The Rapture - heretical teaching

[iamlamad]

Here's your quote,from which I replied

satan can't force anyone to follow him,they will do so of their own free will,why?Because they will think he is Christ

The tribulation of satan is all about deception,and just to help you out a little,satan's reign will only be for 5 months,God shortened the days.....

As far as me being hungry and thirsty,I have no doubt,my God will provide for me,and if not I will have no problem whatsoever,dying for Him!!!!.......

MYTH! You are mistaken about "Satan's reign." The reign of the Beast of Rev. 13 will be 42 months. How could you MISS such a verse? Did you ever wonder why:

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The 42 months of the Beast were given LAST after the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of testifying, the 1260 days of fleeing, and the 3 1/2 years of protection?

If you look at Rev, the 70th week ENDS with the 7th vial ("it is done!") but the Beast is not taken until Jesus returns, some time AFTER the 7th vial.
The 42 months of trampling, and the 1260 day count of fleeing will end with the 7th vial.

Please remember, the 42 months of authority WILL NOT BE SHORTENED! What will be shortened are the days of great tribulation DURING those 42 months. When God pours out the vials, it will STOP the hunting down of believers. The vials will SHORTEN those days of GT.

You sidestepped my questions:

Questions: WHY would a God of Love WANT His children to go through His wrath? Would YOU send your own children into a place where you KNEW they would be tortured, and finally beheaded? WOULD YOU? Why would you even entertain the thought that our loving Heavenly Father would desire such a thing for His kids?

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

MYTH! You are mistaken about "Satan's reign." The reign of the Beast of Rev. 13 will be 42 months. How could you MISS such a verse? Did you ever wonder why:

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The 42 months of the Beast were given LAST after the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of testifying, the 1260 days of fleeing, and the 3 1/2 years of protection?

Michael beat Satan up badly at the Cross (Rev.12:7), and he's still healing his wounds in hell, however does still work through the antichristian power and propaganda in Rev.13:1-18, ie, the "42 months" in Rev.11:2 that began at 70 A.D. of course in light of Lk.21:24.

If you look at Rev, the 70th week ENDS with the 7th vial ("it is done!") but the Beast is not taken until Jesus returns, some time AFTER the 7th vial.
The 42 months of trampling, and the 1260 day count of fleeing will end with the 7th vial.

Please remember, the 42 months of authority WILL NOT BE SHORTENED! What will be shortened are the days of great tribulation DURING those 42 months. When God pours out the vials, it will STOP the hunting down of believers. The vials will SHORTEN those days of GT.

You sidestepped my questions:

Questions: WHY would a God of Love WANT His children to go through His wrath? Would YOU send your own children into a place where you KNEW they would be tortured, and finally beheaded? WOULD YOU? Why would you even entertain the thought that our loving Heavenly Father would desire such a thing for His kids?

LAMAD

Old time adjuster Jack

 

[iamlamad]

Michael beat Satan up badly at the Cross (Rev.12:7), and he's still healing his wounds in hell, however does still work through the antichristian power and propaganda in Rev.13:1-18, ie, the "42 months" in Rev.11:2 that began at 70 A.D. of course in light of Lk.21:24.
Old time adjuster Jack

Jack, that is MYTH! You cannot even begin to prove such a statement. When Satan is finally locked up, the curse will be lifted over the earth. The lamb and the lion will lie down together; the child will play with a snake and not be harmed. These two things go together. IF Satan is locked up, then all his demons are locked up. That is what will happen when Satan is put into the bottomless pit. Life on earth will be WONDERFUL. If there will be death at all, it will be very unusual. It will last a literal 1000 years.

Jack, to even THINK that Satan is locked up now is silly. Just plain silly! There is NOT ONE HINT that life on earth changed when you imagine Satan was locked up! Did you FORGET what Paul wrote, that Satan goes around like a hungry lion seeking whom he may devour? Next, the timing WON'T WORK. It is satan that will give the 42 months of authority to the Beast, and possess the Beast AFTER you say he was locked up. Please note, he is cast down in chapter 12 where you say he was locked up (I am guessing this is the verse you use) yet John sees him later, and the Beast comes along with His authority after. Your theory simply won't work.

Next, THERE IS NO CROSS in Rev 12! John wrote about 60 years AFTER the cross. Now you are saying that chapter 12 was a history lesson for John?

Jack, your theories are SO FAR from the truth of scripture, I give you no hope at all to learn the truth.

LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

Listen to Jesus speaking to the disciples:

Matthew 16:19
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:18
18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Yet Satan was not bound? Let's listen to Jesus some more:

Luke 10:18
18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Jesus has already began binding Satan with the disciples as He sent out the 12, then the 70!

Jesus says to Peter in Luke 22:31, 32:
31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Finally Jesus says in John 12:31, 32:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Satan was bound through the gospel and the cross...no doubt about that!

Here's what some believers fail to understand, because Satan is active on earth doesn't mean he isn't bound. Every time a person becomes saved Satan is bound.

 

[shturt678s]

Jack, that is MYTH! You cannot even begin to prove such a statement. When Satan is finally locked up, the curse will be lifted over the earth. The lamb and the lion will lie down together; the child will play with a snake and not be harmed. These two things go together. IF Satan is locked up, then all his demons are locked up. That is what will happen when Satan is put into the bottomless pit. Life on earth will be WONDERFUL. If there will be death at all, it will be very unusual. It will last a literal 1000 years.

Jack, to even THINK that Satan is locked up now is silly. Just plain silly! There is NOT ONE HINT that life on earth changed when you imagine Satan was locked up! Did you FORGET what Paul wrote, that Satan goes around like a hungry lion seeking whom he may devour?

Satan was locked up at the Cross, ie, Michael worked him over good - I should send you a picture of Satan, ie, black eyes and broken ribs. At IPet.5:8, it's Satan's power and authority working through the antichristain power and propaganda.

Next, the timing WON'T WORK. It is satan that will give the 42 months of authority to the Beast, and possess the Beast AFTER you say he was locked up.

Satan has been working through the antichristian power and propaganda since 70 A.D till the "1" future Parousia. :o However he's about to be loosed any moment. :o

Please note, he is cast down in chapter 12 where you say he was locked up (I am guessing this is the verse you use) yet John sees him later, and the Beast comes along with His authority after. Your theory simply won't work.

Next, THERE IS NO CROSS in Rev 12! John wrote about 60 years AFTER the cross. Now you are saying that chapter 12 was a history lesson for John?

Jack, your theories are SO FAR from the truth of scripture, I give you no hope at all to learn the truth.

LAMAD

Old Jack

 

[coraline]

It's heretical imo, because the church did not entertain this fallacy of a physical rapture before the mid 1800's.
It's false teaching on passages like 1 Thess.4.
As Peter noted to the first disciples, admittedly, Paul was difficult for me to understand before considerable patience and study.
And many still today warp Paul's teachings to fit their "rapture" doctrine.

1Thess.4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

When Christ comes he comes in the aer—which is the Greek term used here which denotes the spiritual realm. Not the atmosphere and clouds. Satan was the prince of the spiritual realm before his fall. The aer was thought to be the dwelling place of evil spirits. The spiritual realm was seen as having authority over us here on earth. We wrestle not against flesh and bone, but powers and principalities.
When Christ came in the aer (spiritual realm) he was seen as defeating Satan on his home turf signifying his complete victory over Satan. Christians were meeting him in the spiritual realm. Christians met him not on earth, but in the aer (spiritual realm).

The dead did rise first in that they are transformed and readmitted back in to the presence of God—they went to be with him in heaven. And, now when we die we go straight to heaven to dwell in His presence instead of going to Sheol.

Paul writing in terminology familiar to his audience, explained Christ was bringing reconciliation with God back to us on earth. He came in the aer (spiritual realm) Christians met him there as an arriving king in this unseen dimension—which of course rules out a physical return of Christ, but let’s not get too complicated at the moment. We meet Christ in triumph in the aer (spiritual realm) not fly up into the sky. This is consistent with the balance of the Bible.
The Bible is not about science and the atmosphere, etc—it’s about spiritual matters and how Christ reconciles us back into God’s presence.

 

[iamlamad]

It's heretical imo, because the church did not entertain this fallacy of a physical rapture before the mid 1800's.
It's false teaching on passages like 1 Thess.4.
As Peter noted to the first disciples, admittedly, Paul was difficult for me to understand before considerable patience and study.
And many still today warp Paul's teachings to fit their "rapture" doctrine.

1Thess.4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

When Christ comes he comes in the aer—which is the Greek term used here which denotes the spiritual realm. Not the atmosphere and clouds. Satan was the prince of the spiritual realm before his fall. The aer was thought to be the dwelling place of evil spirits. The spiritual realm was seen as having authority over us here on earth. We wrestle not against flesh and bone, but powers and principalities.
When Christ came in the aer (spiritual realm) he was seen as defeating Satan on his home turf signifying his complete victory over Satan. Christians were meeting him in the spiritual realm. Christians met him not on earth, but in the aer (spiritual realm).

The dead did rise first in that they are transformed and readmitted back in to the presence of God—they went to be with him in heaven. And, now when we die we go straight to heaven to dwell in His presence instead of going to Sheol.

Paul writing in terminology familiar to his audience, explained Christ was bringing reconciliation with God back to us on earth. He came in the aer (spiritual realm) Christians met him there as an arriving king in this unseen dimension—which of course rules out a physical return of Christ, but let’s not get too complicated at the moment. We meet Christ in triumph in the aer (spiritual realm) not fly up into the sky. This is consistent with the balance of the Bible.
The Bible is not about science and the atmosphere, etc—it’s about spiritual matters and how Christ reconciles us back into God’s presence.

Coraline, what you write is MYTH! There are several books from the first several centuries of the church, showing that early believers DID believe in Paul's pretrib rapture. This point is undeniable. Next, OF COURSE people believe in it before the 1800's because PAUL TAUGHT IT.

HOW ON EARTH could one WARP such plain teaching: that we will be CAUGHT UP? Well, ONE WAY is to simply deny Paul's plain teaching - as you do.

Sorry, but the plain and simple use of words proves you wrong. Even a 5th grader would say the AIR WE BREATHE, and the very air where the clouds hang suspended. THIS is the air Paul was writing of. What is UP from the grave? One foot up and you are IN THE AIR. If you go up higher, chances are good you would disappear in a CLOUD, for clouds are found IN THE AIR.

Next, we have to understand this verse and keep in mind John 14. WHERE will we go after we meet Jesus in the AIR? Of course, back to heaven where He has prepared mansions for us. See how easy this is? Just let the word SPEAK, and don't try to change it to fit a theory.

There is a PURPOSE for the resurrection/rapture. First, God will HIDE US until the indignation (70th week) is passed. We will be taken to HEAVEN. SEcond, we cannot get to heaven with our natural body, so it will be CHANGED into a resurrection body.....did you read 1 Cor. 15? So Paul was writing of a PHYSICAL catching up, into the air - and on into heaven.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Satan was locked up at the Cross, ie, Michael worked him over good - I should send you a picture of Satan, ie, black eyes and broken ribs. At IPet.5:8, it's Satan's power and authority working through the antichristain power and propaganda.



Satan has been working through the antichristian power and propaganda since 70 A.D till the "1" future Parousia. :o However he's about to be loosed any moment. :o
Old Jack

Jack, FIND THAT In the gospels! FIND ANYTHING about Michael at the cross. I want to see it. Of course you can't - because it is not there. This theory is FAR outside the "pale of Orthodoxy." What you will find is that JESUS defeated Satan at the cross.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Listen to Jesus speaking to the disciples:

Matthew 16:19
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:18
18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Yet Satan was not bound? Let's listen to Jesus some more:

Luke 10:18
18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Jesus has already began binding Satan with the disciples as He sent out the 12, then the 70!

Jesus says to Peter in Luke 22:31, 32:
31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Finally Jesus says in John 12:31, 32:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Satan was bound through the gospel and the cross...no doubt about that!

Here's what some believers fail to understand, because Satan is active on earth doesn't mean he isn't bound. Every time a person becomes saved Satan is bound.

Yet Paul wrote, many years AFTER the cross, that Satan prowls around SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR.

Lamad

 

[ebedmelech]

Yet Paul wrote, many years AFTER the cross, that Satan prowls around SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR.

Lamad

He sure did...because He too, understood what Jesus meant when he said in John 12:31, 32:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

It may be over your head...but not Paul...he understood that Jesus has first place in EVERYTHING...Colossians 1:16:
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Now...Jesus is running the show... and Satan is bound! It doesn't matter that you don't realize it.

As is said today "It is, what it is"...and Jesus is Lord!

 

[coraline]

Coraline, what you write is MYTH! There are several books from the first several centuries of the church, showing that early believers DID believe in Paul's pretrib rapture. This point is undeniable. Next, OF COURSE people believe in it before the 1800's because PAUL TAUGHT IT.

HOW ON EARTH could one WARP such plain teaching: that we will be CAUGHT UP? Well, ONE WAY is to simply deny Paul's plain teaching - as you do.

Sorry, but the plain and simple use of words proves you wrong. Even a 5th grader would say the AIR WE BREATHE, and the very air where the clouds hang suspended. THIS is the air Paul was writing of. What is UP from the grave? One foot up and you are IN THE AIR. If you go up higher, chances are good you would disappear in a CLOUD, for clouds are found IN THE AIR.

Next, we have to understand this verse and keep in mind John 14. WHERE will we go after we meet Jesus in the AIR? Of course, back to heaven where He has prepared mansions for us. See how easy this is? Just let the word SPEAK, and don't try to change it to fit a theory.

There is a PURPOSE for the resurrection/rapture. First, God will HIDE US until the indignation (70th week) is passed. We will be taken to HEAVEN. SEcond, we cannot get to heaven with our natural body, so it will be CHANGED into a resurrection body.....did you read 1 Cor. 15? So Paul was writing of a PHYSICAL catching up, into the air - and on into heaven.

LAMAD

I see you want to argue your dispensational view with me.

You have got to be kidding.

I knew that was ridiculous the first time I heard of it.

I think it makes Christians look like idiots to the world.

Sorry. I hope you find the truth someday!

BTW- Are you aware that this "rapture of the church" idea is not a historical teaching of the church but something that was started around 1830 by the Plymouth Brethren? It was popularized in America by the Scofield Reference Bible and by elaborate End Time event charts published by Clarence Larkin. During the twentieth century, the "physical rapture" of the Church became a dominant eschatological view.

 

[n2thelight]

MYTH! You are mistaken about "Satan's reign." The reign of the Beast of Rev. 13 will be 42 months. How could you MISS such a verse? Did you ever wonder why:

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The 42 months of the Beast were given LAST after the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of testifying, the 1260 days of fleeing, and the 3 1/2 years of protection?

If you look at Rev, the 70th week ENDS with the 7th vial ("it is done!") but the Beast is not taken until Jesus returns, some time AFTER the 7th vial.
The 42 months of trampling, and the 1260 day count of fleeing will end with the 7th vial.

Please remember, the 42 months of authority WILL NOT BE SHORTENED! What will be shortened are the days of great tribulation DURING those 42 months. When God pours out the vials, it will STOP the hunting down of believers. The vials will SHORTEN those days of GT.

You sidestepped my questions:

Questions: WHY would a God of Love WANT His children to go through His wrath? Would YOU send your own children into a place where you KNEW they would be tortured, and finally beheaded? WOULD YOU? Why would you even entertain the thought that our loving Heavenly Father would desire such a thing for His kids?

LAMAD

*Side stepped,I think not,you just didn't like the answer,please refer to post # 358

* The torture part of your question

Once again,I don't do myths,only scripture,with that said,let's see what saith those scriptures


Mark 13:19 "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

First of all lets take a closer look at the word "affliction" as it is used here, it is "thlipsis" in the Greek, #2347; "Thlipsis, from 2346, pressure (lit. or fig.): affliction, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble." In # 2346 we read; "thlibo, thlee'-bo; to crowd, afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble."

It is the same word in verse twenty that is used for tribulation. It means; "to be pressed and crowded to the point of being persecuted." Jesus is telling us that this tribulation of this false Christ Satan is going to be the greatest persecution of Christians that has ever been. If some so-called scholar tries to tell you that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 took place by some Roman general in 70 A.D., Remember that the subject and the object of this chapter is "the seven events that take place at the end of this earth age." Those are the signs that consummate the end of this age of the flesh. Beware of false teachings, and listen to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

What this is telling us then is that there are going to be two tribulations coming. The first is by Satan, who bring his tribulation on the believers of Christ, and the second is by Jesus Himself that will bring an end to all evil rudiments of this earth age of the flesh.


II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

"Elements" as used here is # 4747 in Strong's Greek dictionary. "Stoicheion, stoy-khi'-on; of the base of # 4748, something orderly in arrangement (fundamental, initial) constituent (literal), principle, rudiment." Then in #4748 we read; "Stoicheo, stoy-kheh'-o; (to range in regular line), to march in military rank, to conform to virtue and piety."

By this we know that the "elements" are not physical but spiritual. It deals with the order of things that are here on this earth, the very principles and rudiments of the thoughts of mankind at the time of Christ coming. We know that those rudiments are what Satan has established because at the time of Jesus Christ return, Satan is the ruler of this entire earth, and mankind of the earth are worshipping him as God in ignorance. Those rudiments are of the flesh and give pleasure to the flesh body, and glorify Satan and not God.

So Peter is telling us here that on the day of the Lord, or the day that Christ returns, all those things of this earth that glorify Satan, the Antichrist, and even your flesh body will end. However, we know from Paul that when the flesh is done away with, it is changed into another dimension, or form, which is called the spiritual body, or your soul. God is going to purify the earth from the pollution and filth of this earth age, both physical of the flesh and spiritually.

Now to my point


Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

What was the time shortened to?We shall continue in Rev for our answer...

Revelation 9:5 "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should betormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months. The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works. The result of that torment is exactly as the torment of the scorpion that "striketh a man". So lets try to understand more of both the locust, and the scorpion.
This is that locust army of Satan that will deliver up the sons and daughters to prophecy against the Antichrist, as spoken of in Joel 2, and also by Peter in Acts 2. What these sons and daughters say will only be those words that the Holy Spirit speaks through them.

Joel said this locust army would march forward, and not miss a stride. Remember, it's not "locust" but men, and the battle which this army enters is a spiritual battle, where the victory is in their deception. Their battle cry is with words like love, joy, peace, brotherhood, equality, and a mixture of words promising peace and prosperity. In the Antichrist rule [the five months] everyone will be satisfied, as long as they continue to yield to this Antichrist.

The time "locust" has four stages, as stated in Joel 1. The part of the locust that exists in the swarming stage is five months. That five months staging period is always between May and September; so God is even giving us the season, or time frame when Antichrist will appear. And by that season, we have an hint of when the seventh trumpet will sound, and Jesus Christ will appear. However that instant is known only to the Father.

revelation9

 

[n2thelight]

@ iamlamad

Question,if God shortened those days for the Elect sake,how could there have been a rapture,if His most important people are still here?Or do you need a lesson on who the Elect are?

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 366:

When Christ comes he comes in the aer—which is the Greek term used here which denotes the spiritual realm. Not the atmosphere and clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:17's "air" will be the literal air, like the air in 1 Corinthians 9:26, 1 Corinthians 14:9, and Acts 22:23 is the literal air. But the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will be up in the sky (as high as the clouds), like the air in, for example, Revelation 9:2 and Revelation 16:17 will be the literal air up in the sky.

The church won't (as is sometimes claimed) be changed into spirit at Jesus' 2nd coming, but resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into (Luke 24:39, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25). Also, Paul doesn't refer to the "air" in 1 Corinthians 15, and nothing there (or anywhere else) requires that he was using "air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as a synonym for spirit.

The purpose of the rapture (the catching up) isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies, but to "catch up" both their changed bodies and the just-resurrected bodies of dead believers into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The changed, living believers will be raptured (caught up) "together with them" (1 Thessalonians 4:17), that is, together with the just-resurrected, dead believers (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17).

coraline said in post 366:

Not the atmosphere and clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30, and Revelation 1:7 refer to clouds which will be literal, like Luke 9:34's literal cloud (up on a mountain: Luke 9:28). But the clouds of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30, and Revelation 1:7 will be up in the sky (the first heaven), the literal air, like Acts 1:9's literal cloud was up in the sky, and like the literal cloud in which the two witnesses will ascend bodily up to heaven (Revelation 11:12).

That is, Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

At his 2nd coming, Jesus will be literally seen in literal clouds (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), just as lightning is seen in literal clouds (Matthew 24:27). But the literal clouds in Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 could cover the raptured church in the sky from the view of the world while the church is being judged by the just-returned Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and then the obedient part of the church gets married to the just-returned Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the sky (the first heaven) (Revelation 19:14).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 367:

Next, we have to understand this verse and keep in mind John 14. WHERE will we go after we meet Jesus in the AIR? Of course, back to heaven where He has prepared mansions for us.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Note that there's no "pre-trib" in John 14:3, just as there's no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there's only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-trib view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he's not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the bodily resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

 

[Bible2]

n2thelight said in post 372:

So Peter is telling us here that on the day of the Lord, or the day that Christ returns, all those things of this earth that glorify Satan, the Antichrist, and even your flesh body will end.

Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

n2thelight said in post 372:

Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

n2thelight said in post 372:

What was the time shortened to? We shall continue in Rev for our answer...

Revelation 9:5 "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should betormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months.

Regarding Revelation 9:5,10, the 5 months there are the entire length of only the time of the 5th trumpet's weird locust-like beings stinging mankind (Revelation 9:1-11). This time will end sometime before the 6th trumpet's events of Revelation 9:13-21, which could occur before the 1,335 days in Daniel 12:11-12 begin at the mid-tribulation setting up of the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This setting up of the abomination of desolation could occur at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

n2thelight said in post 372:

The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works.

Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) which won't start until sometime after the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and the land, can mean that it's referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am", H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", that is, distributed into ranks (Hebrew "chatsats", H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are so small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets, H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts, and other plant-destroying insects, which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

 

[n2thelight]

B2

Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

I beg to differ on that,as only satan can be the antichrist,ie the man of sin,son of perdition.....

satan comes here live and in color,after he gets kicked out of heaven,he will not posses any man.......

 

[iamlamad]

He sure did...because He too, understood what Jesus meant when he said in John 12:31, 32:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

It may be over your head...but not Paul...he understood that Jesus has first place in EVERYTHING...Colossians 1:16:
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Now...Jesus is running the show... and Satan is bound! It doesn't matter that you don't realize it.

As is said today "It is, what it is"...and Jesus is Lord!

Satan is STILL FREE to deceive the masses - and that is exactly what he does best. He is still free to roam around seeking whom he may devour. He still has access to the heavenlies - the high places Paul wrote of.

But the day will come, IN THE FUTURE, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that Michael will go to war with him, and he will then be cast down to the earth, NO LONGER free to roam the high places or the heavenlies. He will be VERY angry, for he will know he has but 3 1/2 more years, before he will be locked into the bottomless pit, and the curse will be lifted off planet earth.

This is TRUTH, Ebedmelech, and may be over your head. OF COURSE Paul knew, when he wrote, that Satan had access to the heavenlies, where he could continually accuse us before God.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I beg to differ on that,as only satan can be the antichrist,ie the man of sin,son of perdition.....

satan comes here live and in color,after he gets kicked out of heaven,he will not posses any man.......

Well, can you READ?

Rev 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

1000 years later:

Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you imagine there are TWO devils - two Satans? No, there is only ONE Satan. He CANNOT be in two places at the same time. ONLY GOD is omnipresent. So at ONE TIME, The beast is cast into the lake of fire, and then another time, a thousand years later, Satan is cast in, to be WITH the Beast who is already there.

Perhaps you imagine that it is a two-way street into the lake of fire? No, it is ONE WAY ONLY! There is NO WAY OUT of the lake of fire. The Beast did not find a way out, because John tells us he was there in the fire when Satan was cast in.

So your theory is not only silly, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

LAMAD

 

[Biblewriter]

BTW- Are you aware that this "rapture of the church" idea is not a historical teaching of the church but something that was started around 1830 by the Plymouth Brethren? It was popularized in America by the Scofield Reference Bible and by elaborate End Time event charts published by Clarence Larkin. During the twentieth century, the "physical rapture" of the Church became a dominant eschatological view.

Actually, that is completely wrong. The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day was the last twelve chapters of the very famous work called "against Heresies," by Irenaeus, which is thought to have been written between 186and 188 A.D.

In this work, Irenaeus described the wickedness of the world in generak terms, and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

And later on, at an unknown time, another ancient person whose name in not known, but is called Pseude-Ephraem, wrote "See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.- From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20. As found online at On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, andthe End of the World .)

Although the exact time of this writing is not known, from events mentioned as pending in the sermon, scholars have estimated its date at times ranging from 373 to 627. But regardless of when it was written, it is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. That is a thousand years before the birth of John Nelson Darby, the main leader of the Plymouth brethren.

Numerous other writers also made mention of the concept long before Darby first began to write about it.