The Rapture!

[chalkstc]

Hi lastseven,

This is not a rapture. Nor does it include all the saints. The first resurrection is only for those who are beheaded for Christ.

You are mistaken, for you read the text to fast......................

Rev 20:4 ​

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

​

KJV

Do you see the group in the red highlight? That is the rest of the church who did not die by martyrdom

There is one resurrection of the just and happens at the end of the age at the last trump on the last day of this age and the rspture is the means of the gathering the saints to Christ.

YBIC
Frankie

 

[LastSeven]

How does that line in red describe the rest of the church? That is quite the leap.

That entire piece describes one group. The martyrs. They were given judgment. They were beheaded. They did not worship the beast. They did not take the mark. And they lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. It's all one group, and they're all martyrs.

I realize we all would like to be included in the first resurrection but that's just not what the Bible says.

 

[chalkstc]

How does that line in red describe the rest of the church? That is quite the leap.

That entire piece describes one group. The martyrs. They were given judgment. They were beheaded. They did not worship the beast. They did not take the mark. And they lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. It's all one group, and they're all martyrs.

I realize we all would like to be included in the first resurrection but that's just not what the Bible says.

If you don't see it, I can't open yur eyes.

John 5:28 ​

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,​

29 ​

​

​

​

​

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

​

KJV

This is the only endtime resurrection. How does Jesus say "ALL" here and yet you say the first resurrection is for another group of martyrs only?

Frankie

 

[LastSeven]

He says "all" because this is the second and last resurrection. At that time, all who are in their graves will be resurrected. No confusion there. Not sure I get your point.

 

[Manasseh_]

He says "all" because this is the second and last resurrection. At that time, all who are in their graves will be resurrected. No confusion there. Not sure I get your point.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

There is only ONE first resurrection, resurrection based on what one beleives, if they believe in Christ , if they "eat" his flesh and "drink" his blood, anyone seeing and believing the Son.........

will take part in this resurrection of saints at the LAST DAY and then they will be ...............

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

.......blessed and holy to God and the second death cannot hurt them because they have been given immortality which comes at............

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


at his coming, at that day, his appearing.....................

The LAST DAY

 

[chalkstc]

LS,

He says "all" because this is the second and last resurrection. At that time, all who are in their graves will be resurrected. No confusion there. Not sure I get your point.

The hour that is coming is not jumping to the end of the 1000, but the one at the SC called the first. The one you refer to is "the rest of the dead" who are raised after the 1000. They are said to suffer the second death. This second death is not for believers, but the wicked who die at Armageddon.....................

Rev 20:9​

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

10​

​

​

​

​

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

11​

​

​

​

​

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​

12​

​

​

​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

13​

​

​

​

​

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

14​

​

​

​

​

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

15​

​

​

​

​

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

​

KJV

Now because we are already raised and glorified at the SC, we can never die again. But the "rest of the dead" do. A play on words...............born twice, die once. born once, die twice.

So what do you do now with John 5:28,29?.........................ALL, both groups, just and unjust.

Thus, "those on thrones" in Rev 20 are those who are rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ and the martyrs of all times are given special mention because they "loved not their lives unto death."

Remember, this portion of text follows the Coming of Christ in Rev 19. What happens to us when He comes?.......................................

Frankie

 

[LastSeven]

What makes you think that the second resurrection is only for the wicked? My Bible doesn't say that.

As a matter of fact, Jesus told us that we would be raised up on "the last day", so how then can we be raised up before the millennium when there are still so many days to come? Do you think the days during and after the millennium don't count as days?

 

[chalkstc]

LS,

What makes you think that the second resurrection is only for the wicked? My Bible doesn't say that.

As a matter of fact, Jesus told us that we would be raised up on "the last day", so how then can we be raised up before the millennium when there are still so many days to come? Do you think the days during and after the millennium don't count as days?

Because it is for the "rest of the dead" meaning they already died but will be raised after the 1000 and suffer a "second death".

The last day is the last one of this age. The Mill is the next age.

Jn 5:28,29 happens at the SC and not at the end of the mill. See Dan 12:1,2 and see that both wicked and just are raised after the time of trouble which is the same as the GT. Christ's Coming follows those days. (many means multitudes from both groups.

The rest of the dead are only the wicked that died at Armageddon. They are not cast into the LOF till the 1000 is finished.

Frankie

 

[POSTIOS]

What makes you think that the second resurrection is only for the wicked? My Bible doesn't say that.

As a matter of fact, Jesus told us that we would be raised up on "the last day", so how then can we be raised up before the millennium when there are still so many days to come? Do you think the days during and after the millennium don't count as days?

The millennium is one big long 1000 year day.

 

[LastSeven]

LS,
Because it is for the "rest of the dead" meaning they already died but will be raised after the 1000 and suffer a "second death".

"the rest of the dead" does not mean that they will suffer a second death. It just means they weren't part of the first resurrection. How could you possibly interpret that to mean they will suffer a second death? It doesn't say that at all. It just says "the rest of the dead".

In other words, there is one big group of dead people. Some are raised before the millennium and "the rest" are raised after. It doesn't say anything about suffering the second death.

The last day is the last one of this age. The Mill is the next age.

That's your assumption, but it doesn't say that. It just says the "last day". To me, when you talk about the last of anything, that means there are no more to follow. In other words, after "the last day" there are no more days.

The only time that happens is when there is no more sun or moon, and no more day or night and there is always light because the Lord God will be our light. That is on the new earth. After the millennium. That is the only time when there are no more days. No more rising and setting of the sun. No more night time. No more daytime. That makes sense. But to say that "the last day" is followed by more days, does not make sense.

Jn 5:28,29 happens at the SC and not at the end of the mill. See Dan 12:1,2 and see that both wicked and just are raised after the time of trouble which is the same as the GT. Christ's Coming follows those days. (many means multitudes from both groups.

Yes, both the wicked and the righteous take part in the second resurrection. Yes this happens at the same time as the great tribulation. Yes Christ comes right after this. I agree with all that. What I don't agree with is that any of this happens before the millennium.

Clearly, the resurrection that includes the wicked is the second resurrection. So how then can you say that this happens before the millennium?

The rest of the dead are only the wicked that died at Armageddon. They are not cast into the LOF till the 1000 is finished.

Nowhere does it say that the rest of the dead are only the wicked. And it certainly doesn't say anything about Armageddon. You are putting in your own words there. As a matter of fact, when it talks about "the rest of the dead" it does not describe that group at all.

However, the first group is described. They are the group that are beheaded for Christ. From that we can deduce that the second group includes everybody who was not beheaded for Christ. Which means, the second group includes both wicked and righteous.

Didn't you point to Daniel 12:1-2 on that? Why now are you saying that the second resurrection is only for the wicked? Do you think that Daniel 12 is speaking of the first resurrection? You seem to be contradicting yourself. I'm not sure you have your position straight.

 

[joyfulmom]

About my 2 million plus "blessings" - I have absolutely no clue since I am a "Newbie"! Lol! I'm still really trying to figure out this website. I haven't responded since the 16th, because I thought my posts had been removed. I finally found them. Lol! So, I will try again.

 

[POSTIOS]

Last seven,
Above you said,

The only time that happens is when there is no more sun or moon, and no more day or night and there is always light because the Lord God will be our light. That is on the new earth. After the millennium. That is the only time when there are no more days. No more rising and setting of the sun. No more night time. No more daytime. That makes sense. But to say that "the last day" is followed by more days, does not make sense.

​

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 

[POSTIOS]

So, lastseven, you do not think that the great tribulation is pre millennial then?
Does that mean that you believe that we are currently in the Millennium?

 

[chalkstc]

LS,

"the rest of the dead" does not mean that they will suffer a second death. It just means they weren't part of the first resurrection. How could you possibly interpret that to mean they will suffer a second death? It doesn't say that at all. It just says "the rest of the dead".

Okay, let's take this real slow. Where do the reat of the dead go because they were not part of the FR or resurrection of the just? Well, certainly not heaven. So what place is left? Hades, not Gehenna ( LOF) .................................

Rev 20:11​

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​

12​

​

​

​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

How do the dead stand if not rasied?

13​

​

​

​

​

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell ( Hades)delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

14​

​

​

​

​

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

15​

​

​

​

​

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you get? "Second death" means they previously died onece already. They are the rest of the dead who did not rise premill, but were raised after the Mill to be judged, and then die the second death in the LOF or Gehenna,

Frankie
PS ​

Luke 18:29​

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,​

30​

​

​

​

​

Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.​

KJV


Gal 1:4​

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:​

​

KJV

​

The end of this present age is the last day of it and the next age begins. Just as john says..............."the law came by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ". We know the law ended on a particular day when Jesus said "it is finished". That day was the last day of the law and the first day of grace.

Similarly We are raised premill and thus the last day of this present evil world.

The Mill is a time of peace, for the Prince of Peace is in residence here on the earth. "Swords into plowshares AND THEY WILL LEARN WAR NO MORE !"

And on the Mill's last day, Eternity future begins..................."World or age without end"..............

All previous ages and dispensations have an ending. Eternity does not.

 

[LastSeven]

About my 2 million plus "blessings" - I have absolutely no clue since I am a "Newbie"! Lol! I'm still really trying to figure out this website. I haven't responded since the 16th, because I thought my posts had been removed. I finally found them. Lol! So, I will try again.

Ya, I don't understand that blessing thing either.

 

[LastSeven]

Last seven,
Above you said,

The only time that happens is when there is no more sun or moon, and no more day or night and there is always light because the Lord God will be our light. That is on the new earth. After the millennium. That is the only time when there are no more days. No more rising and setting of the sun. No more night time. No more daytime. That makes sense. But to say that "the last day" is followed by more days, does not make sense.

​

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Exactly right. This is another description of the day of the Lord, which is the "last day". Which ushers in God's everlasting kingdom. The day of the Lord is the day that everything changes.

 

[LastSeven]

So, lastseven, you do not think that the great tribulation is pre millennial then?

Correct. I think the time that Jesus warned us about comes after the millennium, just before the day of the Lord. Just before his everlasting kingdom begins.

Does that mean that you believe that we are currently in the Millennium?

No. I do not think we are currently in the millennium. I think the millennium is an actual 1000 year period that will complete our seven thousand year age on this earth. The last one thousand years is our Sabbath. Our time of rest. The time that Satan is in prison.

Note: I do not believe the millennium is God's kingdom on earth because his kingdom is everlasting. The millennium is not.

I believe that the millennium period will begin soon. Then to be followed by:

1. A brief tribulation period.
2. The second resurrection.
3. Judging.
4. New heaven and earth.
5. God's everlasting kingdom.

And everybody lived happily ever after.

 

[LastSeven]

LS,

Okay, let's take this real slow. Where do the reat of the dead go because they were not part of the FR or resurrection of the just? Well, certainly not heaven. So what place is left? Hades, not Gehenna ( LOF) .................................

What do you mean where do the rest of the dead go? They go to be judged of course. Some of those who are judged will receive life, and others will receive death.

The second resurrection includes both righteous and wicked. Don't you know that? It sounds like you are assuming that the first resurrection is for the righteous and the second is for the wicked. That is not so.

There are many verses in the Bible that indicate both wicked and righteous will be raised up together.

Do you get? "Second death" means they previously died onece already. They are the rest of the dead who did not rise premill, but were raised after the Mill to be judged, and then die the second death in the LOF or Gehenna,

I know what the second death is. Revelation 21:8 says:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”​

And my point still stands. Nowhere does it say that all those in the second resurrection will suffer the second death. Which is the assumption you are making.

The end of this present age is the last day of it and the next age begins. Just as john says..............."the law came by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ". We know the law ended on a particular day when Jesus said "it is finished". That day was the last day of the law and the first day of grace.

Similarly We are raised premill and thus the last day of this present evil world.​

Please tell me on what verse of scripture do you base your assumption that the millennium is not part of this age. Is the Sabbath day not part of the same week? What God has brought together, let man not separate.

The Mill is a time of peace, for the Prince of Peace is in residence here on the earth. "Swords into plowshares AND THEY WILL LEARN WAR NO MORE !"​

This quote refers to God's everlasting kingdom which begins on the day of the Lord. Nowhere does it say that this is referring to the millennium. This is yet another assumption you are making. Are we starting to see a pattern here?​

 

[chalkstc]

What do you mean where do the rest of the dead go? They go to be judged of course. Some of those who are judged will receive life, and others will receive death.

The second resurrection includes both righteous and wicked. Don't you know that? It sounds like you are assuming that the first resurrection is for the righteous and the second is for the wicked. That is not so.

There are many verses in the Bible that indicate both wicked and righteous will be raised up together.

I know what the second death is. Revelation 21:8 says:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”​

And my point still stands. Nowhere does it say that all those in the second resurrection will suffer the second death. Which is the assumption you are making.



Please tell me on what verse of scripture do you base your assumption that the millennium is not part of this age. Is the Sabbath day not part of the same week? What God has brought together, let man not separate.

This quote refers to God's everlasting kingdom which begins on the day of the Lord. Nowhere does it say that this is referring to the millennium. This is yet another assumption you are making. Are we starting to see a pattern here?​

Brother Vincent. It is no use going over the same quotes over and over. We see different starting and finishing points of key issues.

All I can say is to read the last couple of chapters of Isa and ask if this is not the Mill or the next age. When do we reign with Christ, this age or the next age? Where did you find your answer...what text? What age do we learn war no more? What age do we turn swords into plowshares? What age does a child live to 100? etc, etc

Thx,
Frankie

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

To the OP:

Examine what the Lord said in Matthew 13:30 about the wheat and the tares.

Pay particular attention to 'who' goes first.

And again in Matthew 13:49-50.

The order of things that you ask about are listed here by The Lord himself.

The 'thief in the night', phrased in other scriptures, does not gather the righteous, but the wicked.

Forgive me...