The Rapture?

[mcfly1960]

the 24 elders are angelic rulers

Again, from Revelation 5:9, we are told the 24 elders are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation".

This is very similar to the description of where the "great multitude" of Revelation 7 comes from, and note the continuity of the scene from Revelation 4 and 5 and that of the 24 elders:

"9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen." Revelation 7:9-12

Note that in Revelation 7:11 that "all the angels" is mentioned separately from both the "24 elders" and the "four beasts". 

It might be said, then, that the 24 elders are leaders of the "great multitude", and that the 4 beasts are leaders of "all the angels".  Some have said the 4 beasts are seraphim, special angels standing in the presence of God.  The 24 elders redeemed from the earth could represent the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel.  "All the angels" is probably the same angels described in Revelation 5:11 as "ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands". The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 redeemed from the earth is a group that "no man could number".

I believe that the fact that both the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" is testimony of the fact of how precious God holds our prayers over the ages..this would include the prayers of the 24 elders themselves redeemed from the earth.

 

[Julie]

Good chart on the Rapture by CLARENCE LARKIN :

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/lcoming.gif

 

Rev 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[mcfly1960]

Note again that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing "thou hast redeemed US" (Revelation 5:9)

Let's look again at Revelation 5:9 and the surrounding verses..

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Revelation 5:8-10


Actually, many posttribulationists (see http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/24elders.html&nbsp argue against the KJV's use of the pronoun us instead of them (as in the NASB, NIV and new Bible versions). 

I, myself, consistently use the KJV which I see you do as well, but that is for another discussion.

It might be said that even if it is "them" instead of "us", we do have an example in Exodus 15:13, 16-17 of the Israelites singing about themselves in the third person.

Perhaps, both "them" and "us" are correct!  Perhaps the 24 elders are singing "us" and the 4 beasts are singing "them"!

 

[postrib]

...the "great multitude"...

I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

..."all the angels" is mentioned separately from both the "24 elders"...

Note that this doesn't require the 24 elders not be angels. Do the following verses require that the scribes and chief priests not be people? "And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine" (Mark 11:18); "all the people will stone us" (Luke 20:6). Does the following verse require that the Peter and John and the lame man not be people? "And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them" (Acts 3:11). Does the following verse require that Moses not be a person? "When Moses had spoken every precept to all the people" (Hebrews 9:19).  

 

[mcfly1960]

Note that this doesn't require the 24 elders not be angels

But the 24 elders are out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), unless you try to change the pronoun "us" to "them" as the new Bible versions do. 

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by Julie
The second coming is in two parts, first in the clouds =the rapture and then when The Lord Jesus Christ sets foot on the earth 7 years later=advent.

 

Julie,

Can you elaborate?  When Our Saviour sets foot on the

earth 7 years later????  I've always took it that Christ

will only return once, (to gather his flock).  Can you offer

scripture to support your statement....???

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by mcfly1960


But the 24 elders are out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), unless you try to change the pronoun "us" to "them" as the new Bible versions do. 

 

Okay, yall have lost me on this one.  Please elaborate on

the tie between the 24 elders and the second coming of

Christ.  All comments are requested and appreciated.

My original question was to initiate a discussion of the

events that will occur at the second coming of Christ.

And to initiate discussions on 'the Rapture'

You've lost me on the debate on the meaning of the 24

elders????????

 

[mcfly1960]

Originally posted by Smilin


 

Okay, yall have lost me on this one.  Please elaborate on

the tie between the 24 elders and the second coming of

Christ.  All comments are requested and appreciated.

My original question was to initiate a discussion of the

events that will occur at the second coming of Christ.

And to initiate discussions on 'the Rapture'

You've lost me on the debate on the meaning of the 24

elders????????

The 24 elders are first seen in Chapter 4.  They are present before the opening of the scrolls (Revelation 5:9).  


This gives incentive for post-tribulationalists to want to call them angels and not human beings.

It seems clear to me from studying the 24 elders, they are indeed human beings, since they come out of "every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation (Revelation 5:9).

The presence of the 24 elders is not only significant to the concept of the rapture, but also to its timing.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER


I wonder how many are in the flock you Pastor?? And will any of them be raptured, or will they all be left behind?? I also wonder why you continue to stay with a Forum that you originally said was too One dimentional?? This Forum is for believers who have faith in the promises of our Lord, like the soon coming rapture, and seven year tribulation. You can print your stuff in the daily news paper and the your whole neighborhood will believe it, because it doesn't require any faith, only a boring human mind. I wonder how many of your flock fall asleep when you deliver your message?? It sure is a sad thing to think about though, so I'm outta here.

 

Rollin Thunder,

My intention was not to incite an argument,

Just to learn what I could concerning this topic.

Consider this passage:

Ephesians 4


<I>Unity in the Body of Christ </I>

<SUP>1</SUP>As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. <SUP>2</SUP>Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. <SUP>3</SUP>Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

&nbsp;

We as children of God must have patience with one another.

I started the conversation, simply because as you can see,

there are many different teachings as well as beliefs concerning

this topic.&nbsp; My aim was to start a discussion that we all could

learn from.

Your brother in Christ...

Rick..aka Smilin

 

[Julie]

Smilin, did you look at the chart in the link I gave?

 

[Smilin]

Julie,
Thanks for the link, I've printed it out for study.

 

[Shane Roach]

This is a cross post, I guess. In any event it seems equally applicable to two seperate threads.

Originally posted by Shane Roach
This is just me babbling, please don't take this too terribly seriously.

The looks of the Revelation story seem to indicate that, whatever proportion of the population may or may not be Christian by the last days, that there will first be a great falling away. This coupled with the idea that there can actually be a person doing great signs and wonders and that anyone at all would be able to believe in such a person despite the clear warnings of the Bible make it appear that the final days will be quite clear to believers, but quite obscure to others.

Here is where I will get off the beaten path. Ok, the idea of the Antichrist or Beast is that he will claim to be god. From the earliest times, we have been warned not to participate in idolatry, and there is a verse that specifically refers to idolators as those who worship the creation more than the creator. So I'm thinking that this will be a person who has ascribed spiritual power to this physical world. Such a person will have unified science and technology to the concept of spirituality to the point that miracles can be done without raising much of a suspicion concerning religion. In fact, the very idea of a spirit seperate and superior to that of the physical world will be repugnant to such people.

This is why I fond the pre-trib position to be untenable. The entire concept of a tribulation is a specific tribulation of Christians. Christs followers are then marked, and they do not suffer the plagues that happen to those who deny Christ. Nevertheless, the tribulation of the saints is specifically FOR the saints, having to do with the oft mentioned mark of the beast and so forth, so obviously this cannot happen if all the Christians have already floated off to heaven.

Ok that's my 2 cents, spend it well.

 

[Shane Roach]

Originally posted by Julie
Good chart on the Rapture by CLARENCE LARKIN :

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/lcoming.gif

&nbsp;

Rev 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I found the chart to be incredibly hard to comprehend, in no small part because of the lovely but distracting graphics. My question in a nutshell is, since we know certain believers are going to be marked by the seal of God and will be protected. (Rev 7:3, 9:4) So if the followers of Christ will be sealed and protected through all this tribulation, how can they then have been raptured?

 

[Smilin]

Shane,
The chart Julie links to shows a timeline from left to right.
Beginning with the ascension of Christ, it depicts
the events that are to occur (or have occured)

I pose this for thought.....which may be a matter for another
thread.

What if the tribulation period, the coming of the
anti-christ, & the false prophet has ALREADY occured?

We know that the early church was prosecuted,
christians burned in the Garden's of Nero, etc.
as history shows us.

Is it conceivable that all prophecies in Revelation
have ALREADY occured with exception of Judgement
Day?

Just something I wanted to throw out for discussion.

For as the first passage in Revelation goes:

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

MUST shortly come to pass?

I welcome all comments on this matter.

Is it conceivable that all scripture shown
in the chart that Julie posted has been
fulfilled, save the Judgement Day?

 

[Shane Roach]

That's what Preterists and apparently Catholics believe Smilin, although so far no Catholic has been willing to speak straight to me on this issue.

I find it impossible to believe that the events foretold in the Bible concerning Christ returning in the air and elements melting in fervent heat, and there being a new heavens and earth, could possibly have happened already. If such were the case, I would have to BE in the new earth, as the old is expressly to be destroyed according to the scripture.

Frankly I find the hide and seek hit and run tactics of preterists to be even more evidence that they have no case. You came here asking questions, and you go out with leading statements. I think it's obvious at this point you've already made up your mind on the question. If this degenerates into yet another preterist presentation I think I shall scream.

If preterists want to talk about their issues, I'd be happy if they posted their beliefs plainly, preferably with the term "preterist" in the title of the thread, as the thing has been discussed ad nauseum and I am as convinced as I can be that it is a false interpretation, not to say any particular sign of apostacy, but false nonetheless.

If anyone has an answer for the specific questions I asked, I'd really like to understand them.

 

[postrib]

...the 24 elders are out of&nbsp;"every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), unless you try to change the pronoun "us" to "them"&nbsp;as the new Bible versions do...

Note that while different Greek manuscripts have different pronouns, none requires that the 24 elders themselves be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9), for note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing this they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

 

[mcfly1960]

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

Perhaps Proverbs 25:2 applies here (See Revelation 1:6 and 5:10)!&nbsp;

Note the following&nbsp;similarities between the 24 elders and "those that overcome" in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3:

Summary of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:4:

1. Upon 24 seats around the throne

2. Clothed in white raiment

3. With crowns of gold

"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Revelation 4:4

Comparison with the Church in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3:
1.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 (Letter to Laodicea)

2.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5 (Letter to Philadelphia)

3a.
"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11 (Letter to Philadelphia)

3b.
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10(Letter to Smyrna)

 

[postrib]

...Upon 24 seats around the throne...

"Round about the throne (thronos) were four and twenty seats (thronos): and upon the seats (thronos) I saw four and twenty elders sitting" (Revelation 4:4).

The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

...Clothed in white raiment...

Note that angels can also be described as wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be men.&nbsp;&nbsp;

...With crowns...

Note that even the locusts can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil himself wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), so angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) could wear crowns.&nbsp;&nbsp;

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Shane Roach


since we know certain believers are going to be marked by the seal of God and will be protected. (Rev 7:3, 9:4)

Ezekiel 9:4
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."


&nbsp;

 

[mcfly1960]

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be out of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

When singing the Marine's Hymn, note that civilians, soldiers, airmen, and sailors rarely change the words "we" to "they".

"From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli,

We fight our country's battles in the air, on land and sea.

First to fight for right and freedom, and to keep our honor clean;

We are proud to claim the title of United States Marine."


&nbsp;