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The Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Smilin, Aug 5, 2002.

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  1. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    What if the belief in the "Rapture" is the great illusion that befalls men in the last days? Look at the bookstores; the Left behind series is making millions. And what are we told about adding and taking away from the book of Revelation=God will add those plagues to us, and also take away our part in the book of life. Don't become swayed, trust in the bible.

    The disciples give us a clear warning to be prepared. We are told to have our armour of God on to fight the spiritual battle with Satan. There will be a dual Tribulation. What if, the tribulation began with the Holocaust, and we (being brothers of Christ) must also be persecuted and put to death as they were? I am not Jewish, but I consider those who were slaughtered to be my brethren. Who then is my neighbor?
    There is a TIME that passes between those two events (the great tribulation) Note the fifth seal. Yes, it has been fifty years since the last world war, but look around us; there are countries waiting to attack the Christians. And how will the world respond? So much iniquity has been spread throughout the earth. But remember; because of that=the love of many shall wax cold, but he that endureth to the END shall be saved.

    We shall all suffer through the Tribulation. How we endure it, will depend upon our relationship with the Father. Don't be fooled into thinking that millions of people will simply disappear. Remember the parable that Jesus gave us about the tares and the wheat? The tares were taken first. And thrown into the fire. We are told not to look back, not to take anything out of the house, not to save our own lives.
    Wait for a Rapture? No, but rather, be prepared to suffer through persecution, and affliction. Strengthen your relationship with God. Never cease in praying. Because we are told comfortingly, that we should do this; so that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things coming on the earth.
    Amen.
     
  2. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    If this applies to the resurrection/rapture, was Jesus the firstfruits one of the tares? Of course not.

    If the tares are removed before the great tribulation, what is the purpose of the Second Coming and the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies by Christ and His armies (consisting of the saints, returning with Him)? Why is there still evil during the great tribulation if the tares had been already removed?

    Are you calling those who take place in the first resurrection of Revelation 20 the "bad guys" and those who take place in the second resurrection of Revelation 20 the "good guys"?

    It must be, then, that Matthew 13:30 does not apply to the resurrection/rapture.

    "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." Luke 21:28

    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36


     
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    (quote)Remember the parable that Jesus gave us about the tares and the wheat? The tares were taken first.

    This is a referance to the Church where the wheat and tares have grown together for almost 2000 years. We are told that God is going to purify the church by removing the tares.

    Matthew 13:43
    Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

    The Church will be purified before she is taken out of here. When Jesus returns she will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle. The tares make up the harlot church that is apostate and in bed with the world. UnHoly and Unsanctifed, out watching the worlds entertainment and so forth.

    Song 6:10
        Who is she who looks forth as the morning,
        Fair as the moon,
        Clear as the sun,
        Awesome as an army with banners?
     


     
     
  4. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Why do you believe that the tares will be removed before the tribulation? The bible clearly tells us that the Christians will be persecuted during the tribulation and those who come out of it, shall suffer no more.
    "In your patience posess ye yer souls."
    "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold; but he that endureth until the end, the same shall be saved."

    The tares and the wheat parable is referring to the end of the world; God allows them to grow together. (lest the wheat be pulled up with the tares) Here is Gods patience for us. Notice that the earth is "ripe for the harvest". It is time. The angels (reapers) are commanded to gather first the tares (wicked) to be burned and then the wheat (chosen) gathered into his barn. And it will be done in that order.
    What I am saying is to be prepared (spiritually) to have to go through the tribulation, as the disciples clearly tell us. Whether we do or not, is up to our creator. But is it foolish to place false security in the belief that we will all simply vanish, and escape death, or persecution?
    When we are told by Christ himself, that it is GOOD to be persecuted because of his name. It is GOOD to be put to death for his name sake.
    And we are told not to fear those who can kill the flesh, because once we are dead nothing more can be done; but to fear HIM who has the keys to death and hell.

    Our comfort is in the Word of God. Read them, and you shall remember.

    Wildfire
     
  5. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." Luke 21:28

    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36

    Luke is believed to be the only Gentile writer of the New Testament.  This may be the reason for the more Gentile emphasis of the Gospel of Luke as compared to the more Jewish emphasis of the Gospel of Matthew. As such, these promises especially have application to Gentile Christianity in regards to the tribulation and their hope in being the last generation that will be the one to "escape all these things".

    Of course, Gentile Christianity has gone on for nearly 2000 years, has suffered tribulation throughout, and the end is not yet.  However, while facing persecution, such hope has comforted them in their suffering and has enboldened them to proclaim the Gospel to the confusion and astonishment of their enemies.  They have been able to say with Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" and with Paul, "To live is Christ, to die is gain" and "We would rather be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord."
     
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    I believe there will be a rapture. "Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But many Christians believe that they will be "caught up" all the way into heaven, and that this will happen before the tribulation, when the Bible doesn't promise us either of these things. It says that we Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), that we will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus as he descends at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), that this will happen "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    What things?

    Note that Jesus is speaking to the same people in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

    I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us will go through the great tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).
     
  7. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Posttrib; yes, we are told to comfort ourselves with those words (that we being alive, will be caught up together in the clouds with the Lord) It is a sweet reward of promise and hope for those who were made to suffer through the tribulation.
    "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore, neither shall the sun light on them, or any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters and God shall wipe away all the tears from their eyes."

    My concern is that those who fear death, will place their strength in the "pre-rapture belief", and not be strong enough (spiritually) to make it through that enduring time. Note that during this terrible time, even the elect are swayed. But those who do not take the "mark" of the beast (but remain faithful in God) are greatly rewarded in heaven, as they stand before the throne wearing white robes in multitudes that no man can count.

    What will happen here on this earth, to us, or our children? sigh...(it is an impossible thought) that anything horrendous could ever occur on American soil, but if it is Gods will, then it will be fulfilled. **There is a dual part to the tribulation; notice that at the opening of the fifth seal, those who were SLAIN are told to rest for a little season, until their fellowservants and brethren should be killed as they were. (think about this) The greatest human tragedy was the slaughter of millions of Jews less than fifty years ago! Have we forgotten, that a wicked/evil event of that nature could happen again; (yes, to us) and because it is written that all things will be fulfilled, that it shall.

    (chilling) yes, but we are told to have faith. And preserverance. And patience. And mostly, love.

    Wildfire
     
  8. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Remember the Sermon on the Mount:

    27  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
    28  And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
    29  And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
    30  Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
    31   Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
    32  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
    33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:27-34

    We are encouraged to face the tribulation of this world on a day-to-day basis, taking no thought of the morrow.

    This is also consistent with us being being encouraged to be watchful today and not tomorrow.




     
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    In the coming world-wide persecution of us Christians (Matthew 24:9-10), I believe the love for our families, especially our children, will be used in an attempt to turn us away from Jesus. Our persecutors could say something like "Renounce Jesus now or we will torture your child in front of you! Renounce Jesus now!" When our child looks up at us and begins to cry, how will we react?

    We must be willing to forsake everything before forsaking Christ, or we are lost: "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 10:35-39).

    Even if we remain faithful to Jesus under persecution, our families may not:

    "Ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death" (Luke 21:16).

    "Keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house" (Micah 7:5-6).

    Even if we and our families manage to escape persecution altogether, we still must be prepared to see our little ones starve to death without getting angry with God.

    "He that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:37).

    "The children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city. They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom" (Lamentations 2:11-12).

    "Woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" (Mark 13:17)

    "Behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck" (Luke 23:29).

    I expect Satan will use the failure of a pre-trib rapture to happen as a great weapon against Christians who believed with all their heart that Jesus had promised them a pre-trib rapture. He could say something like: "Jesus promised you that he would whisk you away before the tribulation started, but did he keep his word? No. He just wants you and your poor baby to suffer and starve to death for his amusement! You don't believe me? Read it for yourself in Job 9:22-23 and Proverbs 1:26. But look here, I'm not laughing at you, I'm offering you and your baby food to eat. Why? Because, unlike him, I care about what happens to you. All you need to do is take this little mark on your hand and worship me and my man here for a little bit and we'll take perfect care of you."

    I believe it's possible that some Christians, desperate in their suffering and the suffering of their little ones, could fall for this deception, for haven't many already fallen for a false gospel which says Jesus saved them from the tribulation?

    "They shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

    "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23).

    Note that in Matthew 6:31-34 the Greek word for "thought" means to be anxious. We aren't to be anxious about anything (Philippians 4:6), but I believe we are to take heed to Christ's warnings about what is coming (Mark 13:5-23), just as we would if we heard a hurricane was coming our way.

    I believe we all -- whether we believe pre-trib or post-trib -- must begin in these days to face and get free of any fear of the coming tribulation and any fear of death:

    "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

    "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).

    "Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).

    "Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).

    "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).
     
  10. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    (thank you both) I have been greatly concerned over this lately; I have been blessed with three beautiful, God-like children and I cannot imagine them suffering in the hands of hatred. Where there is concern, there is also comfort.

    Wildfire
     
  11. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Hello All

    I would also like to offer some reasoning as well, if you don't mind. :)

    We have been shown by God himself in the past of how He cares for His people. We have examples in Noah, and Moses, as well as many others. We also have many verses in the Word that show the elect of God that no harm can come to them.

    Have a look at:

    Rev: 9:4, Rev: 7:2-3

    Now I know many will tell you that there are only going to be 144,000 sealed. If we look at this further, we see that there will be, and already are at this time, 12000 sealed from each tribe. (Rev. 7:4-8 )

    We see that Moses had this seal of God, and led the tribes of Isreal to the promised land. We also see after a deeper study, that not everyone that where with these tribes, were of those tribes. They were friends, co-workers,and many others. How then were they protected by God? Because they were grafted into the blood line, they became as a jew, and not gentile.

    We can see a further study of this in the new testement of how people become jew. One place off the top of my head that comes to me is:

    Rom. 2:28-29

    Also, have a look at this verse:

    Gal. 3-29, and for a further study, read all of Gal. 3.

    There will be 144,000 leaders that God has for His people all over the world, 12000 from each tribe. God, right now at this time is calling His people out, to come out of the false churches and teachings that have gone on long enough. There are many that have this feeling of leaving, like "I've got to pack my bags and go", but they do not know where they are to go. This is (I feel) the Spirit of God working on His people, getting them ready for the Exodus that is about to take place. When the time is right (Gods time) we will go, and we will find our "Moses" if you will.

    Yes, there are going to be people that don't realise this when the time comes, and they will not be under the protection of God, they will suffer, and die at the hand of the Anti-Christ church, but they will gain the crown. There will also be those that are called for this mission to testify before the whole world, and the world will hear the True Word Of God as the Holy Spirit speaks through them at that time, as it is writen in Mark 13:11.

    Anyway, I could add more, but don't want to be long winded. Those who know, know....

     

    Patrick
     
  12. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
     

    Shane,

    It's obvious that this prophecy hasn't occurred yet.

    I'm simply suggesting to consider that the following

    prophecies described in Revelations have ALREADY

    occured in History.....

    1. The coming of the beast (Consider

    the acts of Nero, Hitler to name a few)

    2. The coming of the false prophet

    (How many false prophets have we seen

    since the ascension of Christ)

    3. The war in heaven (We're taught Satan

    was cast from heaven, is this story in Revelations

    REALLY telling us that Satan WILL ONCE AGAIN

    be cast from heaven with a vast number of angels????

    3. The tribulation (which includes the above 2)

    (Was the early church not persucuted by the Roman

    Empire before being accepted? Could this period of

    history ACTUALLY BE the tribulation?????)

    4. Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit

    (Is Satan not bound with limited powers over Christians

    still today? Did Christ's victory over death and the grave not play

    a role in the limitation of Satan's power?)

    5. Satan loosed (This one I must admit troubles me,

    Satan knows his time is limited, and the bible tells

    us he roams seekin whom he may devour)

     

    I saw a billboard on an interstate this weekend that deeply

    disturbed me.  On this matter, I've started a new thread.

    But i've read and researched MANY different doctrines,

    beliefs, teachings, books, charts, etc etc on these

    events (Revelations) and am hoping to come to an inner peace with it all.

     

    Seek and ye shall find....... :pray:

    it all.

     

    I welcome all comments
     
  13. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The casting of Satan into the pit for a thousand years comes at the time of the first resurrection. So it has not happened yet.
    And the first resurrection is the first and only time that the saints are caught up to meet Jesus in the air, whatever "air"means. The so-called "rapture".

    And this clearly takes place just after the battle of Armageddon in Rev. 19
    at the end of the great tribulation period.

    The next major event is when Satan is released after the thousand years to decieve the nations for a short time just before the battle of Gog and Magog.
     
  14. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    Duane, you state:

    The casting of Satan into the pit for a thousand years comes at the time of the first resurrection. So it has not happened yet.

    When Christ arose from the dead and broke the chains of death,
    Did this not limit Satan's power over us?

    Consider this...Could Satan be in the pit now...as we speek...
    with limited power.

    Another point to mention that bothers me...Many take the
    timetable the bible gives us in Revelations literally.
    But consider the following scripture:

    Psalm 90
    3 You turn men back to dust,
    saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men."
    4 For a thousand years in your sight
    are like a day that has just gone by,
    or like a watch in the night.
    5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death;
    they are like the new grass of the morning-
     
  15. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    A thousand years may seem like a day to God, but to us it is still a thousand years.
    And I do not think Satan could be in the pit now, just look at the state of the world. Satan is not less powerfull now, but very powerfull. That event is very clearly placed in Revelation as being at the end of the tribulation period after the battle at the time of the first resurrection.

    Jesus defeated death but Satan is not bound yet. Satans power is more limited only by the fact of our greater faith in Jesus because of His resurrection, I think. But as we are the ones that give Satan his power over us, it is up to us to limit that power on our lives. Satan has no power over us, zilch, nada, if we turn away from evil.

    Revelation does not give a specific timetable, but it indicates the times and seasons. And I agree that determining exactly what it means is open to all sorts of interpretations. I have other reasons also for the timetable that I think is correct. But, hey, I could be wrong.
     
  16. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    Yes Duane,
    I agree that Satan has power over us..
    ONLY if we submit to his temptations...
    Thus the limitation of his powers.
    As far as the current state of the world..
    that's a topic for another thread.
     
  17. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
  18. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,624
    Atheist
    Private
    To all Preterists posting in this forum:

    Please adhear to forum rules, and specifically to what Erwin has outlined about this forum.

    Click Here.

    Any Preterists, who continue posting Preterist views, links, etc., in the Eschatology forum, will have their account suspended for two weeks.


    Thank you for your cooperation. :)

    John
     
  19. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

    +780
    Christian
    US-Others
    It is like you have read my soul.
     
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