The "Rapture" potentially VERY CLOSE!! ~~ A View of Scripture and Current Events.

the.Sheepdog · Jul 30, 2010

Justsurfing, dear you are so right it is astounding. I see these things clearly and not because I am a republican and just dislike democrats. I looked at Mr Obama with an open mind and after searching his beliefs and ideas I rejected him and voted for the other guy. The other guy could have been daffy duck and I would have voted for daffy duck.

I know Christians, some in california, who believe Mr Obama is a saint and just wonderful and kind and loving. They foam at the mouth if anyone dares to differ in opinion. I finally had to pull away from these sisters for this reason:

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.(1 Cor. 5:11).

In the verses surrounding this one Paul made it clear he wasn’t talking about unbelievers here. He said it wasn’t any of his business to judge those outside the Church. God will see to them. Neither did he say anything about these brothers losing their salvation because of their behavior. His point was their unconfessed sins have put them out of fellowship with God which has deprived them of His blessings, one of which is the support that comes from associating with other believers.

Their sin? I think it idolatry for treating Mr Obama like he was the Messiah almost. They don't see it of course and think I'm just being hateful. They dont see socialism when it looks them in the face. I don't know if Mr Obama is a fore runner to the antiChrist or not; but I know he is very bad for the US and the world.

Your posts are right on.

justsurfing · Jul 30, 2010

zeke37 said:
Satan is cast out of heaven at the mid point of the last hour

we are not yet in that hour, because that hour begins with a NWO..

the NWO is not in effect as of 2009 or today...
when it is, you won't be able to spend your current currency

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There you should see your error. The 666 beast rises at the beginning of the 7 year period to a position of political leadership. He is possessed by Satan spiritually -- he is not the fallen angel of Satan exclusively without human agency. Logically, Satan is indeed cast down from Heaven over the land of Revelation 12 at the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan was not individually manifestly present at the beginning of the 7 year period PERSONALLY to be that "leader" of the world. That is a man possessed by Satan spiritually.

Rapture at the abomination of desolation is “pre-trib”. First the 666 beast rises as a political leader. The 666 beast system is “set up” over the next 3-1/2 years. Then the beast commits the abomination of desolation to begin the tribulation period. The tribulation period lasts 3-1/2 years.

It is outside logic for you to state that Satan HIMSELF individually is the "person" who leads the world in the 7 year period of tribulation. He is only cast down at the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan is not PERSONALLY on earth at the beginning of the 7 year period. Satan is present spiritually INSIDE the person of anti-christ denoting spiritual possession.

The antichrist of the 7 year period is a political leader who rises at the beginning of the 7 year period as a political leader to "confirm the covenant with the many". (Soteoro taking oath of office to POTUS appears to me.) Then, at the 3-1/2 year mark, that political leader declares himself to be God and declares war on the saints demanding global genocide ~~ as the Koran itself demands.

the "666" beast is a political beast at first,
and then is a religious beast,

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Exactly. In the 7 year period, I agree, he rises first as a political beast. Again, you are clearly in error. Satan isn't cast down to earth until the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan is not personally individually without human agency the political leader who then becomes one world political/RELIGIOUS leader declaring himself to be God.

that even is described as looking like a lamb...

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In Revelation 13, that is describing the second beast. The second beast comes after the first beast. The first beast is the 666 beast Barry Soetoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama) during the 7 year period as stated.

The second beast is the beast who comes out of the abyss after the 1000 year reign of Christ. That beast is Satan personified come as a fallen angel without the soul of another human being ~~ without human agency.

You are confusing the antichrist of the 7 year period before the 1000 year reign of Christ (the first beast) with the antichrist who really is Satan himself as the fallen angel come after the 1000 year reign of Christ to gather the damned to Final Armageddon.

Your error, as I see it, may be in failure to recognize the 1000 year reign of Christ as a literal 1000 year period after the 7 year apocalyptic period. So you may be errantly trying to make the second beast "fit" in the first 7 year period.

not muslim....muslims will IMO be right in the middle of it all,
but the AC is not muslim and will not claim to be

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Barry Soteoro is the 666 beast. He is coming as Mahdi to institute Global Islam merging all world religions with Islam. The saints will be martyred by beheading.

many instead of (anti)Christ's will come...and a specific ONE.
the warning is for "us" not to look for him here or there
when others claim He is here

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That is unscriptural. We are not to look for Jesus Christ when people say that He is here or there.
Mark 13:21-22 (King James Version)

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

You're now equating Jesus Christ with the anti-christ. That is unscriptural. Jesus told us to watch and pray noting the rising of the 666 beast and seeing also when he commits the abomination of desolation.

Jesus repeatedly instructs His disciples to watch for the rising of the 666 beast, the fulfillment of prophecy, and not to be deceived by the antichrist and thus caught unaware of the day coming of the abomination of desolation:

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Satan himself is the antiChrist/false prophet...not Obama
pretending to be the returned Messiah specifically(and every other deity)

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That is incorrect. The antichrist of the 7 year period is a human being possessed by Satan. That antichrist comes in the 7 year period preceding the 1000 year reign of Christ. Satan himself comes after the 1000 year period when he is loosed from the abyss.

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

next time you see the Iranian president on TV,
look over his shoulder to the Imam with the big turban on
and you'll see the head of the Islamic faith

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The 666 beast anti-christ, a human being possessed by Satan, rises as the head of Islam and is the "Mahdi" they expect to come who the Bible says will come in the 7 year period claiming to be God. They will all worship the 666 beast as God. He is the head thereby of Islam.

Satan himself, in his very own supernatural angelic body,
comes here to earth for a short season
and SEDUCES most of the potential bride of Christ

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Satan comes personally at the end of the 1000 years as stated above not during the 7 year period preceding the 1000 years. The 666 beast antichrist of the 7 year period is a human being possessed fully by Satan spiritually. The antichrist does not deceive the elect. Satan does not deceive the elect. They deceive all but the elect - those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life. Satan is loosed after the 1000 years.

You are wrong, also, in believing that Satan comes in a supernatural angelic body after the 1000 years. The 666 beast antichrist of the 7 year apocalypse was cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan takes on HIS FLESH. But the 666 beast antichrist of the first 7 years is not in the body. Satan personally is himself in the body not "sharing that body" with the 666 beast antichrist. The 666 beast antichrist, Barry Soteoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama) remains burning alive in the lake of fire in his soul during the "little season" in which Satan comes out of the abyss.

we are in disagreement and I have no further need to even entertain Obama (or any man of flesh) as the end time son of Perdition...

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A son of perdition is just that ~~ a SON. Satan is the father. The 666 beast is a child of the devil and a human being in flesh, not the devil himself, in the 7 year period of the apocalypse.

that is Satan himself, who himself tempted Christ
and hurt Job, where the Bible states that he used to walk to and fro on the earth....

he's coming back friend...and not in Obama...

but rather in his own body...
a supernatural, miracle doing, beautifull angelic body

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Again, you make no distinction between the 7 year 666 beast antichrist and Satan coming after the 1000 years personally himself. Satan will not be in a "supernatural, beautiful angelic body". Satan himself will be in the body of Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barry Soteoro) the 666 beast antichrist as Soteoro continues burning in his soul in the lake of fire. Satan is released into the earth in the flesh of the 666 beast of the 7 year period --- not sharing that body with a human soul -- but it having been made "his body".

I really think Satan comes in pretending to be Christ

that pretence would NEED a fall guy....
someone that Satan(in disguise) could claim was the antiChrist,
and defeat him

Obama fits that catagory more IMO

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That is completely wrong. The 666 beast anti-christ is not a "fall guy" for Satan in the 7 year period.

However, you are right at a certain level that the 666 beast anti-christ is completely used by Satan, and then Satan steals his body in Satan's emergence from the abyss after the 1000 years.

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

the.Sheepdog said:
I see these things clearly and not because I am a republican and just dislike democrats. I looked at Mr Obama with an open mind and after searching his beliefs and ideas I rejected him and voted for the other guy. The other guy could have been daffy duck and I would have voted for daffy duck.

I know Christians, some in california, who believe Mr Obama is a saint and just wonderful and kind and loving. They foam at the mouth if anyone dares to differ in opinion. I finally had to pull away from these sisters for this reason:

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.(1 Cor. 5:11).

In the verses surrounding this one Paul made it clear he wasn’t talking about unbelievers here. He said it wasn’t any of his business to judge those outside the Church. God will see to them. Neither did he say anything about these brothers losing their salvation because of their behavior. His point was their unconfessed sins have put them out of fellowship with God which has deprived them of His blessings, one of which is the support that comes from associating with other believers.

Their sin? I think it idolatry for treating Mr Obama like he was the Messiah almost. They don't see it of course and think I'm just being hateful. They dont see socialism when it looks them in the face. I don't know if Mr Obama is a fore runner to the antiChrist or not; but I know he is very bad for the US and the world.

Your posts are right on.

That is a very good point. Those Christians who are not remaining loyal to Jesus Christ and are exalting a man practice idolatry. They should be made ashamed of their sin. (I do believe this same sin is practiced by Christians towards GWB, btw.) It is very unbiblical to exalt world leaders to idolize them rather than calling them to proper relationship of mutual service to God and one another.

As far as Soteoro (aka Obama) being the anti-christ, I am personally convinced and I believe by the Holy Spirit. Yet, as we watch and pray ~~ time is going to reveal this more and more clearly. However, those who practice idolatry are in danger. They will, as you say, not "lose their salvation". However, they are in danger of sin in the present in allegiance to the world system in socialism. They are in danger of deceived allegiance to the 666 beast thereby. The 666 beast will come exalting himself, man and government.

Every Christian should be appalled at the statement that "we are the ones we have been waiting for" and Obama is "the One" ~~ glorifying Obama (aka Soteoro) as deity, and man as deity, giving no honor nor glory to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. This is appalling idolatry, sensuous, worldly, and satanic in the exaltation of man.

Acts 12:21-23

21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
These Christians, if they do not repent of idolatry and become aware, may be as Lot's wife. When the fire sweeps the USA when the abomination of desolation occurs, rather than being protected by the Glory of God upon us they may die in the fire in the Judgment of God that is coming even as Lot's wife became a pillar of salt. This may occur if they continue to not give God the glory instead glorify a man to exalt him because of his oratory "skills" (That is satanic power of deception in man-worship, thus satan-worship).

Luke 17:31-33 (King James Version)

31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32Remember Lot's wife.
33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

People don't realize how SERIOUS the times are, how SERIOUS it is not to exalt world or political leaders, how SERIOUS it is not to be deceived by the anti-christ or socialism. Socialism is the worship of man rather than God inherently through government taking the place of God as man united as a group replaces God.

Socialism is SIN and incredible idolatry. I think you are scriptural to follow the conviction of the Spirit on that scripture. Because we must be prepared to separate from the world on that day. A snare to our souls could cause us to die in the fire that is coming to the USA. A snare could cause us to miss the "rapture" into the land of Revelation 12 (the area of protection by the Glory of God in Spirit coming upon us and protecting us and raising us up in Christ on that day to be set in the area of refuge).

So, let the warning of the Word of God stand on this thread to all Christians regarding idolatrous worship of man, socialism, governments, and the danger of the snare of the trap that is coming over all the world in the last days. May God have mercy and keep us from temptation and deliver us from evil.

As I say, so long as we are not idolators, we are watching and praying, and the day does not come upon us unaware, and we are fellowshipping and communing with the Spirit rather than the spirit of the world and this age, then we are seeking to avert the danger of the hour. We need to be made aware of the danger of "missing God" and not hearing the angel of Revelation 18.

Revelation 18

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

May God prepare our hearts in the love of Jesus as we reject this world and the love of this world. May we repent of socialism, man-worship, idolatry. May we be counted worthy to escape the snare that is coming. (People awake will know who the beast is as he goes to commit the abomination of desolation, I believe.)

Luke 21:33-36 (King James Version)

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Proverbs 9:9-11 (King James Version)

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
11For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
hi ....
there will be no rebuilt Jewish temple

That is something I'm "not sure of". You see, I think Christians are "missing it" being stuck in applying the pattern of the OT to prophecy projecting forward into NT times.

John 2:18-21 (King James Version)
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21But he spake of the temple of his body.

It may be that Christians think in too "concrete of terms" regarding the OT temple failing to see that the temple of the NT abomination of desolations may be the temple of human bodies. For example, when the world has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and the 666 beast declares himself to be God, declares war on the saints ~~ this is an abomination of desolation within the temples of their bodies. Moreover, the 666 beast in declaring worship of Jesus Christ illegal and punishable by death is, by decree, stopping sacrifice of praise to Jesus in the world system. He is "putting an end to sacrifice" in his decree thereby. By moving to commit genocide against the body of Christ -- the temple of the Holy Spirit in the bodies of believers -- he is moving also to stop the sacrifice of the temple of God on earth: Christians.

I just cannot say whether the temple in OT Israel needs to be "rebuilt". I think that may be the OT pattern, but the fulfillment of scripture in the NT may be spiritual. For example, the body of Christ is going to arise in the full measure of the full stature of Christ in entire sanctification in this hour. That is, spiritually, the rebuilding of the temple through sanctification. Also, if all the elect "come in" prior to the abomination of desolation to salvation -- and the "house of the Lord" is thereby complete -- then the temple has been rebuilt through the fullness of salvation reaching all of the elect. This is the end of time here of this generation that will live prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.

I think Christians are too often carnal and natural in their thinking -- trying to "redo" the OT in the NT and make the patterns and symbols and shadows of the OT "carry over" into the NT times, and not seeing that the spiritual replaces the natural. So, if a temple is rebuilt in Israel -- I will take note. But, if it is not rebuilt soon (and it can be done in a few months from all I have read), it may be true that the OT temple does not need to be rebuilt for the scripture to be fulfilled. The prophecy may be regarding the temple of people's bodies since the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

NightHawkeye said:
Justsurfing,...

I would just say that, despite his faults, Glenn Beck is not your enemy. He's fighting for liberty, God and family, the same cause I believe you are.

I appreciate, NH, that you receive from him some benefit. However, I am not believing he is not my enemy. I'm a 9/11 truther because I know better than to believe GWB and this government.... or that Building #7 fell in free fall speed into it's own footprint apart from controlled demolition. No plane hit that building. Moreover, fire doesn't cause a steel-framed building to reach the temps that were reached -- or those results.

Glenn Beck is seeking to demonize Alex Jones and those who are aware of the NWO -- realizing this is not some political right vs left paradigm. The Republican Party is permeated with New World Order facades. Glenn Beck is working for Cass Sunstein perhaps?? He's not working for me neither are we friends. That was his choice. His motives are quite suspect. He's either ignorant, or on the payroll. Nonetheless, as I say, he has some good shows. So, please don't let him cause you to miss larger truth as he plays the right/left paradigm... and poses as a conservative (as I see him). God bless!

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

vinsight4u said:
The two witnesses prophesy when the temple is rebuit - and they wear sackcloth.

They are coming back to finish their testimony.
Rev. 11 shows them as symbols linked back to Zechariah chapter 4 - where someone started something - and will finish it.

Hebrews 11 tells us as to Enoch had a testimony when he was translated.
so - Enoch has yet to finish his

Rev. 11 refers to two that finish their testimony.

The sackcloth could be figurative. The rebuilt temple could be the saints of Revelation 12 and the 144,000 arising in the full measure of the full stature of Christ in entire sanctification ~~ the temple being their bodies.

zeke37 · Jul 31, 2010

justsurfing said:
zeke37 said:

Zeke, this is so disengenuous it appears bias through personal or political affiliation often referred to as "drinking the koolaid". It is not advisable to believe everything one hears on the MSM or Soteoro (aka Obama) campaign HQ.

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well friend
you have proven nothing, just rehashing internet propaganda and probable lies
Satan is the end time leader to look out for, not Obama
Satan is the son of Perdition, not Obama

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]To those who argue, “That’s all nonsense, if you have a Hawaiian birth certificate you must have been born in Hawaii,” they need to account for the fact that Obama’s half-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng also has a Hawaiian short form certification of birth yet readily admits she was born in Indonesia in 1970. [/FONT][/FONT]The Obama Timeline[/FONT]
[/FONT]

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why? even if that was true, what would that have to do with Obama's nationality?

From "FactCheckOrg" which is in the tank for Soteoro (aka Obama):

When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom's dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s children:

British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC. FactCheck.org: Does Barack Obama have Kenyan citizenship?

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so your "proof" is factcheck.org?

As far as Sotoero having been "born in the USA" ~~ we have no definitive factual evidence to that effect.

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show that he was not, and you might have a leg to stand on

No long form birth certificate has been presented. Moreover, millions of dollars have been spent blocking Constitutional efforts to gain access to a long form birth certificate as a factor of factual proof of eligibility for office. Therefore, it's quite possible Soetoro was not born in Hawaii and was only a UK citizen at the time of his birth.

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a long form birth cert. is as easy to fake as anything else...
if it were so, then you would not have all these suppsoed "road blocks" etc,

a 15 year old can get a fake ID and drink in a lot of bars.
think on that please!

Moreover, it is likely true that all USA citizenship was surrendered and Soteoro (aka Obama) is today an Indonesian, rather than US, citizen. If there was nothing to hide, Soteoro would end speculation by releasing records -- but has instead spent millions fighting discovery:

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lol, seriously, lol.

hey I used to be a little bit of a conspiricy buffr...this fails in many areas.

In 1966 or 1967 Ann Dunham married Indonesian Muslim Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo (1936-1987), who she had met at the University of Hawaii. By birth, Soetoro was Malaysian, but he had lived in Indonesia most of his life. Soon after his marriage to Dunham, Soetoro returned, alone, to Indonesia. Obama and Dunham later moved to Indonesia to join Soetoro, probably in 1967. Soetoro then adopted Obama, whose name was changed to Barry Soetoro. Elementary school records in Indonesia list Obama’s name as Barry Soetoro, his religion as Islam, and his citizenship as Indonesian. While in Jakarta, Obama attended Franciscus Primary School (1967-1969) and Besuki State Elementary School Menteng 01 (1969-1971). [6,14,172,289,324,329,801]...

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pure speculation...you have no literal proof of this do you?

Obama was legally adopted by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro, which made Obama an Indonesian citizen, according to Indonesian law. Because Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship, Obama thus lost his U.S. citizenship when he became an Indonesian citizen, in or about 1967. At that point Obama also ceased to be a Kenyan citizen {Note that his father Obama Sr. transferred from UK citizenship to Kenyan citizenship in 1963 thus transferring Barry Soteoro's (aka BHO's) citizenship from UK to Kenyan}, according to both Indonesian and Kenyan law. Indonesian law would also have required Ann Dunham to renounce her U.S. citizenship for her marriage to Lolo Soetoro to have been considered legal. If, after Obama returned to Hawaii, he applied for and was granted American citizenship, he would be a naturalized citizen (like California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger) and not a natural born citizen, and would therefore be ineligible to serve as President of the U.S. It is possible that Obama did not even bother to become a naturalized citizen of the United States, and remains an Indonesian citizen even today. Appropriate federal records would exist if Obama made application for naturalization. If they exist, they have not been made public. [258,300,305,492]

Indonesia’s policy of not allowing dual citizenship must be respected by the United States in accordance with the Hague Convention of 1930. Further, Obama, as a child, was not required to personally renounce his U.S. citizenship – that would have been an automatic result of his adoption by Lolo Soetoro. [492]

According to Indonesian legal experts, it is extremely difficult for non-Indonesian citizens to enroll in public schools in that country. That was especially true during the 1960s, when Indonesia was a police state, and Indonesian immigration employees and the police performed weekly checks on public schools to confirm citizenship compliance. This further supports the assumption that Obama was adopted by Soetoro. (Some argue that he was not adopted by Soetoro.) Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro Ng, has stated that Obama was adopted by their father, Lolo Soetoro. [329,801]
Indonesia today still does not allow dual citizenship. Under Indonesia law, once Obama became a naturalized citizen by virtue of adoption, he could not lose that status without relinquishing his citizenship in writing, under oath. If he did that, the government of Indonesia would have those records. If he did not do so by age 21, Obama is to this day still an Indonesian citizen. His place of birth or the nationality of his mother is irrelevant; Indonesian law takes precedence under “The Master Nationality Rule of Article 4 of the Hague Convention on 1930.” The United States accepts dual nationality only if the other country does; Indonesia does not. [801]The Obama Timeline
(I'll come back to your statement that Obama is a Christian and has said so many times. I believe Charles Manson could claim to be a Christian, as well. Saying so doesn't make it so.)

Click to expand...

no offense to you as a believer friend...

I know your motivation is pure

but man, you're way off here...
and you, by naming Obama, a man of flesh, as the son op Perdition,
have judged him and that is not our job.

the Bible is clear (to me) that the son of Perdition is not a man of flesh, but Satan himself

again, no offense, but we're done on this subject...
perhaps there are others that will entertain your ideas...but not me...

(ps. I'm not even american)

zeke37 · Jul 31, 2010

justsurfing said:
There you should see your error. The 666 beast rises at the beginning of the 7 year period to a position of political leadership. He is possessed by Satan spiritually --

there is no "he" yet in the first half of the trib...
the "he" doesn't even arrive until the 1/2 way point

the first 1/2 is run by kings of the earth...political Babylon
Satan is still in heaven, and will be cast here at the mid point
marked by the silence in heaven

he is not the fallen angel of Satan exclusively without human agency.

no such possession will happen...
because Satan will be here in his own body...

Logically, Satan is indeed cast down from Heaven over the land of Revelation 12 at the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan was not individually manifestly present at the beginning of the 7 year period PERSONALLY to be that "leader" of the world. That is a man possessed by Satan spiritually.

I disagree...there is no single "man" in control for the first 1/2
it is 10 kings of the earth

after that, when Satan gets here, it will be 10 angelic kings

Rapture at the abomination of desolation is “pre-trib”. First the 666 beast rises as a political leader. The 666 beast system is “set up” over the next 3-1/2 years. Then the beast commits the abomination of desolation to begin the tribulation period. The tribulation period lasts 3-1/2 years.

your a pre tribber? that explains a lot! lol.

I do not see a SINGLE political leader ruling the world,
until Satan gets here in person!

It is outside logic for you to state that Satan HIMSELF individually is the "person" who leads the world in the 7 year period of tribulation. He is only cast down at the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan is not PERSONALLY on earth at the beginning of the 7 year period. Satan is present spiritually INSIDE the person of anti-christ denoting spiritual possession.

I never said that he was the leader for the whole time...
I specifically state that he is NOT...
and that he takes over at the mid point

kings of the earth have it at first

I do not think he possesses Obama in the first half...sorry!

The antichrist of the 7 year period is a political leader who rises at the beginning of the 7 year period as a political leader to "confirm the covenant with the many". (Soteoro taking oath of office to POTUS appears to me.) Then, at the 3-1/2 year mark, that political leader declares himself to be God and declares war on the saints demanding global genocide ~~ as the Koran itself demands.

there is no 7 year leader. half that time, sure...shortened ofcourse

Exactly. In the 7 year period, I agree, he rises first as a political beast.

there is no he...in the first 1/2

Again, you are clearly in error. Satan isn't cast down to earth until the midpoint of the apocalypse. Satan is not personally individually without human agency the political leader who then becomes one world political/RELIGIOUS leader declaring himself to be God.

again, I never said that Satan was....
again, kings of the earth are, not a man

10 political divisions, 10 kings of the earth for the first 1/2

In Revelation 13, that is describing the second beast. The second beast comes after the first beast. The first beast is the 666 beast Barry Soetoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama) during the 7 year period as stated.

nope, it's a world wide political faction with it's very own currency

The second beast is the beast who comes out of the abyss after the 1000 year reign of Christ. That beast is Satan personified come as a fallen angel without the soul of another human being ~~ without human agency.

nope again...the second beast is the first beast turned religous.

that world system (world wide beast) will turn from political into religous
when Satan arrives and fools the world into worshiping him as God.

the 2nd beast rises at the mid point (Satan, cast out of heaven and to the earth for his short season)

You are confusing the antichrist of the 7 year period before the 1000 year reign of Christ (the first beast) with the antichrist who really is Satan himself as the fallen angel come after the 1000 year reign of Christ to gather the damned to Final Armageddon.

we definitely see that differently...
you are the very first person to say that in the 5 years that I ahve been on forums

truly unique...but I disagree completely of course

the 2 beasts of Rev13 are both in the trib...first half and then second half.

Your error, as I see it, may be in failure to recognize the 1000 year reign of Christ as a literal 1000 year period after the 7 year apocalyptic period. So you may be errantly trying to make the second beast "fit" in the first 7 year period.

not at all.. I see the literal reign of Christ after the 7 year period...
but I still see the 2 beasts of Rev13 as both being in the trib

2 halfs..one political and one religous

Barry Soteoro is the 666 beast. He is coming as Mahdi to institute Global Islam merging all world religions with Islam. The saints will be martyred by beheading.

that is a fabrication, and your own speculation
the saints will NOT be beheaded...
the saints will be either seduced by Satan or faithful to Christ.

the mentionings of beheadings in Rev20 were for those of the past, martyred firstfruits
like specifically the beheaded John the Baptist,
who was obviously the whole reason why beheadings were even mentioned by John the disciple

That is unscriptural. We are not to look for Jesus Christ when people say that He is here or there.
Mark 13:21-22 (King James Version)

of course not...tbut hat is what I said...don't do it...
here is my quote

many instead of (anti)Christ's will come...and a specific ONE.
the warning is for "us" not to look for him here or there
when others claim He is here

we are warned not to...meaning that some one will come prtending to be, and will be a large enough threat (to be believed) that Christ made mention of it...

the false one MUST come first to deceive....
and that false one is a false Christ...THE false Christ

that is completely scriptural...

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

exactly

You're now equating Jesus Christ with the anti-christ. That is unscriptural. Jesus told us to watch and pray noting the rising of the 666 beast and seeing also when he commits the abomination of desolation.

how am I doing that?

I am trying to teach what Christ taught about the fact that the false Christ must come first,
and there is plently of scriptural proof showing Satan as that end time leader, not Obama or any other man of flesh
and that Satan comes in looking like Christ (hence all the warnings)

Jesus repeatedly instructs His disciples to watch for the rising of the 666 beast, the fulfillment of prophecy, and not to be deceived by the antichrist and thus caught unaware of the day coming of the abomination of desolation:

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

yep...watch indeed...but know what to watch for
Satan is a tricky fallen angel,
and he is cunning and a scripture lawyer
twisting It as he sees fit

That is incorrect. The antichrist of the 7 year period is a human being possessed by Satan.

nope

That antichrist comes in the 7 year period preceding the 1000 year reign of Christ. Satan himself comes after the 1000 year period when he is loosed from the abyss.

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

ummm......it is Satan that is bound and then released...
of course it is Satan in the latter half of the 7 years

that's why he was bound!

zeke37 · Jul 31, 2010

The 666 beast anti-christ, a human being possessed by Satan, rises as the head of Islam and is the "Mahdi" they expect to come who the Bible says will come in the 7 year period claiming to be God.

fiction, the bible teaches that Satan is cast out of heaven and to the earth for a short season....he is a fallen angel and has been here before himself, in his own fallen angel body

it is supernatural and will fool the world
any attempt to fit a man of flesh into this title, will not jive

consider...angels are called men in the bible, in Sodom, and Michael's name even means man of God

1403
Gabriy'el
gab-ree-ale'
from 'geber' (1397) and ''el' (410); man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:--Garbriel.

They will all worship the 666 beast as God. He is the head thereby of Islam.

Satan comes personally at the end of the 1000 years as stated above not during the 7 year period preceding the 1000 years. The 666 beast antichrist of the 7 year period is a human being possessed fully by Satan spiritually. The antichrist does not deceive the elect. Satan does not deceive the elect. They deceive all but the elect - those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life. Satan is loosed after the 1000 years.

Satan comes in at the mid point of the 7 years...
that is why there is silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour (of temptation)

1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

You are wrong, also, in believing that Satan comes in a supernatural angelic body after the 1000 years.

we will all be in supernatural angelic bodies then...no advantage for him

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Satan will be released in the same body that he was bound in

The 666 beast antichrist of the 7 year apocalypse was cast alive into the lake of fire.

there is a political beast, which was what was cast alive into the lake of fire...(
no soul can survive there)
and there is the false prophet ROLE, which is Satan's
that ROLE is likewise done away with

so, Satan HIMSELF is bound...1000 years

when he is released at the end of the Millennium,
he will not have those 2 powers to deceive the people with....

no political beast
and no false prophet(false Jesus) role

no tricks then...either your with God or against Him

Satan takes on HIS FLESH.

nope....Satan is cast out of heaven for 1/2 the hour of temtpation...no possession...
he will allow no one else this role

But the 666 beast antichrist of the first 7 years is not in the body. Satan personally is himself in the body not "sharing that body" with the 666 beast antichrist. The 666 beast antichrist, Barry Soteoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama) remains burning alive in the lake of fire in his soul during the "little season" in which Satan comes out of the abyss.

fiction again, already gave my reasoning

A son of perdition is just that ~~ a SON. Satan is the father. The 666 beast is a child of the devil and a human being in flesh, not the devil himself, in the 7 year period of the apocalypse.

Satan is the son of Perdition...Satan is a son of God
he comes here himself in that time

Ez28 and Rev17,20 call him or teach about just that, sentenced to perish

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Again, you make no distinction between the 7 year 666 beast antichrist and Satan coming after the 1000 years personally himself.

I make a great distinction...

I believe you are in error...

Satan himself comes in the latter 1/2 of the 7 years,
shortened for the elect's sake

Satan will not be in a "supernatural, beautiful angelic body".

that is what he is in right now! Ez28

Satan himself will be in the body of Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barry Soteoro) the 666 beast antichrist as Soteoro continues burning in his soul in the lake of fire. Satan is released into the earth in the flesh of the 666 beast of the 7 year period --- not sharing that body with a human soul -- but it having been made "his body".

fiction, pure fiction...

do you see your error in appointing a man of flesh to be the son of Perdition?
only Satan fills that role
Satan and his angels are cast from heaven and to the earth in Rev12,
and we know that is in the final hour because

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

these are all Satan, in his roles over time...Satan himself

he was the king of Tyrus and Assyria and Babylon, and the prince of the air today...(which ones did I miss?).
he'll be the 7th as antiChrist, and 8th at Millennium's end when he is released

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Satan again, who goes into perdition

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That is completely wrong. The 666 beast anti-christ is not a "fall guy" for Satan in the 7 year period.

it was just a thought...and Obama is not the 666 beast

I realize that there are some seeming similarities between the son of Perdition and Obama...
at least the "preceived" ones whether they exist or not

However, you are right at a certain level that the 666 beast anti-christ is completely used by Satan, and then Satan steals his body in Satan's emergence from the abyss after the 1000 years.

I never said that...
Satan has his own body...

you can read about him as he beguiled eve into having a child,
or walked to and fro in Job
or tempted Christ in the gospels

Now Christ said, get thee hence Satan...(get behind me)
and that was it...pooooof...
no more too and fro for him...

but on God's order,
he will be cast out of heaven with his fallen angels,
by Michael and the good angels

this marks the 1/2 hour

yeshuasavedme · Jul 31, 2010

interpreter said:
What rapture? Jesus never mentions one, either in the Gospels or the Revelation.

Jesus calls it the Escape. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
To escape to His heavenly temple and to stand before Him, the High Priest and Firstborn of earth, as His adopted sons, serving in His temple, is the destination of those who escape all these things so as to stand before Him, as priests.
the first thing the escapees do is fulfill the oracle of Leviticus 8, in the Torah, and celebrate their consecration as priests, sons of the Firstborn, for seven "days" -a week of years which is that week of tribulation on earth below.

Before one can discover the truths hidden in the Torah as oracles, one must learn that the Torah is Living Oracles for instruction of God's One Plan for all men, who will be brought to Christ by the Atonement.

In the Living Oracles/the Torah, the tribe of Aaron was elected as firstborn, and the High Priest served in the office of Christ, representing Christ from the time of the "anointing/Messiah office, oil". The sons of the firstborn were representing all the adopted sons of Christ the Messiah, serving in the temple which patterned the heavenly one copied by Moses.

In Lev 8, we see the seven day celebration the sons of the Firstborn [adopted in Christ] will go to, immediately after they are garmented in the clothing of priesthood [the New Man bodies made in the image of the Firstborn of earth, Jesus the Christ come in flesh].
The celebration of consecration lasts seven days, before, in the presence of, YHWH, in His temple. Jesus is YHWH, and He is the Son of Man before whom the adopted sons for the priesthood will stand.

yeshuasavedme · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
consider...angels are called men in the bible, in Sodom, and Michael's name even means man of God

1403
Gabriy'el
gab-ree-ale'
from 'geber' (1397) and ''el' (410); man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:--Garbriel.

Michael does not mean man of God. Micah and el combine for that name, and Micah does not mean man.

The English word man has been translated from many Hebrew words: Adam [429 times in the AV]; ish [10212 times in AV]; gebor [man of valor 37 times; enowsh [530 times] -and If I remember more I'll add them.

Gebor- strength/ power/might;
AV — army 56, man of valour 37, host 29, forces 14, valiant 13, strength 12, riches 11, wealth 10, power 9, substance 8, might 6, strong 5, misc 33

Though there are seven Watchers who are chiefs in Enoch [who are called the seven archangels, but they are the chiefs of the watchers], there are another four "presences" named in Enoch whose names describe their offices. They are the four beasts before the throne in Revelation, but in Enoch, they are named, and they share the same names as four chief/arch watchers/angels:

40:1
And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saws multitude beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits.
2And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things.
3And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
5 And the second voice I heard blessing the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits.
6 And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.
8After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: "Who are these four presences which I have seen and whose words I have heard and written down?"
9And he said to me:

"This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering:

and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael:

and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel:

and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel."
10And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

Gebor means power, and Gabriel is set over the "powers -the geborim".

The four beasts before the throne named, above, are not the same angels named as watcher chiefs.

20:1
And these are the names of the holy angels who watch.
2Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus.
3Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
5Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos.
6Saraqael, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
7Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
8Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

zeke37 said:
Satan is the son of Perdition...Satan is a son of God you can read about him as he beguiled eve into having a child,
[ /QUOTE]
There are many created satans, and they have a chief Satan. Satan and his messengers [unholy angels] of the chief satan are called evil spirits in heaven [demons are evil spirits on earth], in the Word and in the ancient writings, but they were never "sons of God". As you can see in Enoch: 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.

And you err in blasphemy against the Word of God with the claim that satan tempted Eve to have a child!!!! God made them male and female, as Genesis 5:2 states, using the sexual terms for propagating in the pasage, and made them one, in the same Adam spirit, so as to seek godly seed =sons of God [Malachi 2:15], of the Adam kind. But Adam fell, and all the seed died in Adam's loins and Eve no longer "mothered the living" seed, but "dead in spirit/nature before God, seed" who were not born as sons of God of the Adam kind and so lost the purpose of their being, which was to be a temple for God's Glory to indwell.

The particular one named in Enoch responsible for leading astray Eve in the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is named Gadreel, in Enoch.

Enoch 69: 6And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed the weapons of death to the sons of men the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men. 7And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell on the earth from that day and for evermore.

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yeshuasavedme · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
hi ....
there will be no rebuilt Jewish temple

God does not believe you, and neither do I, cause God already said there would be; two of them, in fact. The last one will be the temple built for the millennial reign, described by Ezekiel as shown to him by an angel of the LORD. The explicit dimensions are given to Ezekiel. In the Dead Sea Scrolls you can read the dimensions of the tribulation temple, and they are not the same. One is for that coming time of tribulation. One is for the Millennium.

zeke37 · Jul 31, 2010

yeshuasavedme said:
Michael does not mean man of God. Micah and el combine for that name, and Micah does not mean man.

The English word man has been translated from many Hebrew words: Adam [429 times in the AV]; ish [10212 times in AV]; gebor [man of valor 37 times; enowsh [530 times] -and If I remember more I'll add them.

Gebor- strength/ power/might;
AV — army 56, man of valour 37, host 29, forces 14, valiant 13, strength 12, riches 11, wealth 10, power 9, substance 8, might 6, strong 5, misc 33

Though there are seven Watchers who are chiefs in Enoch [who are called the seven archangels, but they are the chiefs of the watchers], there are another four "presences" named in Enoch whose names describe their offices. They are the four beasts before the throne in Revelation, but in Enoch, they are named, and they share the same names as four chief/arch watchers/angels:
Gebor means power, and Gabriel is set over the "powers -the geborim".

The four beasts before the throne named, above, are not the same angels named as watcher chiefs.

There are many created satans, and they have a chief Satan. Satan and his messengers [unholy angels] of the chief satan are called evil spirits in heaven [demons are evil spirits on earth], in the Word and in the ancient writings, but they were never "sons of God". As you can see in Enoch: 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.

And you err in blasphemy against the Word of God with the claim that satan tempted Eve to have a child!!!!

nope....i did not....but that is not open for all...obviously

God made them male and female, as Genesis 5:2 states, using the sexual terms for propagating in the pasage, and made them one, in the same Adam spirit, so as to seek godly seed =sons of God [Malachi 2:15], of the Adam kind. But Adam fell, and all the seed died in Adam's loins and Eve no longer "mothered the living" seed, but "dead in spirit/nature before God, seed" who were not born as sons of God of the Adam kind and so lost the purpose of their being, which was to be a temple for God's Glory to indwell.

The particular one named in Enoch responsible for leading astray Eve in the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is named Gadreel, in Enoch.

the serpent.....in the garden, described also in Ez28, and further defined in Rev20 ,
is Satan the devil...THE leader of their pack.

1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
justsurfing said:

well friend
you have proven nothing, just rehashing internet propaganda and probable lies

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I've factually proven my assertions. You've refused to evaluate facts. Instead you declare programming by the MSM (controlled media) to be the only source you receive, apparently. You refuse to believe free information. You seem to be a person who accepts propaganda sources (MSM & Obama Campaign HQ) as "truth" and refuses to examine source material. The source material is factual. The MSM is biased. Our perhaps you've not heard of the Journolist effort to direct people's opinions by mitigating truth?? You are believing propaganda, and programmed to discount valid sources in order to believe propaganda.

After JournoList Exposé, No One Better Ever Deny Liberal Media Bias Again

By Brent Bozell (Bio | Archive)
Thu, 07/22/2010 - 12:18 ET
Managing Editor's Note: NewsBusters Publisher Brent Bozell today reprimanded members of the press in light of the recently exposed e-mails from the now-defunct JournoList that show a blatant, deliberate campaign to smear conservatives. That statement is published below. Click here for more background on JournoList.
The revelation of these e-mails simply proves that we have been right all along. The liberal media have no interest in being fair or unbiased. In fact, they are deliberately violating any sense of journalistic ethics.
There is no excuse none- for the attitudes and lack of professionalism these so-called journalists displayed not only in these e-mails but in their reporting. Any member of the media that was privy to these Journolist emails, and remained silent, is just as much to blame as the folks that crafted these e-mails. Their silence indicts them.
We said in 2008 that the media were making excuses for Jeremiah Wright and now we have the proof. Just today we learned from the Daily Caller that these people went so far as to say that Rush Limbaugh deserves their hate. Sadly, I am not surprised, as this is what we have been exposing year after year about the media. And its exactly why Americans refuse to trust them.

Read more: After JournoList ExposÃ©, No One Better Ever Deny Liberal Media Bias Again | NewsBusters.org

The Smoking Gun For Media Bias

Posted 07/21/2010 06:52 PM ET

Journo-Gate: For decades, moderates and conservatives have been derided and ridiculed for complaining about the mainstream media's pervasive liberal bias. As it turns out, however, their worst fears were true.
If you don't know about Journolist, you should. It's a semi-secret listserv maintained by Washington Post columnist Ezra Klein. Don't bother to try to log on. If they want you, they'll ask you to take part. No outsiders need apply.
And who uses it? Almost exclusively liberal journalists and left-leaning movers and shakers. Sound innocuous? It isn't.
Journolist has become a forum for lefty journalists to talk about how to push their progressive agenda on America, protect President Obama and hurt his foes. It is a safe-space for the often-vile expression of hatred toward conservatives and their ideas.
It all came to light a few weeks ago when news broke that then-Washington Post writer David Weigel, hired to cover the conservative movement for the Post, had made disparaging comments about those he covered on Journolist.
Weigel's remarks were bad enough. But in the ensuing weeks, other comments emerged that made it clear his comments weren't atypical. Not only do the liberal journalists despise conservatives and their non-progressive vision for America, but they actively colluded one might say plotted to undercut them.
This isn't journalism. It's political activism.
What's disappointing is not just the lie that journalists put forth about being "objective." That's long since been proved false by survey after survey showing that members of the media are not only overwhelmingly Democratic in their political orientation but also far to the left of average Americans on virtually every major social and economic issue, from tax cuts to abortion.
No, the biggest disappointment is the nastiness they appear to harbor toward right-leaning journalist colleagues.
During the 2008 debate over the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, President Obama's personal pastor who repeatedly expressed his contempt for America in shockingly racist terms, some on Journolist suggested ways to squelch coverage. As Spencer Ackerman of the inaptly named Washington Independent suggested, "What is necessary is to raise the cost on the right of going after the left. ... Take one of them Fred Barnes, Karl Rove, who cares and call them racists."

When McCain picked Palin, liberal journalists coordinated the best line of attack By Jonathan Strong - The Daily Caller 3:09 AM 07/22/2010

In the hours after Sen. John McCain announced his choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his running mate in the last presidential race, members of an online forum called Journolist struggled to make sense of the pick. Many of them were liberal reporters, and in some cases their comments reflected a journalists instinct to figure out the meaning of a story.
But in many other exchanges, the Journolisters clearly had another, more partisan goal in mind: to formulate the most effective talking points in order to defeat Palin and McCain and help elect Barack Obama president. The tone was more campaign headquarters than newsroom.
The conversation began with a debate over how best to attack Sarah Palin. Honestly, this pick reeks of desperation, wrote Michael Cohen of the New America Foundation in the minutes after the news became public. How can anyone logically argue that Sarah Pallin [sic], a one-term governor of Alaska, is qualified to be President of the United States? Train wreck, thy name is Sarah Pallin.
Not a wise argument, responded Jonathan Stein, a reporter for Mother Jones. If McCain were asked about Palins inexperience, he could simply point to then candidate Barack Obamas similarly thin resume. Q: Sen. McCain, given Gov. Palins paltry experience, how is she qualified to be commander in chief?, Stein asked hypothetically. A: Well, she has much experience as the Democratic nominee.
What a joke, added Jeffrey Toobin of the New Yorker. I always thought that some part of McCain doesnt want to be president, and this choice proves my point. Welcome back, Admiral Stockdale.
Daniel Levy of the Century Foundation noted that Obamas non-official campaign would need to work hard to discredit Palin. This seems to me like an occasion when the non-official campaign has a big role to play in defining Palin, shaping the terms of the conversation and saying things that the official [Obama] campaign shouldnt say very hard-hitting stuff, including some of the things that people have been noting here scare people about having this woefully inexperienced, no foreign policy/national security/right-wing christia wing-nut a heartbeat away bang away at McCains age making this unusually significant . I think people should be replicating some of the not-so-pleasant viral email campaigns that were used against [Obama].
Ryan Donmoyer, a reporter for Bloomberg News who was covering the campaign, sent a quick thought that Palins choice not to have an abortion when she unexpectedly became pregnant at age 44 would likely boost her image because it was a heartwarming story.
Her decision to keep the Downs baby is going to be a hugely emotional story that appeals to a vast swath of America, I think, Donmoyer wrote.
Politico reporter Ben Adler, now an editor at Newsweek, replied, but doesnt leaving sad baby without its mother while she campaigns weaken that family values argument? Or will everyone be too afraid to make that point?
Blogger Matt Yglesias sent out a new post thread with the subject, The line on Palin.
John McCain picked someone to help him politically, Barack Obama picked someone to help him govern, Yglesias wrote.
Ed Kilgore, managing editor of the Democratic Strategist blog, argued that journalists and others trying to help the Obama campaign should focus on Palins beliefs. The criticism of her really, really needs to be ideological, not just about experience. If we concede shes a maverick, we will have done John McCain an enormous service. And lets dont concede the claim that [Hillary Clinton] supporters are likely to be very attracted to her, Kilgore said.
Amidst this debate over how most effectively to destroy Palins reputation, reporter Avi Zenilman, who was then writing about the campaign for Politico, chimed in to note that Palin had openly backed parts of Obamas energy plan. In an interview Wednesday, Zenilman said he sent the information as a means of promoting a story he had written for Politico.
Chris Hayes of the Nation wrote in with words of encouragement, and to ask for more talking points. Keep the ideas coming! Have to go on TV to talk about this in a few min and need all the help I can get, Hayes wrote.
Suzanne Nossel, chief of operations for Human Rights Watch, added a novel take: I think it is and can be spun as a profoundly sexist pick. Women should feel umbrage at the idea that their votes can be attracted just by putting a woman, any woman, on the ticket no matter her qualifications or views.
Mother Joness Stein loved the idea. Thats excellent! If enough people people on this list? write that the pick is sexist, youll have the networks debating it for days. And that negates the SINGLE thing Palin brings to the ticket, he wrote.
Another writer from Mother Jones, Nick Baumann, had this idea: Say it with me: Classic GOP Tokenism.
Kilgore wasnt sold: I STRONGLY think the immediate task is to challenge the maverick bull[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] about Palin, which everybody on the tube is echoing. Ill say it one more time: Palin is a hard-core conservative ideologue in every measurable way.
Zenilman of Politico, a purportedly nonpartisan journalist, weighed in with tactical advice: The experience attack is a stupid one. Its absolutely the wrong tack the tack that McCain took when he was losing, and that Hillary and Biden took all primaries. Zenilman said Wednesday he was offering typical offhand political analysis.
Joe Klein of Time stopped by with an update on the latest from his magazine: Were reporting that she actually supported the bridge to nowhere. First flub?
Klein, who displayed an independent streak in other circumstances (anybody who knows me knows I do my own thinking, he said in a Wednesday interview), seemed to exude more partisanship that day than usual.
As the morning wore on into the afternoon, some on Journolist came to believe the Palin pick had been shrewd. Palin was coming off as appealing and a maverick, they worried.
Okay, lets get deadly serious, folks. Grating voice or not, inexperienced or not, Sarah Palins just been introduced to the country as a brave, above-party, oil-company-bashing, pork-hating maverick outsider, Kilgore said, What we can do is to expose her ideology.
........
Times Joe Klein then linked to his own piece, parts of which he acknowledged came from strategy sessions on Journolist. Heres my attempt to incorporate the accumulated wisdom of this august list-serve community, he wrote. And indeed Kleins article contained arguments developed by his fellow Journolisters. Klein praised Palin personally, calling her fresh and delightful, but questioned her militant ideology. He noted Palin had endorsed parts of Obamas energy proposal.
That was all on the day of the announcement.

Read more: When McCain picked Palin, liberal journalists coordinated the best line of attack « » Print The Daily Caller Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

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justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
justsurfing said:

Satan is the end time leader to look out for, not Obama
Satan is the son of Perdition, not Obama

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Your theory that Satan himself is the antichrist of the 7 year period is far outside biblical thought and opinion. To fail to believe that a human being will rise as a world leader during the 7 year period is a colossal error.

why? even if that was true, what would that have to do with Obama's nationality?

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The logic of the truth of it is similarl to 2 + 2 equaling 4. I've stated the significance. I cannot help you further "see the light". That is up to you.

so your "proof" is factcheck.org?

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Denigrating a source rather than evaluating facts will cause you to follow those who tickle your ears rather than know truth. The facts are accurate in this case. Soteoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama) was BOTH a UK and US citizen if born on American soil but ONLY a UK citizen if born in Kenya. Proven facts proven by the source material of national laws relating to fatherhood, citizenship, and laws controlling citizenship relative place of birth and age of mother. Simple facts like 2 + 2 equals 4.

a long form birth cert. is as easy to fake as anything else...
if it were so, then you would not have all these suppsoed "road blocks" etc,

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An original state seal long form birth certificate gives full information as related to birth. It states the location of birth. If in the USA, it lists the hospital location and doctor performing the delivery. It is controlled information sealed by the State with a seal. If falsified, it would require complicity within the State offices. Furthermore, it would be easier to root out fraud. The information provided could be confirmed or disconfirmed with much greater ease. If Soteoro had nothing to hide -- he would have provided the long form birth certificate immediately upon request since the request is a legitimate Constitutional matter. If Sotoero was subject in humility to the Constitution and the will of the people, he would have immediately submitted an original long form birth certificate upon request. However, pride, arrogance, and deceit are the only "explanations" for refusal to subject to the Constitution and the people and shows his prideful, arrogant, and deceitful character ~~ thinking he's God and need not submit to either law, the people, or democratic principles and processes. Sotoero's character is clearly on display ~~ and anyone using logic would realize a man who has nothing to hide, and no pride controlling him, would not have spent millions hiding truth.

It is our "job" to know truth. But Satan will seduce many through the 666 beast and they will forsake the judgment of the righteous which is to know truth. We are to know the character and identity of the 666 beast as he rises. As we watch and pray, this will become more and more evident as the initial 3-1/2 years progress. However, false doctrine as well as media and 666 beast campaign HQ programming, may cause the day to spring upon many Christians unawares. This will be to their loss.

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justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
there is no "he" yet in the first half of the trib...
the "he" doesn't even arrive until the 1/2 way point

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What "arrives" at the midpoint of the apocalypse is the full blasphemy of the reprobate. They are thus completely hardened in their hearts, in a state of entire blasphemy against God, the "great falling away" has produced the fruit of the world system having become, spiritually on the inside through blasphemy of the Holy Spirit en masse, the body politic of the kingdom of Satan as Satan incarnate through full spiritual possession by Satan.

Luke 22:3 (King James Version)

3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Satan entering the world system by full possession by Satan in full blasphemy of the Spirit by the reprobate world system en masse as the Christians of Revelation 12 arise in the full measure of the full stature of Jesus Christ in entire sanctification in the Holy Spirit are the "correlating events" of Satan being cast to earth.

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction in the spirit realm.

Isaiah 59:19 (King James Version)

19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

the first 1/2 is run by kings of the earth...political Babylon
Satan is still in heaven, and will be cast here at the mid point
marked by the silence in heaven

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I do not agree that the time of Satan being cast to earth, at the midpoint of the apocalypse, is the time of silence in Heaven. Rather, there are things spoken in a loud voice. You're saying the opposite of the testimony of scripture to say there will be silence:

Revelation 12: 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

As stated above, Satan's "rule" during the last 3-1/2 years is through full spiritual possession of the 666 beast and the reprobate world system which has blasphemed the Holy Spirit completely in the great falling away manifested at the abomination of desolation. You are trying to make spiritual possession of the reprobate blasphemers equate to a "physical rule" by Satan. Rather, the first 666 beast antichrist is the same figure throughout the 7 year period. He rises to political power during the first 3-1/2 years of the 7 year apocalypse, commits the abomination of desolation at the midpoint of the apocalypse, then rules for the latter half of the 3-1/2 year period.

no such possession will happen...
because Satan will be here in his own body...

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They will be fully spiritually possessed by Satan entering them. They will blaspheme the Holy Spirit resulting in full internal possession by Satan equaling them individually and as a corporate body becoming "Satan incarnate" ~~ in spiritual possession by Satan.

Revelation 14:8-10 (King James Version)

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

the 2nd beast rises at the mid point (Satan, cast out of heaven and to the earth for his short season)

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The error here, as I see it, is in failure to see that the 2nd beast is Satan personified coming after the 1000 year reign. You are correct to see that Satan is the 2nd beast coming physically personally. However, the same 666 antichrist figure (the first beast) throughout the initial 7 year apocalyptic period "confirming the covenant with the many" then committing the abomination of desolation at the midpoint, and ruling for the latter 3-1/2 years.

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

we definitely see that differently...
you are the very first person to say that in the 5 years that I ahve been on forums

truly unique...but I disagree completely of course

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I'll come back, expand upon the OT/NT scripture to build a more full scriptural case. That will give you an opportunity to see you are right that Satan comes personally as the 2nd beast. However, he does not come as the second beast during the 7 year apocalyptic period. He comes from the abyss after the 1000 years have expired as the 2nd beast personally and individually in the body of the 666 beast as the 666 beast remains burning in the lake of fire in his soul. (Satan actually "takes on the body of the 666 beast" right at the marriage supper of the Lamb. It is "difficult" to see in scripture because it is very spiritual, it's about possession and control and prison and punishment for Satan during the 1000 years. It's just "difficult" to see on one's own, I think, to gain the initial revelation of the Word on it. I've never heard anyone say what the Spirit showed me. But I think that once I lay out the scripture, then it's easier for other Christians to see. God showed me because there is special enmity between myself and Satan, perhaps. That's what I like to think... because I so passionately desired to see the punishment of Satan and his demise.... that I think I 'pressed through" to the revelation. That's how I understand how I could see this, at least.) Anyway, as I "unfold" or "layout" the scriptures -- I will be interested to see what the Lord reveals to you.

You may be "ahead of the curve" in seeing Satan coming personally as the 2nd beast. But with all due respect, it is your timing that is incorrect. He comes as the second beast after the 1000 years when he is loosed from the abyss. This error in timing of fulfillment of the second beast is leading you, as I see it, to false conclusions related to the 7 year apocalypse.

Therefore, I think it most beneficial to come back with that scriptural case. It may "untie the knot" whereby we are "stuck" not seeing the same things in the same order right now.

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

yeshuasavedme said:
Jesus calls it the Escape. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
To escape to His heavenly temple and to stand before Him, the High Priest and Firstborn of earth, as His adopted sons, serving in His temple, is the destination of those who escape all these things so as to stand before Him, as priests.
the first thing the escapees do is fulfill the oracle of Leviticus 8, in the Torah, and celebrate their consecration as priests, sons of the Firstborn, for seven "days" -a week of years which is that week of tribulation on earth below.

Before one can discover the truths hidden in the Torah as oracles, one must learn that the Torah is Living Oracles for instruction of God's One Plan for all men, who will be brought to Christ by the Atonement.

In the Living Oracles/the Torah, the tribe of Aaron was elected as firstborn, and the High Priest served in the office of Christ, representing Christ from the time of the "anointing/Messiah office, oil". The sons of the firstborn were representing all the adopted sons of Christ the Messiah, serving in the temple which patterned the heavenly one copied by Moses.

In Lev 8, we see the seven day celebration the sons of the Firstborn [adopted in Christ] will go to, immediately after they are garmented in the clothing of priesthood [the New Man bodies made in the image of the Firstborn of earth, Jesus the Christ come in flesh].
The celebration of consecration lasts seven days, before, in the presence of, YHWH, in His temple. Jesus is YHWH, and He is the Son of Man before whom the adopted sons for the priesthood will stand.

You are using some very different language. You are not saying that we must forsake Jesus Christ, forsake salvation by grace through faith in Christ through faith alone, and return to the law and Levitical priesthood are you??

I see spiritual things related to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in what you say. However, I do not know if you are intending to point back to the law and exalt it as the means of salvation...???

That, of course, would be falling from grace. Could you please clarify your position?? It may be the use of different manners of speaking that cause me to question your "bottom-line".

Is Jesus the end of the law and the Spirit and Way to God by Spirit your conclusion ~~ or do you direct back to the law as the means of salvation??

justsurfing · Jul 31, 2010

Back from lunch. Will work on bringing out the scriptures line upon line, precept upon precept to prove that Satan is resurrected in the body of the 666 beast to BE the second beast ~~ Satan come literally "in the flesh" in the body of the 666 beast after the 1000 years when he is loosed from the abyss. (That helps to "line up" the Book of Revelation and the prophecy).

yeshuasavedme · Jul 31, 2010

justsurfing said:
You are using some very different language. You are not saying that we must forsake Jesus Christ, forsake salvation by grace through faith in Christ through faith alone, and return to the law and Levitical priesthood are you??

I see spiritual things related to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in what you say. However, I do not know if you are intending to point back to the law and exalt it as the means of salvation...???

That, of course, would be falling from grace. Could you please clarify your position?? It may be the use of different manners of speaking that cause me to question your "bottom-line".

Is Jesus the end of the law and the Spirit and Way to God by Spirit your conclusion ~~ or do you direct back to the law as the means of salvation??

"The end" of the Law means only "the Goal" of it, which is Christ.
To be brought to Christ is the oracle of the Law, and to be brought to Him by the Atonement of Him who is the High Priest, was rehearsed by the keepers of the Oracles of God [the namesake people of the New Man name], who were to rehearse them all in the signs and types until they were all fulfilled.

The Living Oracles are the Tutor/Schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ, the Goal of the Law, and they were committed only to the namesake people to rehearse as the signs that they are of Christ's Person and work, to redeem us.
Learn the teaching/doctrine of the Living Oracles and then you can be a teacher in His Church. Without understanding the Teaching of the Oracles, then one is not to be a teacher in Christ's Church is what the author of Hebrews says [probably Paul].

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles [foundational truths -the abc's]of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the living oracles to give unto us:

Romans 3:1 ...What advantage has the Jew, what profit is the circumcision [Moses]? -Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

yeshuasavedme · Jul 31, 2010

zeke37 said:
nope....i did not....but that is not open for all...obviously

the serpent.....in the garden, described also in Ez28, and further defined in Rev20 ,
is Satan the devil...THE leader of their pack.

So? tempted through Gadreel, says Enoch, and not to have a child, which is what I said is blasphemy against the Word. Adam is made male, from a sexual term for reproduction organ, and female, likewise a term for reproduction, by YHWH Elohym, from the beginning. They were made to multiply the Adam seed, and Cain is an Adam seed who sinned because he let the devil tempt him and took up the temptation and acted on it, becoming then, in spirit, "of that wicked one" and slew his brother.
There are a host of satans with one chief. They were never holy angels and have been created as evil spirits to tempt test and try -then accuse, mean and angels, before the throne where they have access to at appointed times. they catch angels and men in their traps so that they get the spoils as rejects, cast aways, for the Lake of Fire, forever.

and when one of the lesser satans does an act, the head gets the credit for the action. So it is when one of God's servants do His bidding, themselves, but He gets the credit, which is seen all through the Word.

And Zeke, Satan is the name of all the evil spirits created as tempters and testers of men and angels. They who are under the chief satan are called his angels, but they were never holy, and they never fell.
When Michael and his angels [Michael is the chief of the chiefs -head of the archangels, as Daniel says] fight against the devil and his angels, they are all cast down to earth -the whole host of the satans are cast down to earth, and the whole host of them are imprisoned for one thousand years in the pit, and are released to test and try those born in the Millennium, so that the rejects can be their food in the Lake of Fire forever, where they are the tormenters.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
there are a host of satans, and they are called evil spirits in heaven.

Enoch 65:5
And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: "Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping? 6And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the satans, and all their powers- the most secret ones- and all the power of those who practise sorcery, and the power of witchcraft, and the power of those who make molten images for the whole earth:

40:3And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
5And the second voice I heard blessing the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits.
6And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.

53:1 There mine eyes saw a deep valley with open mouths, and all who dwell on the earth and sea and islands shall bring to him gifts and presents and tokens of homage, but that deep valley shall not become full.
2And their hands commit lawless deeds,
And the sinners devour all whom they lawlessly oppress:
Yet the sinners shall be destroyed before the face of the Lord of Spirits,
And they shall be banished from off the face of His earth,
And they shall perish for ever and ever.
3For I saw all the angels of punishment abiding there and preparing all the instruments of Satan.
4And I asked the angel of peace who went with me: "For whom are they preparing these instruments?"
5And he said unto me: "They prepare these for the kings and the mighty of this earth, that they may thereby be destroyed.

54 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning fire. 2And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: "For whom are these chains being prepared?"
5And he said unto me: "These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels [satans]were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which/ho/these accused them before our God day and night.

The "Rapture" potentially VERY CLOSE!! ~~ A View of Scripture and Current Events.

You must be born again!

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