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AGAIN YOU BASE YOUR BELIEFS ON SILENCE, YOU READ INTO SCRIPTURE THINGS IT IS NOT EVEN SAYING, SPECULATION OVER SPECULATION, I COULD DO THE SAME, THERES NO CARS MENTIONED IN REVELATIONS SO I CAN DETERMINE THAT THERE IS NO MORE GASOLINE AT THE TIME OF THE END, YOU CAN'T BASE DOCTRINE FROM SILENCE!
SO I GUESS WITH YOUR WEIRD THEORY, THAT NOW ALONG WITH TWO SECOND COMINGS, THERE ARE TWO TRIBULATIONS (WELL THAT FIGURES) THE WAY IT READS IS TRIBULATION BEGINS IN VERSE 9 WHEN CHRISTIANS ARE HATED BY ALL NATIONS, AND AS THE DAY DRAWS CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE END, THE TRIBULATION GETS GREATER AND GREATER, VERSE 22 IS VERY CLEAR HOW BAD IT GETS, AS IT IS A DESCRIPTIVE IN SAYING SHOULD THESE DAYS OF TRIBULATION CONTINUE ENDLESSLY EVERY CHRISTIAN WOULD DIE, BUT FOR OUR SAKE HE SHORTENED THEM, SO THERE WOULD BE SOME STILL ALIVE TO BE GATHERED UP WHEN HE COMES IN VERSE 31
The problem with this idea is that the 144k are not ev saved util after the tribulation has started. The fact is no one is rapture until the post trib return of Christ.
AGAIN YOU BASE YOUR BELIEFS ON SILENCE, YOU READ INTO SCRIPTURE THINGS IT IS NOT EVEN SAYING, SPECULATION OVER SPECULATION, I COULD DO THE SAME, THERES NO CARS MENTIONED IN REVELATIONS SO I CAN DETERMINE THAT THERE IS NO MORE GASOLINE AT THE TIME OF THE END, YOU CAN'T BASE DOCTRINE FROM SILENCE!
When someone comes along and virtually hijacks a thread, it can be irritating; but I think someone needs to calm down. You keep hollering like this you're gonna have very sore fingertips by morning
And the rest of us are gonna go cross-eyed!
If anything at all is evident, it is you have no idea what scripture teachesIf someone understands the Truth of Scripture
Are you saved? -Yes. Then Jesus has a word for you to watch and pray that you be counted worthy to escape all these things coming on all the inhabitants of the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man.This morning, I've been struggling with the rapture. Some very faithful prophets are saying it will be pre-tribulation, but the Bible says that those who endure to the end will be saved
[rapture -translation to glory in garments of priesthood =the changed body]
50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
["taken away to glory before the tribulation]
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
[it is not a secret taking away, and those who see and repent will endure to the end, and be saved in His name]
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
[the earth will be cleansed of all evil and all the wicked will be removed in the time coming, after the taking away of the saints to Glory]
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.
Jesus' words about pearls before swine comes to mind.
Listen, there is not two second comings. There is one return.
I stand corrected. We disagree.It begins when He appears in the sky and resurrects/removes the church/gathers and seals Israel - see Rev 7. It continues with the outpouring of wrath in the form of the trumpets, the antichrist, the resurrection/rapture of the two witnesses and the bowls - see Rev 8-11. Once the entire 7th seal is complete, Jesus comes on the clouds to destroy and bind the devil - see Rev 19. Then there is a resurrection of ONLY those who die as martyrs during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord. They are judged by the church are rewarded with eternal life. See Rev 20. The rest of the dead are not resurrected/judged until the end of the millennium because there is still living and dying to do during the millennium.
The tribulation began when Israel was desolated and continues to the time of the end, just like Jesus said in Matt 24 and Daniel 11 said, when a very specific event happens (Joel 2) and the elect are gathered. Then the antichrist arises.
The antichrist/devil has nothing to do with the abomination of desolation or the great tribulation. He arises after the great tribulation is cut short and is here during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord.
These are scriptural FACTS. It says what it says.
Jesus' words about pearls before swine comes to mind.
Listen, there is not two second comings. There is one return. It begins when He appears in the sky and resurrects/removes the church/gathers and seals Israel - see Rev 7. It continues with the outpouring of wrath in the form of the trumpets, the antichrist, the resurrection/rapture of the two witnesses and the bowls - see Rev 8-11. Once the entire 7th seal is complete, Jesus comes on the clouds to destroy and bind the devil - see Rev 19. Then there is a resurrection of ONLY those who die as martyrs during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord. They are judged by the church are rewarded with eternal life. See Rev 20. The rest of the dead are not resurrected/judged until the end of the millennium because there is still living and dying to do during the millennium.
The tribulation began when Israel was desolated and continues to the time of the end, just like Jesus said in Matt 24 and Daniel 11 said, when a very specific event happens (Joel 2) and the elect are gathered. Then the antichrist arises.
The antichrist/devil has nothing to do with the abomination of desolation or the great tribulation. He arises after the great tribulation is cut short and is here during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord.
These are scriptural FACTS. It says what it says.
I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until a couple of weeks ago when I read I Thess. 5:16-18. This, by the way, is the "proof text" for those believing in the Rapture before the Tribulation. There was a cross-reference by "the trumpet of God" which took me to I Cor. 15:52. That verse says this trumpet of God is the "last" trumpet.
Well, that made me go to Rev. 11:15 which tells about the "seventh" trumpet.
Many scholars believe these are two separate trumpets. However, the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11 is blown right before Christ sets up His kingdom here earth. That means, through logic, it is the "last trumpet"! If we are raptured when the last trumpet sounds, according to I Thess. 5:16-18 and I Cor. 15:52, then we are going to go through the Tribulation period. How many "last trumpets" can there be, logically?
Another piece of logic is this. When Christ comes back to earth after the Tribulation, Christians call that the "Second Coming" of Christ. They acknowledge His first coming was when He was born in human flesh. YET, they want to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture where they say Christ IS COMING in the clouds to meet us, etc. In reality, if you do the math - that makes THREE comings, doesn't it? And why would Jesus have to come halfway to meet us to take us back to Heaven? Couldn't He just stay seated on His throne, blow the trumpet, and have all of us appear in Heaven?
When I read that the trumpet that was being blown was "the last trumpet", that settled the issue for me. Hope this helps.
I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until a couple of weeks ago when I read I Thess. 5:16-18. This, by the way, is the "proof text" for those believing in the Rapture before the Tribulation. There was a cross-reference by "the trumpet of God" which took me to I Cor. 15:52. That verse says this trumpet of God is the "last" trumpet.
Well, that made me go to Rev. 11:15 which tells about the "seventh" trumpet.
Many scholars believe these are two separate trumpets. However, the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11 is blown right before Christ sets up His kingdom here earth. That means, through logic, it is the "last trumpet"! If we are raptured when the last trumpet sounds, according to I Thess. 5:16-18 and I Cor. 15:52, then we are going to go through the Tribulation period. How many "last trumpets" can there be, logically?
Another piece of logic is this. When Christ comes back to earth after the Tribulation, Christians call that the "Second Coming" of Christ. They acknowledge His first coming was when He was born in human flesh. YET, they want to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture where they say Christ IS COMING in the clouds to meet us, etc. In reality, if you do the math - that makes THREE comings, doesn't it? And why would Jesus have to come halfway to meet us to take us back to Heaven? Couldn't He just stay seated on His throne, blow the trumpet, and have all of us appear in Heaven?
When I read that the trumpet that was being blown was "the last trumpet", that settled the issue for me. Hope this helps.
The Word of God is not a fast food doctrine bar, and one cannot make doctrine up that is not totally correlating with the Living Oracles which were committed "only" to the namesake people of the New Man name, to show His one plan for the redemption of the sons of Adam.I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until a couple of weeks ago when I read I Thess. 5:16-18. This, by the way, is the "proof text" for those believing in the Rapture before the Tribulation. There was a cross-reference by "the trumpet of God" which took me to I Cor. 15:52. That verse says this trumpet of God is the "last" trumpet.
Well, that made me go to Rev. 11:15 which tells about the "seventh" trumpet.
Many scholars believe these are two separate trumpets. However, the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11 is blown right before Christ sets up His kingdom here earth. That means, through logic, it is the "last trumpet"! If we are raptured when the last trumpet sounds, according to I Thess. 5:16-18 and I Cor. 15:52, then we are going to go through the Tribulation period. How many "last trumpets" can there be, logically?
Another piece of logic is this. When Christ comes back to earth after the Tribulation, Christians call that the "Second Coming" of Christ. They acknowledge His first coming was when He was born in human flesh. YET, they want to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture where they say Christ IS COMING in the clouds to meet us, etc. In reality, if you do the math - that makes THREE comings, doesn't it? And why would Jesus have to come halfway to meet us to take us back to Heaven? Couldn't He just stay seated on His throne, blow the trumpet, and have all of us appear in Heaven?
When I read that the trumpet that was being blown was "the last trumpet", that settled the issue for me. Hope this helps.
thats one of the ways i came to it as wellI believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until a couple of weeks ago when I read I Thess. 5:16-18. This, by the way, is the "proof text" for those believing in the Rapture before the Tribulation. There was a cross-reference by "the trumpet of God" which took me to I Cor. 15:52. That verse says this trumpet of God is the "last" trumpet.
Well, that made me go to Rev. 11:15 which tells about the "seventh" trumpet.
Many scholars believe these are two separate trumpets. However, the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11 is blown right before Christ sets up His kingdom here earth. That means, through logic, it is the "last trumpet"! If we are raptured when the last trumpet sounds, according to I Thess. 5:16-18 and I Cor. 15:52, then we are going to go through the Tribulation period. How many "last trumpets" can there be, logically?
Another piece of logic is this. When Christ comes back to earth after the Tribulation, Christians call that the "Second Coming" of Christ. They acknowledge His first coming was when He was born in human flesh. YET, they want to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture where they say Christ IS COMING in the clouds to meet us, etc. In reality, if you do the math - that makes THREE comings, doesn't it? And why would Jesus have to come halfway to meet us to take us back to Heaven? Couldn't He just stay seated on His throne, blow the trumpet, and have all of us appear in Heaven?
When I read that the trumpet that was being blown was "the last trumpet", that settled the issue for me. Hope this helps.
The Word of God is not a fast food doctrine bar, and one cannot make doctrine up that is not totally correlating with the Living Oracles which were committed "only" to the namesake people of the New Man name, to show His one plan for the redemption of the sons of Adam.
We learn doctrines from the "Schoolmaster/Tutor", which was given to teach and instruct us His plans for us.
The "last trump" is not found in Revelation, which Paul speaks of for the call to "be gathered together unto the LORD as the ingathered harvest of earth, called "Pentecost", but is found in the Living Oracles, in Numbers 1`0:1-7. The silver trumpets Moses was shown in heaven were typed by Him in the Oracles, according to the pattern shown, and they are used to call the congregation to be gathered together before the LORD, at the doors of the tabernacle/temple.
One blast of the two together calls the elders, and two blasts of the two together calls the entire congregation to be gathered together before the doors, to hear the instruction of YHWH.
You'll find the instructions the congregation is given in Isaiah 26:19-21, when they are gathered together to Him before His temple doors, before that day of tribulation can come [Isaiah 27].
You'll find His commandment to "gather my people together unto Me", before He judges the earth, in Psalm 50.
You'll find what the congregation does, behind the shut doors of His temple, in the Oracles of Leviticus 8, which is to be dressed in holy garments and celebrate the consecration to priesthood dressed in New Man garments of priesthood [bodies made for Glory].
You'll also find how long the consecration to priesthood celebration goes on, behind the shut doors, in Leviticus 8 [one week].
You'll find the LORD "taking away out of the midst of the earth the saints, which are His congregation, before He judges the inhabitants of the whole earth, and their hearts melt for fear, in Psalm 75:2,3 [in the original Hebrew].
You'll see that there is no way anyone can have a doctrine that is new, which is not found and revealed in the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name, when you learn that unto the Jews only, who bear the name of the New Man -who is YHWH the Word come in flesh- when you are instructed in the Oracles committed to His namesake people.
Hbr 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles[abc's] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Rom 3:1,2 ...What advantage hath the Jews... Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
The gathering together unto Christ is called by two heavenly trumpets type din silver by Moses, which blow once, and then a second time in the series of two, ordained to call the entire congregation to be gathered together unto the LORD, before His temple doors.
We who are alive and remain shall be changed at the last blast of the two gathering together to the LORD trumpets, and we shall meet them in the air/heavens, and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
First thing we do is -we party!
Hear ye.........hear ye.............hear ye!!!!!!!!!
I am now going to speak many words of wisdom and truth!
I have finally figured this whole thing out!
The answer is this........
YOU CAN"T FIGURE IT OUT!!!!!!!!! NOBODY CAN!!!!!
Then why did God bother to tell you about it? So you can decide it's not important? God is NOT the author of confusion. Meat is tougher then Milk to digest, to be sure, but it's necessary for your survival. Don't let the satanic doctrine of a pre-trib rapture stand in your way.
Satanic doctrine????? I think you need a few more lessons. You might study up on fig trees.
Friend, I was deceived by that doctrine myself in the late 1990s. My Father has taught me many lessons about it through His Word. 100% Satanic.
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