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The Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Smilin, Aug 5, 2002.

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  1. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Again, from Revelation 5:9, we are told the 24 elders are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation".

    This is very similar to the description of where the "great multitude" of Revelation 7 comes from, and note the continuity of the scene from Revelation 4 and 5 and that of the 24 elders:

    "9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen." Revelation 7:9-12


    Note that in Revelation 7:11 that "all the angels" is mentioned separately from both the "24 elders" and the "four beasts". 

    It might be said, then, that the 24 elders are leaders of the "great multitude", and that the 4 beasts are leaders of "all the angels".  Some have said the 4 beasts are seraphim, special angels standing in the presence of God.  The 24 elders redeemed from the earth could represent the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel.  "All the angels" is probably the same angels described in Revelation 5:11 as "ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands". The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 redeemed from the earth is a group that "no man could number".

    I believe that the fact that both the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" is testimony of the fact of how precious God holds our prayers over the ages..this would include the prayers of the 24 elders themselves redeemed from the earth.
     
  2. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
  3. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Let's look again at Revelation 5:9 and the surrounding verses..

    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Revelation 5:8-10



    Actually, many posttribulationists (see http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/24elders.html ) argue against the KJV's use of the pronoun us instead of them (as in the NASB, NIV and new Bible versions). 

    I, myself, consistently use the KJV which I see you do as well, but that is for another discussion.

    It might be said that even if it is "them" instead of "us", we do have an example in Exodus 15:13, 16-17 of the Israelites singing about themselves in the third person.

    Perhaps, both "them" and "us" are correct!  Perhaps the 24 elders are singing "us" and the 4 beasts are singing "them"!
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

    Note that this doesn't require the 24 elders not be angels. Do the following verses require that the scribes and chief priests not be people? "And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine" (Mark 11:18); "all the people will stone us" (Luke 20:6). Does the following verse require that the Peter and John and the lame man not be people? "And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them" (Acts 3:11). Does the following verse require that Moses not be a person? "When Moses had spoken every precept to all the people" (Hebrews 9:19).  
     
  5. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    But the 24 elders are out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), unless you try to change the pronoun "us" to "them" as the new Bible versions do. 
     
  6. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
     

    Julie,

    Can you elaborate?  When Our Saviour sets foot on the

    earth 7 years later????  I've always took it that Christ

    will only return once, (to gather his flock).  Can you offer

    scripture to support your statement....??? :confused:
     
  7. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
     

    Okay, yall have lost me on this one.  Please elaborate on

    the tie between the 24 elders and the second coming of

    Christ.  All comments are requested and appreciated.

    My original question was to initiate a discussion of the

    events that will occur at the second coming of Christ.

    And to initiate discussions on 'the Rapture'

    You've lost me on the debate on the meaning of the 24

    elders???????? :help:
     
  8. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    The 24 elders are first seen in Chapter 4.  They are present before the opening of the scrolls (Revelation 5:9).  


    This gives incentive for post-tribulationalists to want to call them angels and not human beings.

    It seems clear to me from studying the 24 elders, they are indeed human beings, since they come out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation (Revelation 5:9).

    The presence of the 24 elders is not only significant to the concept of the rapture, but also to its timing.
     
  9. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
     

    Rollin Thunder,

    My intention was not to incite an argument,

    Just to learn what I could concerning this topic.

    Consider this passage:

    Ephesians 4


    <I>Unity in the Body of Christ </I>

    <SUP>1</SUP>As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. <SUP>2</SUP>Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. <SUP>3</SUP>Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

    &nbsp;

    We as children of God must have patience with one another.

    I started the conversation, simply because as you can see,

    there are many different teachings as well as beliefs concerning

    this topic.&nbsp; My aim was to start a discussion that we all could

    learn from.

    Your brother in Christ...

    Rick..aka Smilin
     
  10. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    Smilin, did you look at the chart in the link I gave?
     
  11. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    Julie,
    Thanks for the link, I've printed it out for study.
     
  12. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    This is a cross post, I guess. In any event it seems equally applicable to two seperate threads.

     
  13. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    I found the chart to be incredibly hard to comprehend, in no small part because of the lovely but distracting graphics. My question in a nutshell is, since we know certain believers are going to be marked by the seal of God and will be protected. (Rev 7:3, 9:4) So if the followers of Christ will be sealed and protected through all this tribulation, how can they then have been raptured?
     
  14. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    Shane,
    The chart Julie links to shows a timeline from left to right.
    Beginning with the ascension of Christ, it depicts
    the events that are to occur (or have occured)

    I pose this for thought.....which may be a matter for another
    thread.

    What if the tribulation period, the coming of the
    anti-christ, & the false prophet has ALREADY occured?

    We know that the early church was prosecuted,
    christians burned in the Garden's of Nero, etc.
    as history shows us.

    Is it conceivable that all prophecies in Revelation
    have ALREADY occured with exception of Judgement
    Day?

    Just something I wanted to throw out for discussion.

    For as the first passage in Revelation goes:

    Revelation 1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    MUST shortly come to pass?

    I welcome all comments on this matter.

    Is it conceivable that all scripture shown
    in the chart that Julie posted has been
    fulfilled, save the Judgement Day?
     
  15. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    That's what Preterists and apparently Catholics believe Smilin, although so far no Catholic has been willing to speak straight to me on this issue.

    I find it impossible to believe that the events foretold in the Bible concerning Christ returning in the air and elements melting in fervent heat, and there being a new heavens and earth, could possibly have happened already. If such were the case, I would have to BE in the new earth, as the old is expressly to be destroyed according to the scripture.

    Frankly I find the hide and seek hit and run tactics of preterists to be even more evidence that they have no case. You came here asking questions, and you go out with leading statements. I think it's obvious at this point you've already made up your mind on the question. If this degenerates into yet another preterist presentation I think I shall scream.

    If preterists want to talk about their issues, I'd be happy if they posted their beliefs plainly, preferably with the term "preterist" in the title of the thread, as the thing has been discussed ad nauseum and I am as convinced as I can be that it is a false interpretation, not to say any particular sign of apostacy, but false nonetheless.

    If anyone has an answer for the specific questions I asked, I'd really like to understand them.
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that while different Greek manuscripts have different pronouns, none requires that the 24 elders themselves be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), for note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing this they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

    Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)
     
  17. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Perhaps Proverbs 25:2 applies here (See Revelation 1:6 and 5:10)!&nbsp;

    Note the following&nbsp;similarities between the 24 elders and "those that overcome" in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3:

    Summary of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:4:

    1. Upon 24 seats around the throne

    2. Clothed in white raiment

    3. With crowns of gold

    "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Revelation 4:4

    Comparison with the Church in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3:
    1.

    "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 (Letter to Laodicea)

    2.
    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5 (Letter to Philadelphia)

    3a.
    "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11 (Letter to Philadelphia)

    3b.
    "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10(Letter to Smyrna)
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    "Round about the throne (thronos) were four and twenty seats (thronos): and upon the seats (thronos) I saw four and twenty elders sitting" (Revelation 4:4).

    The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

    Note that angels can also be described as wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be men.&nbsp;&nbsp;

    Note that even the locusts can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil himself wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), so angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) could wear crowns.&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
     
  20. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    When singing the Marine's Hymn, note that civilians, soldiers, airmen, and sailors rarely change the words "we" to "they".

    "From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli,

    We fight our country's battles in the air, on land and sea.

    First to fight for right and freedom, and to keep our honor clean;

    We are proud to claim the title of United States Marine."


    &nbsp;
     
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