The real Total Annihilation Vs Starcraft!

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I know-that irks me to no end. I mean, they aready have Warcraft that kind of goes in that vein. For ages they told us they had no plans for a game. Every night they said that on the forums and announcements, and then they come out with a ghost game that isn't RTS. RTS is what makes Starcraft, Starcraft! Why did they do that. Do you think it will fly?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Right... This is just a compromise method of balancing the three races. They couldn't get them balanced correctly so they made mistakes here and there and labelled them "strengths" and "weaknesses". TA excels in that the races are perfectly balanced yet distinctively different. The units fill the same roles but look, sound and feel different. For example, Core's Level 2 assault KBot, the Pyro, has a flamethrower weapon and is excellent at clearing trees and wreckage along with being a decent assault KBot. The Arm Zeus, the equivalent, carries a lightning gun. It's almost useless against trees but packs a heavy punch, and looks cool as well.

Please point out these "Imbalances" because so far they're all theoretical. Here are some practical TA imbalances:

Flash/Peewees: They're just better then AKs/Intimidators. Sorry, it's true, and you know it.
Thud: What a piece of junk
Spider bots: I build one once a century, maybe?
Tier 1 units: better then tier 2 units
Mobile flak unit: My favorite AA bulldog shredder (hello, what were you thinking cavedog?)
Tier 1 air (excepting the core bombers): Airborne tissue paper
ARM bombers: Did somewhere in the design process Cavedog decide ARM shouldn't get bombers, then install them anyway?
Stealth plane/bomber turn around: Yes, I do like my units to fly half a mile before making a second pass. Half mile flight can be aborted with a click (click fest anyone?)
Shadow rebombing targeting: Click fest city
The depth charge bug (3rd weapon bug): I. Hate. The. FACT. That. Destroyers. Never. Use. Depth. Charges.
D-gun doesn't fire bug: Pain in the frikken neck
Off buildings don't gain armor: oops.


Now try to do this for starcraft. Oh, you can't.

 

[Noddingdog]

Ooohh goody goody, let's pick THIS one apart!

Please point out these "Imbalances" because so far they're all theoretical. Here are some practical TA imbalances:

I'll come back to you.

Flash/Peewees: They're just better then AKs/Intimidators. Sorry, it's true, and you know it.

Flashes/Peewees are better than AKs but not Intimidators. Intimidators are Long Range Plasma Cannons. Perhaps you mean Instigators? Anyway, yes they are better for a specific reason: ARM raids better, CORE is slower and heavier. Use your Levelers/Immolators correctly and you'll never fear the Flash or Peewee again.

Thud: What a piece of junk

Not so. Firstly, it's better than the Hammer, secondly, if you knew how to use it you would find it makes effective Level 1 artillery.

Spider bots: I build one once a century, maybe?

Build them more often then. Very handy for paralysing and scouting where other units cannot (can climb almost vertical cliffs).

Tier 1 units: better then tier 2 units

Examples?

Mobile flak unit: My favorite AA bulldog shredder (hello, what were you thinking cavedog?)

Pardon? Mobile Flakkers attack only air units. Unless your install is truly mucked up or something, as it can be in Starcraft. Are you using third party expansions?

Tier 1 air (excepting the core bombers): Airborne tissue paper

In the late stages of the game, yes. In early stages, no.

ARM bombers: Did somewhere in the design process Cavedog decide ARM shouldn't get bombers, then install them anyway?

Nope, I think it was more of "Hey, let's have Bombers!" "OK, Joe, put one in there and one there." "OK!" They work fine, what's the problem with them?

Stealth plane/bomber turn around: Yes, I do like my units to fly half a mile before making a second pass. Half mile flight can be aborted with a click (click fest anyone?)

Firstly, the flight isn't half a mile, it's reasonable considering real-life situations. Secondly, proper dogfighting, not clickfesting, can control the planes even more accurately.

Shadow rebombing targeting: Click fest city

Negative. It isn't click fest city... what pack are you using again, and are you by any chance a newbie?

The depth charge bug (3rd weapon bug): I. Hate. The. FACT. That. Destroyers. Never. Use. Depth. Charges.

You are playing TA, right? Of course they use depth charges. Efficiently as well I might add.

D-gun doesn't fire bug: Pain in the frikken neck

Eh? Which game is this again? Press the D key or the D-Gun button, then click, dude. It fires a treat.

Off buildings don't gain armor: oops.

Not meant to. Since when did a closed down nuclear plant increase it's armor? Only the Ambusher and Toaster and other such specialised buildings are meant to do this.

Now try to do this for starcraft. Oh, you can't.

But I can point out some actual imbalances rather than fake ones. Oh, name TA's imbalances again?

 

[ThePhoenix]

OFlashes/Peewees are better than AKs but not Intimidators. Intimidators are Long Range Plasma Cannons. Perhaps you mean Instigators? Anyway, yes they are better for a specific reason: ARM raids better, CORE is slower and heavier. Use your Levelers/Immolators correctly and you'll never fear the Flash or Peewee again.

This is ridiculous. Starcraft has differences, but the Instigator/AK problems are more then just imbalance issues - there's NO reason to use those units.

Not so. Firstly, it's better than the Hammer, secondly, if you knew how to use it you would find it makes effective Level 1 artillery.

Oh right, it's the hammer that takes 5 seconds to open the tubes. Oops.

Build them more often then. Very handy for paralysing and scouting where other units cannot (can climb almost vertical cliffs).

Since they cost a large amount I'd rather be killing the flashes then paralyzing them.

Examples?

Flash> Bulldog (not 1 on 1, but $ for $ flash is better).

Pardon? Mobile Flakkers attack only air units. Unless your install is truly mucked up or something, as it can be in Starcraft. Are you using third party expansions?

LOL! Do a clean 3.1 install, take those flak vehicals, and order them to guard a unit. First unit to attacks that unit gets flakked. Shreds bulldogs, goliaths, anything in short order.

In the late stages of the game, yes. In early stages, no.

Practical examples of when anything except shadows have really done anything early game? They're Samson fodder.

Nope, I think it was more of "Hey, let's have Bombers!" "OK, Joe, put one in there and one there." "OK!" They work fine, what's the problem with them?

THEY SUCK! I can't believe you haven't noticed that the arm level 2 bomber is only a little bit better then the shadow, especially with the shadow rebombing bug.

Firstly, the flight isn't half a mile, it's reasonable considering real-life situations. Secondly, proper dogfighting, not clickfesting, can control the planes even more accurately.

No, clickfesting.

Negative. It isn't click fest city... what pack are you using again, and are you by any chance a newbie?

Dude, shadows have about a 1 second reload time. You can just click a unit to attack, click one after that, click one after that, and they'll drop a nearly continuous stream of bombs. Click festing, sure, but it works.

You are playing TA, right? Of course they use depth charges. Efficiently as well I might add.

When you target them. 3rd weapon fire bug sucks (and don't tell me it doesn't exist, when was the last time the Kogroth used arm guns without being prompted?)

Eh? Which game is this again? Press the D key or the D-Gun button, then click, dude. It fires a treat.

Except when he tracks without fireing (noted bug)

Not meant to. Since when did a closed down nuclear plant increase it's armor? Only the Ambusher and Toaster and other such specialised buildings are meant to do this.

Nope, THEY DON'T. Except for the toaster/ambusher. Solar plants get no armor boost, metal makers get no armor boost, etc. BUG.

But I can point out some actual imbalances rather than fake ones. Oh, name TA's imbalances again?

Just did. And try to point out some SC imbalances the next time you want to point out SC imbalances.

 

[Noddingdog]

This is ridiculous. Starcraft has differences, but the Instigator/AK problems are more then just imbalance issues - there's NO reason to use those units.

Sure there is. Build a whole stack of them, assault a base, back em up with Levelers, use em as bait for killing off Flashes. Simple really. Or use them as distraction groups whilst you bring Goliaths in behind.

Oh right, it's the hammer that takes 5 seconds to open the tubes. Oops.

Yes (well not 5 seconds, probably about 2-3). But this is balanced because the Rocko is more powerful than the Storm.

Since they cost a large amount I'd rather be killing the flashes then paralyzing them.

But they are very handy for paralysing Sumos, Cans, Goliaths, Punishers, OTA Krogoths, Gaat Guns, Doomsday Machines, Timmies... (the list goes on)

Flash> Bulldog (not 1 on 1, but $ for $ flash is better).

Proof? Damage/second ratios? Health? Costs?

LOL! Do a clean 3.1 install, take those flak vehicals, and order them to guard a unit. First unit to attacks that unit gets flakked. Shreds bulldogs, goliaths, anything in short order.

LOL! That's a good one. Seriously, that made me laugh! Flakkers only attack air units, full stop, finito. Your install must be broken or something. And even if they did hit ground-based units, they wouldn't do much damage (the ARMYORK weapon is not very powerful against ground)

Practical examples of when anything except shadows have really done anything early game? They're Samson fodder.

Go to Gods of War map as Arm or Core. Build Avengers/Freedom Fighters/any other Lv1 craft. Smash opponents base up. Use strategy.
Go to any other map as Arm or Core. Build Avengers/Freedom Fighters/any other Lv1 craft. Smash opponents base up. Use strategy.

THEY SUCK! I can't believe you haven't noticed that the arm level 2 bomber is only a little bit better then the shadow, especially with the shadow rebombing bug.

Not at all. The rebombing feature also applies to all bombers, not just the Shadow. The Level 2 bombers are very effective; in teams of about 3-5 they can take out pretty much any structure.

No, clickfesting.

No, proper dogfighting.

Dude, shadows have about a 1 second reload time. You can just click a unit to attack, click one after that, click one after that, and they'll drop a nearly continuous stream of bombs. Click festing, sure, but it works.

All bombers have zero-reload time And if you can't beat opponents any other way than carpet bombing... well, rethink your strategy.

When you target them. 3rd weapon fire bug sucks (and don't tell me it doesn't exist, when was the last time the Kogroth used arm guns without being prompted?)

Units use their primary/secondary weapons when told to force fire. Kroggie and suchlike with tertiary weapons use them in battle anyway, what's the problem?

Except when he tracks without fireing (noted bug)

When you click D-Gun and click a unit, he has to target first. Click D-Gun in front of unit, and no tracking necessary. No bug.

Nope, THEY DON'T. Except for the toaster/ambusher. Solar plants get no armor boost, metal makers get no armor boost, etc. BUG.

Solar plants DO get an armour boost, metal makers are not supposed to. All other structures are not designed to unless noted. NO BUG.

Just did. And try to point out some SC imbalances the next time you want to point out SC imbalances.

As I said, I'll come back to you.

 

[Bowser]

And no, noddingdog, you cannot compare a firebat vs a mutalisk, okay? There are no inbalances in Starcraft.

 

[Noddingdog]

Disagreed. More soon.

 

[dragannia]

This is ridiculous. Starcraft has differences, but the Instigator/AK problems are more then just imbalance issues - there's NO reason to use those units.

Why on earth would you not use them? Just because the flash is better? I mean, the instigator could be used as squads to destroy enemy unguarded metal extractors and stuff. Just because the Arm raid better doesn't mean the Core can't raid at all.

Oh right, it's the hammer that takes 5 seconds to open the tubes. Oops.

Sure it takes longer than Thud, but it can shoot over Dragon Teeth, which is a very useful ability.

Since they cost a large amount I'd rather be killing the flashes then paralyzing them.

Spiders are dead useful. Climb walls, paralyze enemy units you want to capture, and the list continues with Noddingdog's post.

LOL! Do a clean 3.1 install, take those flak vehicals, and order them to guard a unit. First unit to attacks that unit gets flakked. Shreds bulldogs, goliaths, anything in short order.

Have you been smoking crack? Flak vehicles CANNOT attack ground. Even force fire doesn't let them attack ground. And it wouldn't do much damage because its damage is bad against everything except planes (they have light armour).

Dude, shadows have about a 1 second reload time. You can just click a unit to attack, click one after that, click one after that, and they'll drop a nearly continuous stream of bombs. Click festing, sure, but it works.

That is a BUG. And people don't use it. I have never seen people use that bug to their advantage or any bugs to their advantage in multiplayer games, because people are HONEST in TA.

Except when he tracks without fireing (noted bug)

This is NOT a bug. the commander has to get a clear lock on a target. I mean, sometimes it does fire, but it often misses moving targets. You have to have some skill and anticipate where the enemy is going to move so you can target the ground in front it and fire. Boom.

When you target them. 3rd weapon fire bug sucks (and don't tell me it doesn't exist, when was the last time the Kogroth used arm guns without being prompted?)

It always has fired automatically for me. Maybe your version is screwed.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Flak guard bug is acknowledged, here's one site that quotes it but there are others, just look around. No, try it yourself and watch the hilarity ensue. Shred HLTs, Punishers, whatever you want with your flak death machines.
http://www.clf.2sxy.com/

Amazing that I know more about the game that your defending then you do, that one was actually done by me by accident (guarding against brawlers I took out an HLT instead, man was I surprised).

 

[Noddingdog]

Apologies for the lack of better etiquette.. but this is rubbish. Sent in 2 flakkers, guarding one Bulldog each. Bulldogs get munched, flakkers sit there happy as anything doing absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. No magic unit-shredding, no magic guard-shredding. No bug there, sorry.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Apologies for the lack of better etiquette.. but this is rubbish. Sent in 2 flakkers, guarding one Bulldog each. Bulldogs get munched, flakkers sit there happy as anything doing absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. No magic unit-shredding, no magic guard-shredding. No bug there, sorry.

Hmm, works for me, the site I just linked to had it as part of their "strategies" section (my friends and I have an informal agreement not to use bugs, but still that one is annoying).

 

[Noddingdog]

Maybe a reinstall would sort out the bug. Are you using third party units?

 

[dragannia]

To tell you the truth, I have never noticed that bug at all. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but that site is the only site that I have seen that mentions the bug. I'll check tonight if it's true.

And oh yeah, the guy who wrote the site is a complete and utter MORON. He contradicts himself in so many ways. In the Core bit he says Decoy Commanders are useless and in the Arm bit he says it is useful! And what he said was wrong; you can see that it's a decoy in SKIRMISH games but in multiplayer it is exactly the same as a normal commander in appearance. And its explosion has a large radius but low damage. And he got both side pictures of only the Core units, so the Arm units have Core pictures on them! And he also left out hovercrafts and seaplanes and many other units even though it is obvious that he has CC! This guy obviously is a complete and utter N00B.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Wow, you just lost all respect I ever had for you dragania. His guide isn't complete, so he's a newb? *sigh* I have beaten legions of SC players like you, and it just goes to show that you are everywhere. Where is this amazing guide you made? Oh yeah, you prefer to criticize.

 

[dragannia]

Fine forget the part of not including the seaplanes and hover and stuff. But...

Decoy Commander (ARM)
Useful in many ways (thanks to tcbw here). It's amphibious and it can reclaim. When it self destructs it explodes nicely, so a pack of these can do some nice damage to shore defences.
Decoy Commander (CORE)
This could be a great unit if Cavedog weren't screwing it up (like the all things they did before they fell apart). The problem with this one, is that the enemy can see it's a decoy. Still, load it on a transport and send to the enemy's base. Good but not quite as good as a Roach or Hedgehog. My personal suggestion - only if you play against blind... or you are afraid of roaches.

See anything weird?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Fine forget the part of not including the seaplanes and hover and stuff. But...

Decoy Commander (ARM)
Useful in many ways (thanks to tcbw here). It's amphibious and it can reclaim. When it self destructs it explodes nicely, so a pack of these can do some nice damage to shore defences.
Decoy Commander (CORE)
This could be a great unit if Cavedog weren't screwing it up (like the all things they did before they fell apart). The problem with this one, is that the enemy can see it's a decoy. Still, load it on a transport and send to the enemy's base. Good but not quite as good as a Roach or Hedgehog. My personal suggestion - only if you play against blind... or you are afraid of roaches.

See anything weird?

Yes, it looks like 2 different people were writing the page. Or maybe more then 2.

 

[dragannia]

No, at the bottom it said it was written by one person.


Arm:
Text by CLF_BlackRaven a.k.a. SteelTormentor © 2000. Updates by CLF_Repo © 2002.

Core:
Text by CLF_BlackRaven a.k.a. SteelTormentor © 2000. Updates by CLF_Repo © 2001.


And you win, the bug is there. I've never noticed it before but it's there. And it is quite strong. Although, I haven't noticed it until now, which means that it's not a very serious bug. Like I said, people in TA are HONEST.

 

[Uzi_4_U]

I love this topic already! Hmm... lets see why TA is better than SC.
1. more units! Like a lot more. You can also install the expansions and get more units and there are literally thousands of third party units out there.
2. Real Earth v1. The best TA map ever! Looks like the world! Take up more resources than SC does to run .
3. 1024x768 Resolution. Need I say more?
4. Third Party total conversions:
SW:TA
TA:FF
AA:TA
TA:WD
RA:TA
5. You can get third party AI's for TA that will wipe the floor with you
6. Infinite resources at a finite rate.
7. Construction units can assist in building units.

 

[dragannia]

And SC is not so bug free.

Starcraft Bugs collected from all over the net...

The Lurker/Mutalisk Bug
This bug is far worse than any of the Starcraft/Brood War bug
previously discovered. This bug will literally allow a zerg player
to have several groups of special mutalisks in a few minutes.
Without even building a spire or wasting any resources. This bug is
also **** hard to do. It works the best in games that are laggy with
extra-high latency, but still can be done in fast low-latency games,
if your timing is right. Another cool thing about this bug is that
Protoss can mind control a hydralisk that have the evolve to lurker
ability, and change any protoss units to special mutalisks and
lurkers. Here's how to pull off this bug:


Create a Spawning Pool, a Hydralisk Den and upgrade your Hatchery to
a Lair. Research Lurker Aspect at the Hydralisk Den after the Lair
is complete. Hotkey a group of at least 2 units of any kind, such as
Zerglings and Overloads, and combine them as hotkey 1 Get some
Hydralisks and group them to hotkey 2 Select the Hydralisk group
(key 2) and press hotkey L and 1 almost simultaneously. Actually you
have to press L first and then press 1 right after. You have to
press it fast so it looks simultaneous. If it fails, cancel the
morphing Hydralisks and repeat the previous step again. If you had
done it correctly, your group of hydralisks will remain as
hydarlisks and the group of units grouped to 1 will starting special
Lurker mutation. Instead of eggs, you will see cocoons forming. If
you let the mutation finish, you will get special Lurkers, and if
you cancel the mutation, you will get special mutalisks. There is no
way you can get your original units back once the morphing starts.
The special units produced will inherit any special upgrades that
were present in the previous units it mutated from. This inheritance
will continue on to Guardians and Devourers evolved from the special
mutalisks. Some of the inheritance characteristics are:

any speed upgrades
any attack speed upgrades
any special characteristics: permanent clocking and field clocking
(works like an Arbiter) no magic spells can be inherited
no detection ability can be inherited
no sight upgrades can be inherited
no weapon or armor upgrades can be inherited
For example, if a fully upgraded Zergling (with speed and attack
speed upgrade) is morphed into a special Mutalisk or a special
Lurker, the Mutalisk and Lurker will retain the Zergling's amazing
moving and attacking speed. Imagine, a Devourer or a Guardian moves
twice as fast as a regular Mutalisk and attacks almost twice per
second.

The Terran Command Center Bug
This bug lets you move your command center really close to the
minerals and gas gayser. What you need to do is to play as terran.
When the game starts, lift off your command center. Now comes the
tricky part. Try to land your command center, and while the landing
animation is still displaying, press SHIFT+S and right click
anywhere on the map, hopefully next to the mineral patches.
Remember, the whole process has to be done while the Command center
is in its landing sequence. If this is done correctly, the command
center will land and try to move to where you clicked in a straight
line. However, if there is any object in the way, the command center
will stop moving at once upon making contact with that object.


The Fog of War Bug
Apparently, you can see various things under the Fog of War once you
have explored that area. These includes the smoke of Halo Rockets
fired by Valkaries and the spines of the Lurker attack. If you do
not understand what I meant, here's an example: In a game of more
than 2 players, if one of your opponent is zerg, and you have
already explored his base. The the places that you have explored
will be covered by the Fog of War when your explorer had left or
being killed. And say that some one else attacked that zerg player
and the zerg player is using lurkers to fight back. If your main
window is positioned at where the lurkers are burrowed, you will be
able to see the spines coming out of the ground under Fog of War.

----

Hallucinated Devourers still cause the acid spore effect when they
attack. Yet they don't do any damage....thank god. Lurker spines
appear through the fog of war. ( I haven't verified this ) Valkyrie
missiles appear through the fog of war. ( I haven't verified this )
Medics who die, appear through the fog of war. ( I haven't verified
this ) Valkyries in groups of twelve, won't fire correctly at time.
( I haven't verified this ) CC bug!!!....... taken from BNet
forums..... And now for the amazing sliding comm center trick!Uh,
ok, play as terran. now, lift off the command center, and land it as
close to the nearest minerals as you can, right as its doing it's
landing animations, hold shift+s+m (really hard on ergo keyboards
) and click closer to the minerals. Your comm center will slide
ovver to the minerals and start mining. Here's a screen shot. Notice
I'm building an SCV in the comm center so it's not floating there.
If you don't believe me, go try it yourself, it may take a couple
tries to get it just right, but sliding the comm center around is
fun!

Note from Qwerty : this CC slide is very easy to do, and can be done
on the first try with a some practice. However it messes up the
game. If you slide, you cannot build on the land where your CC was.
Meaning you can really abuse this by sliding all over the map,
therefore making it impossible to build any structure at expansions,
especially islands.

When you blind a Dark Archon, it's spell casting range is reduced to
1, even with a spotter unit. Wouldn't it be nice if this wasn't a
bug? I think it'd make optical flare more worth the price if it had
this same effect on all spellcasting units.

If you cast blind on an enemy drone, and the drone makes a sunken or
spore colony, it'll have the sight range of 1.

----

Zergling to Mutalisk Bug

Extremely important bug discovered. This is most serious among the
bugs ever founded. All units & structures can morp into Lurkers and
Mutas. I'm NOT kidding and this is NOT a StarDraft patch. You can
use this bug in Multiplayer games like IPX or Battle.net. To use
this bug, you must have Hydrarisk Den(with Lurker developed) and
some hydrarisks. First, make some zerglings and set them to group
#1. Second, select one or more hydrarisks. As last, press L and
number 1 at the same time. If it is successful, Those group #1
zergling will be Cocoons(not zerg egg) and they will become Lurkers.
And if you cancel Cocoons, they will become Mutalisks. This applies
to any units and any structures. you can morp even 'Protoss Nexus'
and 'Zerg Hatchery' into Lurker and Mutalisks. More seriously, this
bug doesn't costs any resources and bug units have abilitys of
original units. For example, if you make Lurkers or Mutals with
cloaked wraiths, they can use cloaking. If you use Arbiters with
thi! s bug,the bug units makes cloaking fields for other units. If
you use observers, the bug units have full-cloaking ability and
observer's speed. If you use 'Zerg Hatchery', the bug unit have even
'Larvaes'.As I said above, This bug is NOT KIDDING. This bug is
discovered by one of Korean players, and already known to many many
Korean players. Maybe you had better avoid Zerg(or even Protoss)
players until the patch released.

The campaign editor has a nasty trigger bug that causes stacked
triggers to turn "invisible". This is being addressed in the v1.2
patch. A bug was discovered that allowed players to gain resources
freely during multiplayer games. This bug was abused during
Battle.net play and thus effected the ranking system somewhat. This
bug though has been addressed with the v1.1 patch available now.

 

[Bowser]

I love this topic already! Hmm... lets see why TA is better than SC.
1. more units! Like a lot more. You can also install the expansions and get more units and there are literally thousands of third party units out there.
2. Real Earth v1. The best TA map ever! Looks like the world! Take up more resources than SC does to run .
3. 1024x768 Resolution. Need I say more?
4. Third Party total conversions:
SW:TA
TA:FF
AA:TA
TA:WD
RA:TA
5. You can get third party AI's for TA that will wipe the floor with you
6. Infinite resources at a finite rate.
7. Construction units can assist in building units.

1) Starcraft has a better quality of units.
2) Um, this is like saying TA doesn't have the Lost Temple or SCVs
3) Do you know why Blizzard went with lower resolutions?
4) Who cares? It just proves TA needs third parties to make the game better.
5)Have you ever played against the computer Insane on Starcraft? Also, (I'm not sure) but I think you can make better AI through the map editor.
6) Infinite resources? Have you ever even played Starcraft? Do you know what b.net is?
7) Starcraft has only one building unit for each race. This is like saying 'oh yeah, well, TA can't warp buildings from Auir!'