The Rapture could never be legitimate grounds to refute God's Judgment of the earth.

[Stonehaven]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth (Isaiah 24:5-6) by making reference to the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

So, here is the excerpt from Isaiah 24:5-6, which has prophesied the Coming Judgment:

5 The earth is polluted by its people. They haven’t obeyed the laws of the Lord. They haven’t done what he told them to do. THEY'VE BROKEN THE COVENANT THAT WILL LAST FOREVER.

6 So the Lord will send a curse on the earth. Its people will pay for what they’ve done. THEY WILL BE BURNED UP. VERY FEW OF THEM WILL BE LEFT.

However, there are some Christians who would try to reinterpret the context of Isaiah 24:5-6 by using 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to suggest 2 different outcome:-

(1) Christians alive on the earth will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement, so that the only people who would perish are the Non-believers, but no Christian would ever be destroyed by God's Judgement of the earth.

(2) Those who are still left alive after the Judgement will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven, and those Christians will stay in heaven for all eternity.

So, here is the excerpt from 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the basis of this argument:

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.

However, such arguments based on 1 Thessalonians 4 are fundamentally flawed in regards to points (1) and (2).

Since both arguments have presupposed that "All the Christians will be taken up to heaven" SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT AT ALL ON THE EARTH.

This implies that the Future new heaven and earth - Or the New Jerusalem - WILL NOT BE RULED NOR INHABITED BY THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. Revelation 21

Since there would be no Future generations of Christians left at all once their forebears are "Taken up to meet Jesus in heaven" and there is no prospect of those people coming back to earth according to Christian theology = Hebrews 9:27.

Therefore, such an argument is fundamentally flawed since it presupposes the OUTRIGHT GENOCIDE AND EXTINCTION OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Such an argument is flawed since it is not compatible with the BIOLOGICAL SURVIVAL OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Discuss.

 

[R. Hartono]

Just wait and let God fulfill His Plan so we can save ourselves from unecessary disputes and keep praying for one another.

 

[seventysevens]

However, there are some Christians who would try to reinterpret the context of Isaiah 24:5-6 by using 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to suggest 2 different outcome:-

(1) Christians alive on the earth will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement, so that the only people who would perish are the Non-believers, but no Christian would ever be destroyed by God's Judgement of the earth.

(2) Those who are still left alive after the Judgement will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven, and those Christians will stay in heaven for all eternity.

Discuss.

First thing to Discuss is that you have posted things that show your own error in how you interpret the scriptures
There will be Christians that will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement- but there will also be Christians that will die as martyrs during the trials on earth - and there will be remnant that find safety in Jordan/Petra
Christians will not stay in heaven for all eternity as Jesus will return to earth and setup His kingdom on earth and Christians will return to earth with Jesus and reign with Jesus on earth

 

[God bless Joshua]

SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT AT ALL ON THE EARTH.

In the vision of the Grief Tribulation, John saw a great multitude of people in heaven

John has been explained who are these multitude,
14....These are they which came out of great tribulation,
These multitude with their physical bodies wont suffer from hunger or heat or thirst any longer.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Their bodies thus will become incorruptible as prophesied by Paul :
1 Cor 15:52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

THE GREAT MULTITUDE CONSIST OF THE RESURRECTED CHRISTIANS SINCE THE EARLY CHURCH AND THE LIVING SAINTS.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JOHN HAS ALSO SEEN THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS IN HEAVEN, THESE WERE ASKED TO BE PATIENT.

11...they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This explains that the foolish virgins left behind in the world will be beheaded in the tribulation should they refuse to worship the beast and rcv its mark.

 

[Stonehaven]

Just wait and let God fulfill His Plan so we can save ourselves from unecessary disputes and keep praying for one another.

Alternatively, those Christians who will be "Taken up to meet Jesus in heaven" may well be a figurative expression, which means that there would still be Christians left alive on the earth, but they are simply "Uplifted in spirit" to receive Christ as their Saviour.

A spiritual metaphor that makes no reference to the physical state of those Christians, but its purpose is simply to describe the emotive, psychological and spiritual state of the followers of Christ.

This would be wholly consistent with the prophesied destruction of the earth's inhabitants, such that only "Few would still be left alive after God's Judgement of the earth".

In the final analysis, both Isaiah 24:5-6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are mutually inclusive and perfectly compatible with each other, as long as V16/V17 are rendered a Figurative rather than literal translation.

There is no other way to resolve the apparent contradiction between Isaiah 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Edit: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is figurative insofar as the "Christians who are taken up to heaven" are the deceased followers of Christ whose souls would go to heaven once they are deceased. But those Christians are "taken up to heaven" no more so than a student can be "sent up to Oxford", which is the figurative element in V16/V17. Although, these Christians would literally go to heaven, it is no more than a metaphor to suggest that they would be "Taken up to heaven" - Since heaven is geographically no higher than the earth.

 

[Stonehaven]

First thing to Discuss is that you have posted things that show your own error in how you interpret the scriptures
There will be Christians that will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement- but there will also be Christians that will die as martyrs during the trials on earth - and there will be remnant that find safety in Jordan/Petra
Christians will not stay in heaven for all eternity as Jesus will return to earth and setup His kingdom on earth and Christians will return to earth with Jesus and reign with Jesus on earth

But do you have relevant quotes from the Bible to support this.

 

[seventysevens]

But do you have relevant quotes from the Bible to support this.

The question is why have you not studied Gods Word so you would find it rather than reading commentaries and then commenting on them
You start the thread as a challenge to "what some people say"
then you show that what you say is in error

Instead of that approach what you should do is simply state your own view without involving other peoples view - then discuss the view you have and you will see people giving scripture that shows your misunderstanding

 

[Stonehaven]

The question is why have you not studied Gods Word so you would find it rather than reading commentaries and then commenting on them
You start the thread as a challenge to "what some people say"
then you show that what you say is in error

Instead of that approach what you should do is simply state your own view without involving other peoples view - then discuss the view you have and you will see people giving scripture that shows your misunderstanding

Still, you have refused to provide REAL evidence from the Bible, since I contend that no such evidence exists; and it is standard academic practice to supply evidence in support of what you claimed.

Otherwise, how do we know that it's not made up?

Trying to shift the burden of proof will not suffice to support what you have claimed.

First thing to Discuss is that you have posted things that show your own error in how you interpret the scriptures
There will be Christians that will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement- but there will also be Christians that will die as martyrs during the trials on earth - and there will be remnant that find safety in Jordan/Petra
Christians will not stay in heaven for all eternity as Jesus will return to earth and setup His kingdom on earth and Christians will return to earth with Jesus and reign with Jesus on earth

With the exception of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 nothing else you have said is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Also, those Christians in heaven will not return to the earth with Christ, since they have no physical bodies and they exist only in spiritual form.

Revelation 20 does not say that those Christians would return to the earth to reign with Christ.

But in anycase, the Bible maintains that "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 7:13-14, 22:14), which implies that Christians who are saved would still be significantly outnumbered by Faux Christians who are not saved.

 

[Douggg]

But do you have relevant quotes from the Bible to support this.

Match the colors between passages to see the connections between Luke 21, 1Thessalonians4, 1Thessalonians5, 2Thessalonians2.

Taken up to heaven to avoid the early parts of the Day of the Lord (which begins when Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God in 2Thessalonians2:3-4) - Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

______________________________________________________________________
Day of the Lord begins....

1Thessalonians5:1-8.

The Antichrist committing the act will be unexpected as the Jews and the world will be thinking they are living in the messiah age, false sense of peace and safety.

When sudden destruction comes up on them. Day of the Lord begins, followed shortly by the Great Tribulation beginning.


Resurrection/Rapture in 1Theasslonians5, same chapter, in verses 8-10.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
_____________________________________________________________________

verses 10 and 11 above refer back to previous chapter 4,


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

______________________________________________________________________

So what it boils down to is them who are Christians at the time the resurrection/rapture happens will be taken out of the world sometime before the Day of the Lord begins.

And will be returning with Jesus as His Saints in Revelation 19, Zechariah 14, Jude 1.

 

[Stonehaven]

In the vision of the Grief Tribulation, John saw a great multitude of people in heaven

John has been explained who are these multitude,
14....These are they which came out of great tribulation,
These multitude with their physical bodies wont suffer from hunger or heat or thirst any longer.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

No, Revelation 7:16 doesn't say that the multitude would (still) have "physical" bodies; and there is not a single translation of the Bible which makes such a claim.

They will hunger no more, neither thirst, nor feel the sun's scorching heat, because the multitude are clearly in heaven, which is a spiritual realm and different from the earth.

Such a distinction between heaven and the earth is a matter of Ontology, which is clearly stated in Revelation 21.

Therefore, this multitude who are in heaven no longer exist in physical form, but they are simply spirits who no longer suffer from hunger neither thirst nor scorching heat from the sun - Since the spirit is impervious to carnal cravings, and impervious to the limitations of the physical body.

PS. The fact that this multitude no longer suffer from hunger neither thirst nor scorching by the sun is not unusual for many of those who are still alive on the earth prior to the Judgement - Since, there are many alive in the present tense who still have the means to avoid carnal cravings and the suffering associated with it. So, there is no 'privilege' whatsoever concerning such a multitude, except that they no longer exist with physical bodies.

Their bodies thus will become incorruptible as prophesied by Paul :
1 Cor 15:52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

THE GREAT MULTITUDE CONSIST OF THE RESURRECTED CHRISTIANS SINCE THE EARLY CHURCH AND THE LIVING SAINTS.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JOHN HAS ALSO SEEN THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS IN HEAVEN, THESE WERE ASKED TO BE PATIENT.

11...they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

But do Christians ever expect the Supernatural, which would defy the rules of logic, and the laws of physics?

The answer is a resounding "NO"!

The so called incorruptible/imperishable bodies of the resurrected dead is nothing more than a metaphor; otherwise, one would have to render a literal translation of 1 Corinthians 15:52, which would defy the rules of logic, and the laws of physics.

But for those of us who have any shred of commonsense, this is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Douggg]

But do you have relevant quotes from the Bible to support this.

I didn't address all of your talking points in my previous post #9 because it would have been too long - for people's attention span.

The Day of the Lord begins with tough times - then turns to good for the 1000 year millennium - then ends with one last short rebellion by Satan - and the destruction of the earth and the first and second heavens. Then the Great White Throne judgement.

The Great Tribulation is a 1335 day timeframe right at the start of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord begins with - the Transgression of Desolation act (see Daniel 8:12-13 )
The Great Tribulation begins with - the Abomination of Desolation idol

Closely timed with each other, but distinctly differ. Important to get a grasp on the two being different.

The Transgression of Desolation act cannot be pinpointed on a timeline - thus is like a thief in the night.

The Abomination of Desolation idol placed in the temple - 1335 days before Jesus returns.

__________________________________________________________________

There are them taken in rapture before the Day of the Lord begins - return with Jesus in eternal incorruptible bodies.

There are them martyred for their faith in Christ during the Great Tribulation - resurrected in eternal incorruptible bodies at the beginning of the thousand years.

Separately, since the rapture takes place earlier, who will repopulate the earth, and will there be Christians in our present bodies here on earth during that time? Yes.

1. There are them who become Christians during the Great Tribulation and survive it - those are the Christians in their same as now bodies who enter the millennium.

2. There will be them from the heathen who survive the Great Tribulation - a portion of whom will become Christians when Jesus returns.

Repopulating the earth - there will be them born of survivors of the Great Tribulation, from groups 1 and 2, who will have children who will have children, generations, during the millennium, some of them born in those generations will become Christians as well.

 

[Stonehaven]

There are them taken in rapture before the Day of the Lord begins - return with Jesus in eternal incorruptible bodies.

First of all, there is absolutely nothing at all in the Bible to say that those Raptured Christians would literally RETURN with Jesus; but I would still be open to retract this counter claim as long as you can provide relevant Scripture to prove that those Christians would literally RETURN from heaven.

Secondly, those Christians will have eternal incorruptible bodies which are not made of flesh at all - Since, by definition, the flesh is not incorruptible and God told Adam that his flesh is no more than "dust which will return to the earth".

Also, the Bible says that the flesh of the deceased is like "dust to dust, and ashes to ashes, we commit his body to the earth from whence it came".

So, by definition, the flesh body is fundamentally different from the spiritual body; since the spirit is incorruptible, but the flesh is not incorruptible.

Therefore, those Christians could never Return to earth with their present physical (or flesh) bodies, as such bodies would've long since decomposed and returned to the soil.

Since you provide no Scriptural basis whatsoever to support your claim that "all those Christians would return from heaven with their eternal incorruptible bodies made of FLESH", which is logically impossible and the Bible doesn't say this at all.

Such falsehood is simply contrived and concocted, since there is no explicit mention of it anywhere in the Bible.

There are them martyred for their faith in Christ during the Great Tribulation - resurrected in eternal incorruptible bodies at the beginning of the thousand years.

Separately, since the rapture takes place earlier, who will repopulate the earth, and will there be Christians in our present bodies here on earth during that time? Yes.

1. There are them who become Christians during the Great Tribulation and survive it - those are the Christians in their same as now bodies who enter the millennium.

2. There will be them from the heathen who survive the Great Tribulation - a portion of whom will become Christians when Jesus returns.

Repopulating the earth - there will be them born of survivors of the Great Tribulation, from groups 1 and 2, who will have children who will have children, generations, during the millennium, some of them born in those generations will become Christians as well.

Again, this is false. Since the flesh was never meant to be "eternal and incorruptible" according to what God had said to Adam soon after he disobeyed God's commandment.

Therefore, those Christians could never survive indefinitely in their flesh bodies; but the earth could only be repopulated by the "Few Christians and heathens (but predominantly Christian) who are still alive after the Tribulation" in accordance with Isaiah 24:6.

The future biological survival of humans is Entirely in the hands of the "Very few survivors who remain after the Tribulation".

Since those Christians taken up into heaven would only continue to exist as spirits, but bereft of flesh bodies they would have no input nor any relevance to the future development or survival of the earth's genetic pool.

More crucially, Isaiah 24 does not say that those few survivors left on the earth should be from "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues", since Revelation 7:9 is all about the Raptured and Martyred Christians who are in heaven; but those Christians who are in heaven have no relevance regarding the few Christians who are still alive on the earth after the Tribulation.

So, as concerning the interim prior to the Rapture and Tribulation, God still has free rein to decide who will go to heaven, and who will not - As contingent on their willingness to honour the new covenant, which is called the "everlasting covenant" in Isaiah 24:5.

Since V5 says that those who would perish in the Tribulation will perish because they have "broken the Covenant that will last forever".

Now, since V6 does not explicitly say that the "few survivors should be from every nation" it means that God still has free rein to wipe out any country, or to wipe out any group of people - Since heaven and the earth are distinctly and fundamentally different, and there is no correlation at all between Revelation 7:9 (Whereby, every nation and tribe is mentioned) and Isaiah 24:6 which makes no explicit mention of "Every nation and tribe".

Such a distinction between heaven and the earth, between the spiritual and flesh body is fundamental and important - Since its implications are far reaching and geopolitical in nature - Since it represents the "soft underbelly" of the Beast which will go to destruction in Revelation 17, and we know that the Antichrist nation is the most powerful member of the G8.

 

[Douggg]

First of all, there is absolutely nothing at all in the Bible to say that those Raptured Christians would literally RETURN with Jesus; but I would still be open to retract this counter claim as long as you can provide relevant Scripture to prove that those Christians would literally RETURN from heaven.

Is the point you are questioning (1) that those raptured Christians raptured to heaven, escaping the great tribulation, return with Jesus to reign and rule with Jesus for the thousand years ?

or (2) those raptured Christians never go to heaven in the first place, but meet Jesus in the air as in the post trib view?

Either way, in 1Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So since Jesus returns to this earth at the Second Coming - that's where those Christians who are raptured aforehand will be with Him as well - "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

[Stonehaven]

Is the point you are questioning (1) that those raptured Christians raptured to heaven, escaping the great tribulation, return with Jesus to reign and rule with Jesus for the thousand years ?

or (2) those raptured Christians never go to heaven in the first place, but meet Jesus in the air as in the post trib view?

Either way, in 1Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So since Jesus returns to this earth at the Second Coming - that's where those Christians who are raptured aforehand will be with Him as well - "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

However, as you know, Christ can only "Return in the Spirit", but the Bible does not say that he would return physically to the earth.

As on the contrary, the Bible says that on his return, Christ would come on the clouds with great power and glory, which is physically impossible - Although it is perfectly feasible for a "Spiritually uplifted Christ" to return in the manner described.

Nothing more than a spiritual metaphor to describe the Second Coming of Christ; that Christ will return only in the Spirit, but he can't possibly return physically.

Since the Bible makes no such claim that "Christ would return physically to the earth"; and we all KNOW that on his return, Christ would have a different appearance from "Jesus of Nazareth" who lived in the 1st century Roman Empire.

That itself, is compelling evidence to prove that Christ could only ever "Return in the Spirit" - Since the Spirit is eternal and incorruptible - but there is no prospect that he should ever "Return physically to the earth" - As by definition, the physical body is not incorruptible and the flesh of the Nazarene is long since decomposed and returned to the earth from whence it came.

The same principle applies to all the Raptured Christians who will "Return only in the spirit", but there is no prospect that they should ever "Return physically to the earth" - Since the flesh is not incorruptible, unlike the spiritual bodies of the deceased.

Ultimately, this implies that none of these Raptured Christians would have any physical input nor relevance to the future development or survival of the earth's genetic pool - As by definition, the flesh body cannot be "resurrected", but "Resurrection of eternal incorruptible bodies" is simply a spiritual metaphor to describe "Resurrection of the Spirit".

By definition, the earth could never be repopulated by those Raptured Christians who cannot "Return physically to the earth".

That is solely in the hands of the "Very few Christians (and heathens) who are still alive after the Tribulation" (Isaiah 24:6) - Since only the survivors would still have physical bodies, which are required to procreate all the future generations of humankind on the earth.

 

[Douggg]

Since you provide no Scriptural basis whatsoever to support your claim that "all those Christians would return from heaven with their eternal incorruptible bodies made of FLESH", which is logically impossible and the Bible doesn't say this at all.

I didn't say or mean to imply made of flesh like we have now. But I will say of some created matter - imo, similiar to the angels which there is nothing on this present earth compares.

What are the angels bodies made of? Nobody really knows. Paul did say the new bodies will be heavenly, not earthly, which leads me to believe like the heavenly angels...
what do you think?

Which we don't know the process which God will take the earthly bodies that have returned to dust, in the resurrection to redeem (exchange) those bodies to be heavenly like the angels (like the angels, my comment). But let's just believe and trust God that He can do it, rather than argue over it.

 

[tranquil]

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

the 'caught up to' is the magical Greek word 'harpazo', supposedly the word that 'proves' a 'whisked away rapture'.

but even here, Paul is not insisting on 'harpazo' meaning 'whisked bodily away to heaven'. Clearly, there is a metaphorical meaning Paul is using, meaning a 'spiritual vision'.

and Jesus says that the 'messengers'/ angels will gather people. Dead Christians will be gathered - in heaven. Living Christians will be gathered (both the wise & foolish virgins), then the wise virgins will be 'seized' - but not to heaven, to the kingdom of heaven on earth. Not whisked away to to heaven and then forced to make an immediate U turn!

Matt 24

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[...]
37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

[coming of the son of man, same as verse 30: Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man​

38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’

49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

cont'd Matt 25

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.

[here is the 'kingdom of heaven' on earth - defined as 5 wise virgins & 5 foolish virgins]​

2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.

5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.

[no one was 'whisked away raptured' at all. The kingdom of heaven has started (happens at the start of the Day of the Lord, when Satan is kicked out of 'heaven' (means the church body) and Michael 'stands up', but Jesus hasn't arrived yet. The foolish virgins are tempted into the arms of the antichrist, as the church body needs to be purged of the unfaithful.]​

6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.​

the 'great tribulation' starts with the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem and lasts for 45 days, then the day of the Lord cuts off this great tribulation - meaning Satan is kicked out of the church body, the kingdom of heaven on earth is like 10 virgins waiting for Jesus, because he is 'delayed'. When the great tribulation has ended, this starts the process of being gathered by the 'messengers'/ angels.

then there is 'woe to the earth & sea', because these portions still have Satan (but not the 'kingdom of heaven' on earth.)

this is what is being described in the 6th Seal through the trumpets. there is no 'need' for a 'whisked away rapture'.

 

[Stonehaven]

I didn't say or mean to imply made of flesh like we have now. But I will say of some created matter - imo, similiar to the angels which there is nothing on this present earth compares. Paul uses the term spiritual bodies. Because Paul did not know himself a different way to put it, I don't think. Obviously, neither do I.

What are the angels bodies made of? Nobody really knows. Paul did say the new bodies will be heavenly, not earthly, which leads me to believe like the heavenly angels...
what do you think?

Which we don't know the process which God will take the earthly bodies that have returned to dust, in the resurrection to redeem (exchange) those bodies to be heavenly like the angels (like the angels, my comment). But let's just believe and trust God that He can do it, rather than argue over it.

By definition, those "heavenly bodies" would be unlike any flesh bodies; but the procreation of all the future generations of humans (after the Tribulation) requires them to have physical bodies.

The "heavenly bodies" you referenced have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans on the earth, since spiritual bodies have no reproductive powers at all.

 

[Douggg]

However, as you know, Christ can only "Return in the Spirit", but the Bible does not say that he would return physically to the earth.

It is unarguable that Jesus will return in His glorified form.

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

As on the contrary, the Bible says that on his return, Christ would come on the clouds with great power and glory, which is physically impossible - Although it is perfectly feasible for a "Spiritually uplifted Christ" to return in the manner described.

I think you are (mis)using the term "physical" when you really mean earthly.

Jesus will be returning in His Glorified Heavenly form - which He will be perceptible by them here on earth with their sense of sight. "Physical" has a couple of definitions.

 

[Douggg]

By definition, those "heavenly bodies" would be unlike any flesh bodies; but the procreation of all the future generations of humans (after the Tribulation) requires them to have physical bodies.

The "heavenly bodies" you referenced have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans on the earth, since spiritual bodies have no reproductive powers at all.

I addressed the re-population of the earth in my post #11 as being separate from the raptured Christians. Here it is again.


1. There are them who become Christians during the Great Tribulation and survive it - those are the Christians in their same as now bodies who enter the millennium.

2. There will be them from the heathen who survive the Great Tribulation - a portion of whom will become Christians when Jesus returns.

Repopulating the earth - there will be them born of the survivors of the Great Tribulation, from groups 1 and 2, who will have children who will have children, generations, during the millennium, some of them born in those generations will become Christians as well.

 

[R. Hartono]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth by making reference to the Rapture

You are the kind of Bridegroom who will let your Bride beaten black and blue and then beheaded in the tribulation.