drift.

When the OT Jew asked Jesus what he had to do to have eternal (wrong) life OR age-during life under the law, what did Jesus tell him? Keep the commandments, which he said he did. Then Jesus threw out something that isn't written anywhere, nor was it ever taught, that I know of.

MAR 10:21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Now that last underlined part actually fits the bible definition of age during life for both the OT and NT age.

RSV JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

YLT JOH 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send - Jesus Christ;

IOW true eternal life is more about 'a quality of life' in time, than it is a never ending 'quantity of time'.

IOW, we all, from Adam to the last person on earth WILL have access to a God life which we never had, in the ages past up until today in this age in which we live. Like I said you haven't begun to study this doctrine, and there is an answer for every one of your questions Steve. Answered by scholars giving more astute answers than I just gave. But hopefully what I've shared does give you an answer you can live with until you've studied more.
 
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FineLinen

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Saint Steven

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I'm not following you. What seems to work as a second definition? John's or mine? Or are you saying both of our definitions would work better as 'second definitions' to the 'undeserved favor' def.?
I think John's and my definitions both work fine in Eph 2:8.
I agree with you that your definition and John's are nearly the same. So both would work as a second definition. Let's try inserting yours into the Ephesians text.

For it is by the power of God to accomplish God's will you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

There also seems to be a built-in assertion in your definition.
the power of God [in you] to accomplish God's will
Which makes it even less fitting. It conflicts with "not from yourselves".

For it is by the power of God [in you] to accomplish God's will you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Four aspects in this verse have to be in agreement with the definition of "grace" used.
1) saving
2) through faith
3) not from yourselves
4) the gift of God

It seems that your definition refers to the grace of God in us that enables us to do the will of God. Rather than the grace of God that is the gift of salvation, through faith, that we could not do for ourselves. Or simply put, unmerited favor.

But perhaps you see this differently than I do.
 
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our definition does work for both. There is a different kind or degree of God life in every age. Did the OT saints have individual access to the holy spirit of Christ in them or the power of the Holy Spirit? Did they all have spiritual authority over the demons? Or the ability to pray for the sick, like an elder and I did after church yesterday for the niece of a gal who asked us to? Etc. Etc. I hope you get my drift.

When the OT Jew asked Jesus what he had to do to have eternal (wrong) life OR age-during life under the law, what did Jesus tell him? Keep the commandments, which he said he did. Then Jesus threw out something that isn't written anywhere, nor was it ever taught, that I know of.

MAR 10:21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Now that last underlined part actually fits the bible definition of age during life for both the OT and NT age.

RSV JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

YLT JOH 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send - Jesus Christ;

IOW true eternal life is more about 'a quality of life' in time, than it is a never ending 'quantity of time'.

IOW, we all, from Adam to the last person on earth WILL have access to a God life which we never had, in the ages past up until today in this age in which we live. Like I said you haven't begun to study this doctrine, and there is an answer for every one of your questions Steve. Answered by scholars giving more astute answers than I just gave. But hopefully what I've shared does give you an answer you can live with until you've studied more.
So, not only are you claiming that hell is not eternal, but also that heaven is not eternal. And I suppose even God is not eternal in your definition. ??? (I am) ???

And we have still not addressed why the Greek definition of eternal (aiōnios) in Matt.25:46 doesn't match yours. See below. (aiōnios is used for both)

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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FineLinen

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The Father Who Lost Two Sons

This is about what’s normally called The Parable of the Prodigal Son. That's only one of the two sons in the parable, the younger boy. The older boy is the one—the other son—who is lost. And the point about changing the name of the parable is that the parables are almost always misnamed.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is not about the lost sheep.

All the sheep ever did was get lost. The parable is about the passion of the shepherd who lost the sheep to find the sheep. His passion to find is what drives the parable; and consequently it isn't the Prodigal's lostness, wasting all his money on wine, women and song in the far country; and it isn't the elder brother's grousing and complaining and score keeping that stands against him. What counts in the parable is the father's unceasing desire to find the sons he lost—both of them—and to raise both of them up from the dead.

The story, of course, you know. The story begins with the father having two sons and the youngest son comes to the father and says, "Father, divide the inheritance between me and my brother." What he’s in effect saying is,

"Dear Dad, drop dead now, legally.

Put your will into effect and just retire out of the whole business of being anything to anybody and let us have what is coming to us." So the youngest son gets the money and the older brother gets the farm. And off the younger brother goes. What he does, of course, is he spends it all—blows it all—on wild living. When he finally is in want and working, slopping hogs for a farmer and wishing that he could eat what he’s feeding the pigs, he can't stand it. When he finally comes to himself he says, "You know, I've got to do something. How many hired servants of my father's are there who have bread enough to spare and I'm perishing here with hunger? I know what I'm going to do."

Almost every preacher makes this the boy's repentance. It's not his repentance.

This is just one more dumb plan for his life.

He says, "I will go to my father and I will say, ‘Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you.'" That's true. He got that one right. "And I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." Score two. He gets that one right. But the next thing he says is dead wrong. He says, "Make me one of your hired servants." He knows—he thinks he knows—he can't go back as a dead son, and therefore he says, "I will now go back as somebody who can earn my father's favor again. I will be a good worker or whatever." This is not a real repentance, it's just a plan for a life. What it is, is enough to get him started going home, and consequently when he goes home, what happens next is an absolutely fascinating kind of thing.

What happens next?

What happens next is that the father (you must remember this) is now sitting on the front porch of the farm house. The farm house doesn't belong to him anymore. The front porch doesn't belong to him. He’s sitting in the rocker that belongs to his oldest son who is now, you know, the owner of the farm. He’s sitting there and he sees the Prodigal, the younger boy, coming down the road from far away. He sees him coming. What does he do? He rushes off the porch, runs a half mile down the road, throws his arms around the boy's neck and kisses him.

Now, this is all that Jesus does with this scene. The fascinating thing in this parable is that in the whole parable the father never says one single word to the Prodigal Son. Jesus makes the embrace, the kiss, do the whole story of saying, "I have found my son." The fascinating thing also is that when the father embraces the boy who has come home from wasting his life, the boy never gets his confession out of his mouth until after the kiss, until after the embrace. What this says to you and me who have to live with the business of trying to confess our sins is that confession is not a pre-condition of forgiveness. It’s something that you do after you know you have been forgiven. Confession is not something you do in order to get forgiveness. It’s something you do in order to celebrate the forgiveness you got for nothing. Nobody can earn forgiveness. The Prodigal knows he's a dead son. He can't come home as a son, and yet in his father's arms he rises from the dead and then he is able to come to his father's side.

What happens next is that the father, saying not a word to the Prodigal, turns to the servants and says, "Bring the best robe, bring a ring for his finger and shoes for his feet, kill the fatted calf and let us eat and be merry for this, my son, was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found." Now this is the point in the parable at which everything is going well. The dead son, the no-good Prodigal Son, is home. He has been raised from the dead by his father's embrace. He has done nothing to earn it, but now all that matters is that the father has called for the party to celebrate the finding of the lost and the resurrection of the dead.

It's the party. Every one of Jesus' parables of grace—not every one, but most of them—end with a party.

When the Shepherd finds the lost sheep, he doesn't go back to the 99, he goes home and has a party with his friends in order to celebrate the finding of the lost. The father's will to have a party is what the parable is all about. That's why you must always do, not the human race characters in the parable like the Prodigal and the elder brother, why you must always do the God character first, because it’s the God character who drives the parable.

All right, now, what we've got now is everybody dead in the parable.

The father died at the beginning, the Prodigal died in the far country: he came home dead and the father raises him. Everything is fine. And now what we've got is Jesus' genius as a storyteller. The party is in full swing, so Jesus brings back in the only person in the story left who still has a life of his own: Mr. Responsibility, Mr. Whining, Mr. Elder Brother. He comes up and hears the music and the dancing and he probably sees the waiters scurrying around with roast veal platters and everything else. And he asks one of the servants, "What is this all about? I didn't commission a party." The servant says, "No, no, your brother has come home and your father has killed the fatted calf because he received him safe and sound." And the older brother is angry and he will not go in. He will not go into the house. He is right out there in the midst of the party. He is part of the party but he will not join the party. And the next thing that happens in this: when he comes in with all this bookkeeping he says, "Look," to his father, "all these years I served you and I never broke one of your commandments and you never even gave me a goat that I could make merry with my friends. But when this your son (notice he doesn't say, this my brother) cuts off his relationship, this your son has wasted your substance with riotous living, has wasted your substance with harlots, when this son comes home you kill the fatted calf!"

I think that one of the things you could do with this is make up a speech for the father.

The father goes out in the courtyard to plead with the older son. He goes out there in order to find him as he is and to raise him from the dead. He never gives up on any of them. He says to him, "Look, Arthur (let’s call the older brother Arthur), what do you mean I never gave you a goat for a party? If you wanted to have a great veal dinner for all your friends every week in the year, you had the money and the resources. You owned this place, Arthur. You have the money and the resources to have built 52 stalls and kept the oxen fattening as you wanted them to come along, but you didn't. Why didn't you do that, Arthur? Because you're a bean counter, because you're always keeping track of everybody else. That's your problem, Arthur, and I have one recipe for you." (The father is pleading with this fellow to come out of the death of bookkeeping.) He says, "I have one recipe for you, Arthur. That is, go in, kiss your brother, and have a drink. Just shut up about all this stuff because, Arthur, you came in here already in hell, and I came out here in this courtyard to visit you in the hell in which you were."

This is the wonderful thing about this parable, because it isn't that there was a Prodigal Son who was a bad boy and who, therefore, came home and turned out to be a good boy and had a happy ending. Then the elder brother—you would think Jesus, if he was an ordinary storyteller, would have said, "Let's give the elder brother a rotten ending." He doesn't. He gives the older brother no ending. The parable ends with a freeze frame. It ends like that with just the father, and the sound goes dead—the servants may be moving around with the wine and veal—but the sound goes dead and Jesus shows you only the freeze frame of the father and the elder brother. That's the way the parable has ended for 2,000 years.

My theory about this parable is that if, for 2,000 years, he has never let it end, then you can extend that indefinitely, that this is a signal, an image of the presence of Christ to the damned. When the father goes out into the courtyard, he is an image of Christ descending into hell; and, therefore, the great message in this is the same as Psalm 139, "If I go down to hell, You are there also." God is there with us. There is no point at which the Shepherd who followed the lost sheep will ever stop following all of the damned. He will always seek the lost. He will always raise the dead. Even if the elder brother refused forever to go in and kiss his other brother, the Father would still be there pleading with him. Christ never gives up on anybody. Christ is not the enemy of the damned. He is the finder of the damned. If they don't want to be found, well there is no imagery of hell too strong like fire and brimstone and all that for that kind of stupidity. But nonetheless, the point is that you can never get away from the love that will not let you go and the elder brother standing there in the courtyard in his own hell is never going to get away from the Jesus who seeks him and wills to raise him from the dead.
 
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Hillsage

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I agree with you that your definition and John's are nearly the same. So both would work as a second definition. Let's try inserting yours into the Ephesians text.

For it is by the power of God to accomplish God's will you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

There also seems to be a built-in assertion in your definition.
the power of God [in you] to accomplish God's will
Which makes it even less fitting. It conflicts with "not from yourselves".

For it is by the power of God [in you] to accomplish God's will you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Four aspects in this verse have to be in agreement with the definition of "grace" used.
1) saving
2) through faith
3) not from yourselves
4) the gift of God

It seems that your definition refers to the grace of God in us that enables us to do the will of God. Rather than the grace of God that is the gift of salvation, through faith, that we could not do for ourselves. Or simply put, unmerited favor.

But perhaps you see this differently than I do.
I do see it differently, because you see the "gift" being "grace". I do not, I see the gift as "faith". And faith comes from hearing a spoken word from God. And if God isn't speaking a salvation word then you aren't hearing anything from Him.

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/rhema of God.

If we 'hear' a word "not of ourselves" then believe and confess, it is faith from us that moves God to impart saving grace. And that grace/power in you is what effects the rebirth of your spirit.



EDIT P.S. EDIT

How does your definition of "grace" fit this verse?

JOH 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So, Jesus was "full of" 'undeserved favor' according to Orthodoy? Doesn't work for me Steve.
 
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Hillsage

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So, not only are you claiming that hell is not eternal, but also that heaven is not eternal. And I suppose even God is not eternal in your definition. ??? (I am) ???
I'm claiming no such thing. But you are proving that you have no 'defining difference' between the two. You are saying that 'life' and 'heaven' are the same thing. They are not. The verse you quoted only says "punishment/chastening/correction" for a time and "life" in that very same 'time period'. At the end of that 'age', if you had God's life you will continue into the next age with God's "life" for that age....even as I told you last post. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE NOW? Then why is your body going to die, and your new one won't in the next age? It's because you don't have a glorified GOD'S LIFE body from God, and yet you claim ETERNAL LIFE. That's a dichotomy Steve. The the only thing promised in the Garden because of sin....was DEATH. Nothing in there about ETERNAL HELL at all. Not until the 5th book of Deuteronomy is the word “HELL” even first mentioned in the bible. And then it's only in Deut one time, and only in the KJV . And then it’s in a verse talking about burning up the earth and mountains. :doh:

Also, I quoted 'three bibles' that all say judgments are not eternal, and there are 'more'. So refute them and don't make no ETERNAL HELL being 'MY CLAIM'. But I challenge you to give me one verse that even says "ETERNAL HELL". I'm simply telling you my study has proven to me that MY favored TRANSLATIONS are consistent to the grammatical laws and YOUR ETERNAL HELL translations are not. I say that because I've eaten that elephant with lots of time spent seeking the truth one bite at a time.

And we have still not addressed why the Greek definition of eternal (aiōnios) in Matt.25:46 doesn't match yours. See below. (aiōnios is used for both)

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Have you finished reading 'The judgment'? If not then you need to. Because if you haven't finished swallowing that elephant I don't want to be dealing with two more different things. One of which is another obvious elephant (eternity). And the grace thing isn't even an elephant but you're trying to add it now. I should have never brought it up, when I didn't 'have to'. Even though you never even tried to refute the 2 scriptures that prove you have to DO something to receive GRACE. Hence not meeting the 'unmerited favor' orthodox definition IMO anyway.

But let's just stick with the Judgment topic for now.
 
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Search= eternal hell

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query and try again.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
nor thorns infest the ground;
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found,
far as the curse is found,
far as, far as the curse is found. -Isaac Watts-

Curse= katanathema=

By metonymy: accursed thing put to the thing announced.

"The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age." -The Message-
 
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Saint Steven

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EDIT P.S. EDIT

How does your definition of "grace" fit this verse?

JOH 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So, Jesus was "full of" 'undeserved favor' according to Orthodoy? Doesn't work for me Steve.
I said there is more than one definition of grace.
You are the one with the single definition problem, not me. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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YOU THINK YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE NOW?
Yes.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
 
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Saint Steven

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Have you finished reading 'The judgment'? If not then you need to.
I'm still working on it.
When I ran into this age-during thing again I had to do some quick research.
If hell (punishment) isn't eternal, then neither is life.
I'm having a hard time swallowing that. And what it also says about God himself. (not eternal either) ???
 
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I'm claiming no such thing. But you are proving that you have no 'defining difference' between the two. You are saying that 'life' and 'heaven' are the same thing. They are not. The verse you quoted only says "punishment/chastening/correction" for a time and "life" in that very same 'time period'. At the end of that 'age', if you had God's life you will continue into the next age with God's "life" for that age....even as I told you last post.
No, both are in reference to the afterlife. A fork in the road, two separate destinies.

Also notice the context. (vs 41) Ad "fire" to the list. Eternal punishment/life/fire
Age-during for the devil and his angels as well? I suppose they are part of the full restoration, since they too are part of the whole creation. ???

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
 
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Below are some scholarly translations which use the Greek word aionios consistently. Instead of making the definition "eternal" when it's in a 'deal with sin' verse, as opposed to using it as 'something taking place during an age' whenever it's obviously talking about Christians. IOW their definition changes to fit their theology and not meet the rules of Greek grammar.

Youngs Literal translation
MAT 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Concordant Literal translation;
Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham's translation 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
Who are the real "lying" scribes here?
The ones who use definitions that meet the standard rules of Greek grammar (the language used), or the ones who change definitions to fit their theology? (text tampering)
 
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There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._________________________________________?

2._________________________________________?

3._________________________________________?

4._________________________________________?

5._________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!

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FineLinen

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Originally Posted by Mike555
Don't be a hypocrite. You cherry pick the verses which you don't even understand but think teach Universalism, and disregard everything in the Bible which refutes it.

As for Matthew 25:46, the duration of eternal punishment for the unbeliever is the same duration as the eternal life of the believer - unending.

********

Dear Mike: OK then, tell us what are the qualification(s) for aionios kolasis for the goats & aionios zoe for the sheep?

According to the context of St. Matthew 25
 
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Hillsage

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Who are the real "lying" scribes here?
The ones who use definitions that meet the standard rules of Greek grammar (the language used), or the ones who change definitions to fit their theology? (text tampering)


I'd say the lying scribes are the ones who have to sign contracts from modern day Christian publishing companies who won't hire them unless they agree to the doctrines of orthodoxy. And of course they do that because they honestly believe they are protecting the dumb sheep who can't study for themselves to arrive at the same conclusion that they've been brainwashed into believing. IOW good heart, but bad carnal minded thinking.

But you have the material to study, if you want. I'm done other than saying yes the devil the demons and all those whom God created for a purpose in his creation are part of His plan too. That's one of the benefits of being an omniscient God. Otherwise you just agree with orthodoxy that God's plan was so stupid He's lost most all of his beloved creation to Satan.

EPH 1:10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,

A non UR/UNI pastor who had been presented with this good news gospel from a parishioner was walking into his study when the Holy Spirit nailed him with the above scripture saying; "WHAT in the heavens (Plural in the Greek speaking of the spiritual realm) needs to be 'united'....or reconciled?" He became a believer in the gospel orthodoxy never taught him. Including Satan in the spiritual heavenly realm. Not all UR/UNI's agree with this point though.


 
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