The Rapture could never be legitimate grounds to refute God's Judgment of the earth.

[God bless Joshua]

Stonehaven, are you saying you refuse to be taken alive to meet Christ in the air ? thats your rights anyway.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Stonehaven]

Stonehaven, are you saying you refuse to be taken alive to meet Christ in the air ? thats your rights anyway.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

By definition, the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be "taken alive to meet himself in the air".

Since God and his Creation are not the same, but they occupy different positions in the ontological order - Don't make the mistake to presume that we are somehow "equal" or the same, since we are not the same at all.

That is my answer - Take it, or leave it.

 

[Stonehaven]

Of course!!!

1. There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:1
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


2. The resurrection happens on the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

And judgment happens on the same day too. You want proof of that too?

Nothing that you have said here could ever serve to refute that the First Resurrection would still take place Before the last day, which is according to Revelation 20.

Those Raptured Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4 could well be the same First Resurrection which is also mentioned in Revelation 20.

By definition, the "First" Resurrection itself must take place prior to the Last Judgement, when both the righteous and wicked will be Resurrected.

Since the First Resurrection will happen Before the Millennial kingdom, but the Last Judgement will happen After this Millennium.

Therefore, not all resurrections will take place on the last day of Judgement.

 

[Davy]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth (Isaiah 24:5-6) by making reference to the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

So, here is the excerpt from Isaiah 24:5-6, which has prophesied the Coming Judgment:

5 The earth is polluted by its people. They haven’t obeyed the laws of the Lord. They haven’t done what he told them to do. THEY'VE BROKEN THE COVENANT THAT WILL LAST FOREVER.

6 So the Lord will send a curse on the earth. Its people will pay for what they’ve done. THEY WILL BE BURNED UP. VERY FEW OF THEM WILL BE LEFT.

However, there are some Christians who would try to reinterpret the context of Isaiah 24:5-6 by using 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to suggest 2 different outcome:-

(1) Christians alive on the earth will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement, so that the only people who would perish are the Non-believers, but no Christian would ever be destroyed by God's Judgement of the earth.

(2) Those who are still left alive after the Judgement will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven, and those Christians will stay in heaven for all eternity.

So, here is the excerpt from 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the basis of this argument:

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.

However, such arguments based on 1 Thessalonians 4 are fundamentally flawed in regards to points (1) and (2).

Since both arguments have presupposed that "All the Christians will be taken up to heaven" SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT AT ALL ON THE EARTH.

This implies that the Future new heaven and earth - Or the New Jerusalem - WILL NOT BE RULED NOR INHABITED BY THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. Revelation 21

Since there would be no Future generations of Christians left at all once their forebears are "Taken up to meet Jesus in heaven" and there is no prospect of those people coming back to earth according to Christian theology = Hebrews 9:27.

Therefore, such an argument is fundamentally flawed since it presupposes the OUTRIGHT GENOCIDE AND EXTINCTION OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Such an argument is flawed since it is not compatible with the BIOLOGICAL SURVIVAL OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Discuss.

It's easy to misunderstand that idea of being "caught up" when one hasn't understood about the resurrection and with what body it comes like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

The type body of Christ's future Kingdom is a "spiritual body" type, not a flesh and blood body:

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

The "image of the heavenly" is an angelic-like body, a spiritual body. This is why Jesus said those of the resurrection will be like the angels of God in heaven.

That is the same kind of body those still alive on earth will be 'changed' to on the "last trump", "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15:52). We shall not all sleep, but WE ALL shall be CHANGED, like Paul said. Changed to what? Changed to the "spiritual body" he taught there.

So apply that understanding to the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17.

The "spiritual body" doesn't have the limitations of space and time that today's flesh body has. It's a body of a different dimension than our material dimension, yet it can live and exist within... this earthly dimension. The proof of this exists with the various angelic visitation examples written of in God's Word, like the two angels who came to Lot's house in Genesis 19.

The final destination of Jesus with His elect when He gathers them is to Jerusalem, on earth, as written in Zechariah 14.

 

[God bless Joshua]

By definition, the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be "taken alive to meet himself in the air".

What has been revealed from your heart, you have denied God's promise, its your rights after all.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Stonehaven]

What has been revealed from your heart, you have denied God's promise, its your rights after all.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Wrong. God has never 'promised' anything to that effect.

His only promise being that "Jerusalem would always be considered the Eternal worldwide capital of Christianity", but he Never said that "Only the Jews could be Christian".

Since Jewish identity is no requirement for anybody to be considered a Christian. Galatians 3:28

Also, it is ridiculous to suggest that God should allegedly 'deny' what he had already promised.

God's only promise is regarding the geographical centre of Christianity, but this has got nothing to do with the ethnicity of those who follow Christ.

 

[LastSeven]

Nothing that you have said here could ever serve to refute that the First Resurrection would still take place Before the last day, which is according to Revelation 20.

I'm not trying to refute that.

Those Raptured Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4 could well be the same First Resurrection which is also mentioned in Revelation 20.

By definition, the "First" Resurrection itself must take place prior to the Last Judgement, when both the righteous and wicked will be Resurrected.

Since the First Resurrection will happen Before the Millennial kingdom, but the Last Judgement will happen After this Millennium.

Therefore, not all resurrections will take place on the last day of Judgement.

But you agree that there is a resurrection on the last day? Who do you think is resurrected on that day?

 

[Tayla]

Since both arguments have presupposed that "All the Christians will be taken up to heaven" SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT AT ALL ON THE EARTH.

And why would anyone become Christians after this with no Christians around to share the gospel with them?

 

[seventysevens]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth (Isaiah 24:5-6) by making reference to the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.


Discuss.

That is a flawed statement to begin with
God will most definitely judge the earth , the rapture/harpazo Is Jesus way of protecting those who love Him and have followed Jesus commands , He tells us that he will come for His Bride and those who are ready -waiting and expecting Him to come will be raptured ,
but there are those who reject Christ and those who don't believe Christ will return and they will miss the harpazo and must go through the GT judgment period - quite simple if you know the bus is coming and you are not ready for it you will miss it , ya gotta be ready and expecting it beforehand

 

[Stonehaven]

but there are those who reject Christ and those who don't believe Christ will return and they will miss the harpazo and must go through the GT judgment period

But how should one discern between those who reject Christ and those who don't believe that He will return?

Since one cannot be privy to such ulterior motive, how could such motives be discerned by way of the body language?

 

[Stonehaven]

The final destination of Jesus with His elect when He gathers them is to Jerusalem, on earth, as written in Zechariah 14.

But this doesn't change the fact that whatever happens here in the interim is still important.

Since Jerusalem is not the only global centre of Christianity, but Athens, Canterbury, and Rome etc are arguably just as important.

 

[seventysevens]

But how should one discern between those who reject Christ and those who don't believe that He will return?

Since one cannot be privy to such ulterior motive, how could such motives be discerned by way of the body language?

By what they speak - "you will know them by their fruit"
There are scriptures that teach us - that is why there is teaching that there are 5 Wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins ,

 

[Stonehaven]

By what they speak - "you will know them by their fruit"
There are scriptures that teach us - that is why there is teaching that there are 5 Wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins ,

But how is the 50:50 ratio consistent with Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 22:14 - That many are called, but few are chosen - So that those who are lost will surpass the numbers who are saved?

Perhaps, the "5 wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins" is nothing more than hyperbole - To illustrate this Parable, as a foretaste of what to expect in the Last days - Which would still be consistent with Matthew 22:14?

 

[seventysevens]

The "5 wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins"
Represent 5 that prepare themselves and 5 foolish that did not think that preparing themselves was a priority until the 'moment of truth' came - then they realized that they should have listened and prepared
Recall the parable of the seeds that fell on different types of soil ?
Some people follow Christ and fall away fast ,
many are called , few are chosen , many will profess to follow Christ , few will actually choose to enter the narrow gate

But how is the 50:50 ratio consistent with Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 22:14 - That many are called, but few are chosen - So that those who are lost will surpass the numbers who are saved?

Perhaps, the "5 wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins" is nothing more than hyperbole - To illustrate this Parable, as a foretaste of what to expect in the Last days - Which would still be consistent with Matthew 22:14?

 

[Davy]

But this doesn't change the fact that whatever happens here in the interim is still important.

Since Jerusalem is not the only global centre of Christianity, but Athens, Canterbury, and Rome etc are arguably just as important.

My reply was in regard to your posting of Scripture about the destructions to occur upon the earth on the last day, not some generalization about where Christianity's earthly regions are.

 

[Stonehaven]

a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS ...("ethnos=PEOPLES=societies = sheep/goats) ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7:9-17

Those believing survivors of the Great Tribulation are from "Every nation and tribe and people and tongue", which is according to Revelation 7:9.

But this needs to be reconciled with God's Judgement of the nations in Matthew 25:31-36.

The Orthodox interpretation is to assume that all the Christian nations are sheep on the right, but the heathen countries are represented by the goats on the left.

However, we are constantly reminded that there would still be survivors from "Every nation", which implies that no country would be completely destroyed by the Tribulation - Except that there would be relatively more survivors from the Christian nations on the right, but significantly fewer from the heathen countries on the left.

Having said that, we must also remind ourselves that even within Christianity some countries would still be deemed more righteous than others - As we are not to assume that all Christians are "equal" or the same in terms of their righteousness.

Since the extent of one's righteousness is directly correlated with one's willingness to honour the Covenant of Christ, but not every Christian country would be "equal" in such regard.

Thus, we know that there will be more Christian survivors than others who are heathen, which means that all the Christian nations would still be dominant in the aftermath of the Great Tribulation; but some Christian nations would still be more dominant than others since there would be more survivors from those countries.

Now, those countries would have more survivors since they are deemed to be more righteous in terms of their relationship with the Covenant.

Therefore, the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem would still be dominated by Christian nations, but those dominant nations won't be the same countries which are now dominant in the present tense.

This is the future geopolitical map, according to End Times prophecy in the New Testament.

 

[Stonehaven]

Therein, lies the problem. You have it fixed in your head what is meant by "few" as being certain number - which you have no idea of what that number is that you can pinpoint from the bible. You can't say 20, 200, 2000, 200,000, 2 million, 20 million, 200 million. Of the Jews, one could reason a third of the population will survive the great tribulation from the text in Zechariah 13:8.

Few in the Isaiah prophecy is a relevant term in regards to the population of the earth before the Great Tribulation begins and after it is over. You don't have an actual number. No-one has - humanly speaking.

So, we don't know exactly what a "few" is, but God has predestined individuals and entire nations to either be saved or not saved - Which has got nothing to do with Calvinism, since Calvin denied the existence of freewill - According to Romans 9:22-23.

This means that some countries would still have more survivors than others, based on the law of average that some people would stand a better chance of surviving than others - Since they are genetically and environmentally predisposed to survive, as opposed to rejecting God's covenant.

So, although there are invariably only a "few" from "every country" it can be as few as 2 people, which means that such a country could never survive in the long term, but they would ultimately lose their sense of national identity by way of assimilation with other countries which are numerically greater.

Thus, entire countries could effectively be extinct in the long term, although there would still be survivors from "every country" in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation.

Such extinction could still happen without God breaking his promise that "Every country" would survive the Great Tribulation.

Since their survival in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:9) is no guarantee of their long term and eternal survival in the new heaven and earth.

So, God has predestined some countries to be "vessels of wrath" which would be destroyed by the Great Tribulation, but this does not in anyway contradict his promise that there would still be survivors from "Every country" (Revelation 7:9) in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation.

Since in the long term, entire countries could still be extinct if they have only 2 survivors.

Also, there is no guarantee of diversity amongst those countries who survive the Tribulation.

Since God promised that "Every nation and tribe" would still survive the Tribulation, but the Bible is no guarantee that there would still be diversity amongst those countries that survive the Tribulation.

Although God has promised the immediate survival of "Every tribe" - Which are transnational diasporas - there is no guarantee that "Every tribe would still be represented within every country" in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation.

 

[Stone Chapel]

Stonehaven, are you saying you refuse to be taken alive to meet Christ in the air ? thats your rights anyway.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

By definition, it's impossible to be "taken alive to meet Christ in the air" with any race which are inferior to Wasps.

But the future forecast doesn't look very good for you nor your country if you are still insistent on your own version of the "truth" with total disrespect, and disregard for everything that Jesus has said about the Resurrection. John 11:25-26, Romans 10:9

 

[Stone Chapel]

That is a flawed statement to begin with
God will most definitely judge the earth , the rapture/harpazo Is Jesus way of protecting those who love Him and have followed Jesus commands , He tells us that he will come for His Bride and those who are ready -waiting and expecting Him to come will be raptured ,
but there are those who reject Christ and those who don't believe Christ will return and they will miss the harpazo and must go through the GT judgment period - quite simple if you know the bus is coming and you are not ready for it you will miss it , ya gotta be ready and expecting it beforehand

But I don't think that this could ever happen here on British soil for the simple fact that the U.K. Government is still proactive in assisting the "USA which is leading the enemy attacks".

 

[Micah888]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth (Isaiah 24:5-6) by making reference to the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I believe there is some confusion in your understanding of this matter.

1. Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture do not rule out God's judgments which will come upon the unbelieving and the ungodly after their departure.

2. The Church (the children of God) will live eternally in their eternal home -- the New Jerusalem.

3. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation will bring death and destruction to the unbelieving and the ungodly. The ones who are saved during the Tribulation will be martyred by the Antichrist.

4. God will preserve a believing remnant of Jews through the Tribulation period, and then Christ will redeem and restore Israel and establish His Kingdom for 1,000 years.

5. Later, when God establishes the New Heavens and the New Earth, there will be saved nations on earth along with saved Israel. But the eternal home of the Church will always be in the New Jerusalem.