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The Qur'an

IronPillar

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"Then God spoke to Moses, telling him, "I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but I did not make My name Yahweh known to them." Exodus ;6:2-4
This is the God Abraham worshiped.Later Moses and David and Elijah and the prophets seved this God.
Then where did Allah and Mohammad come from?
Allah [God] in the Holy Bible and Tarah got a Name.Not a Name given by humans.A Name God himself revealed to his servants.

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
 
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IronPillar

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Adeeb said:
1 of the many examples.

1)"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's(dharra) weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..." 34:3
Explanation: 14 centuries ago the arabic word dharra commonly refered to the smallest particle know to man. this theory was popularized by greek philosopher Democritus.The verse however says "even anything smaller than that" meaning that there is something even smaller than the atom.
Question: How did Muhammad know there were particles smaller than the atom?

I will post some more examples later.

Adeeb, Don't worry about the knowldge of God. "He is infinite in wisdom."or "His understanding is infinite."
But who is this God you are talking about?Is it Allah in the Koran and is Mohammad his prophet? Is Koran the true God of God ?These are the questions we discuss here. I guess !

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world. Anyone who follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."John; 8:12
 
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EnBelgique

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Adeeb said:
1 of the many examples.

1)"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's(dharra) weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..." 34:3
Explanation: 14 centuries ago the arabic word dharra commonly refered to the smallest particle know to man. this theory was popularized by greek philosopher Democritus.The verse however says "even anything smaller than that" meaning that there is something even smaller than the atom.
Question: How did Muhammad know there were particles smaller than the atom?

I will post some more examples later.
He didn't but he imagined so. One needs only to look at the fruits of Islam to see whether it be good or bad.
What good fruits come from this tree and what evil fruits come from it? Weigh them up and see!
 
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Osiris

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Adeeb said:
1 of the many examples.

1)"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's(dharra) weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..." 34:3

actually, it says... "anything smaller or greater than that"...

Explanation: 14 centuries ago the arabic word dharra commonly refered to the smallest particle know to man. this theory was popularized by greek philosopher Democritus.The verse however says "even anything smaller than that" meaning that there is something even smaller than the atom.
Question: How did Muhammad know there were particles smaller than the atom?

it is funny... why does the quran have to be verified by the modern atomic theory? are modern scientists people close to being gods?

the reason i am saying this is because i know these typical rhetoric questions muslims always ask... "scientists just discovered this.... how did mohammad know that 1400 years ago?"

atoms on the other hand, there is no emperical evidence that shows that there is something smaller than an atom just like we can show that the earth is round and not flat. the atomic theory is a systematic model created to be a groundwork for chemistry by means of math/physics/(in other words.. through theoretical means not a'postpriori) ..... so, what i want to say, in nothing in scientific theories are certain -- but that doesn't mean scientific theories are useless... scientists use them because current scientific theories are shown to give results (but scientists know it is not 100% certain).

in conclsion, what i see is that if you want to verify the quran by scientific theories... then the quran is dependent on these theories to be 100% certain and the only way that could happen is if scientists are god themselves....
 
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Kris_J

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Adeeb said:
Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God(Allah) revealed to Muhammad(s.a.w.). Im guessing the christians believe that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an. I basically want to know why you think that the Qur'an is not the word of God and how would you explain scientific, philosophical, historical, geological, astronomical etc.,verses in the Qur'an.

Please do this on a rational and intellectual basis.
On a purely rational & intellectual basis the existence of God cannot even be proven let alone a book God has supposedly authored.

I would not believe the Quran is the direct word of God because I believe the direct word of God is unmistakably & universally recognised as the direct word of God.

Many ordinary humans view the ("direct & perfect work of Allah") aka Quran as the work of the Devil.

Do you believe that such a perfect & direct work of Allah can possibly be mistaken as the work of the Devil?
 
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peaceful soul

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Adeeb said:
1 of the many examples.

1)"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's(dharra) weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..." 34:3
Explanation: 14 centuries ago the arabic word dharra commonly refered to the smallest particle know to man. this theory was popularized by greek philosopher Democritus.The verse however says "even anything smaller than that" meaning that there is something even smaller than the atom.
Question: How did Muhammad know there were particles smaller than the atom?

I will post some more examples later.

You have ceased to follow the Qu'ran because you have now embraced science. Think about that for a moment. Perhaps you will grasp my meaning.
 
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coyote

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1 of the many examples.

1)"He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's(dharra) weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..." 34:3
Explanation: 14 centuries ago the arabic word dharra commonly refered to the smallest particle know to man. this theory was popularized by greek philosopher Democritus.The verse however says "even anything smaller than that" meaning that there is something even smaller than the atom.
Question: How did Muhammad know there were particles smaller than the atom?

I will post some more examples later

So does one scientific error in the koran invalidate the entire koran? Also I do not see what is so big about this passage. Looks to me like Muhammad is just hedging his bets. For example if I were to say that I know of the earth and things smaller and larger than the earth does this make me divine? No, but I just hedged my bets. That there is something smaller and larger than the earth.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Adeeb said:
Im guessing the christians believe that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an.

What it seems reasonable is that he passed it on to those who writing. Like he was dictating. Source of the inspirations is not God but Satan. That makes the difference.


I basically want to know why you think that the Qur'an is not the word of God and how would you explain scientific, philosophical, historical, geological, astronomical etc.,verses in the Qur'an.

What good is it to me when I have scientific nonsense in a "holy" book supposed to show me the way to heaven and give me hope and peace? It is Satan's carefully crafted tool to deceive.
 
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seed757

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Fares said:
seed757
the Bible works for the salvation of human kind .

Says who? Human kind or God All-Mighty? I mean if that is your opinion that's great and all, but I don't really think human kind has the authority, nor the power to make that so, no matter how bad they want it to be so. It seems as if God has the final word on the matter, regardless of how difficult it may be to swallow, nor how strange certain things may seem to us as humans. I mean if God chose to send an illiterate Arab tribesman to teach people the way to live the highest form of exsistence on Earth as well as in the Hereafter, then who am I, as a human being, to argue with God and try to tell Him how He should run the universe?
 
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Fares

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It seems as if God has the final word on the matter
At least we agree on this thing .
And thats why I folow the Bible, the Word of God not the word of mohammed .
I mean if God chose to send an illiterate Arab tribesman to teach people the way to live the highest form of exsistence on Earth as well as in the Hereafter, then who am I, as a human being, to argue with God and try to tell Him how He should run the universe?
Who told you God did ? The Qu`ran or Mohammed ?
For sure not the Bible .
 
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Osiris

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Fares said:
seed757
the Bible works for the salvation of human kind .
you are using double standards Fares....

you have to accept that the bible might be a tool used to deceive people as well.

p.s.
the way i see it though is that all scriptures(bible, quran, etc) are tools of deceit of satan... god will only save those who didn't fall victim(atheists ;) ) through their(scriptures) logical fallacies(circular reasoning, bandwagon/popularity, biased reasoning, and many others) to believe in them.
 
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seed757

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Fares said:
I am not using a double standards .
Look at Jesus no matter if he did exist or not, following his
foot steps is the right thing to do .
Jesus said :"Love and forgive those who hate you" .
Can this be Satan ?

It still could be of Satan in a sense. Think of it like this. Of course I could love and forgive my enemies and those that hate me. That is a very noble aspect of the humane condition. But on the flip side of that it can still be abused for evil. Example: I would not have a problem forgiving the wrongs done to me or my family or culture or anything else, but if I let one attempt to steal from me;kill me, my family, my race, my nation; destroy my culture, my livlihood, my principles without doing anything about, simply because I am to love them, is, by default, honoring and bowing to the will of Satan. There must be certain precepts to be adhered in order to understand what Jesus(PBUH) is saying by these words. If not, then sure , Satan can easily use these words for his own twisted purposes.
 
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Osiris

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Fares said:
I am not using a double standards .
Look at Jesus no matter if he did exist or not, following his
foot steps is the right thing to do .
Jesus said :"Love and forgive those who hate you" .
Can this be Satan ?

Jesus was certainly not the originator of such concept ("Love those who hate you."), there hundreds of people saying just that before the bible was written.
 
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IronPillar

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Science is the study of the things created by God.Analyzing and reseaching the created things.It is not the study of God.The Bible deals with God ,His nature ,his power and authority.His salvation plans for the mankind and his future plans for the world.If you want to study science join a Christian University.

"For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached." 1 Corinthians;1:21
 
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Adeeb

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Osiris said:
actually, it says... "anything smaller or greater than that"...


this depends on the english translation but nonethless it still says smaller indicating that there is something smaler than the atom.

Now you people have clearly misunderstood me. you have claimed that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an and in that case I have and will be presenting verses showing of knowledge posessed in the Quran that no man at the time could have had. I am not saying you have to believe because of this. all I want is your explanation as to how Muhammad got his information. the Qur'an is not a book of science. Should science be used as the only tool to prove the Qur'an's validity? NO. is it the only tool? no. why choose science? because we live in a modern world of thinking where science is the basis of thinking. science is not the only criteria but one of them.

getting back to the topic.

Topic: Science in the Qur'an
1)"Praise be to Allah, the lord of the worlds."1:1
Explanation: the Qur'an states "lord of the worlds" indicating more than one world, planet, galaxy, however you interpret it.
Question: how did Muhammad know there were more "worlds" other than earth?
2)"Have they not who disbelieve seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one piece), then we parted them." 21:30
Explanation: the Qur'an explains a mystery that physicists and astronauts have been trying to figure out for centuries. this mystery is the creation of the universe, using 2 specific words; Fataq and Rataq. the word fataq in arabic signifies the process of breaking and separation of elements, and the word rataq signifies the process of fusing or binding together of elements into a homogenous mass. hence the verse reveals that the heavens and earth at the beginning were together and then separated. this collaborates with the current Big Bang theory of creation that states 20,000,000,000 years ago the universe began with an explosive expansion of a single extremely condensed matter.
Question: How did Muhammad know about the Big Bang theory?
3)"He comprehended in his design the heaven when it was (only) a smoke." 41:11
Explanation: this verse indicates the heavens in the beginning were just a smoky mass before being transformed into a various galactic system of stars, and planets. A modification of the Big Bang theory describes the original condensed matter as arising from empty space. this is called the "Inflationary theory". the astronomers today have pictures of other galaxies being formed by the condensation of spiraling cosmic mists.
Question: How did Muhammad know that the heavens were just a smokey mass before being transformed into stars and planets?
3) the Qur'an repeatedly refers to 3 groups of creation: things in the Heaven, things on earth, and things between them.
"We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, but for just ends." 15:85
"To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth, and all between them, and all beneath the soil." 20:6
"Not for sport did we create the heavens and the earth and all that is between (them)." 21:16
Explanation: the following verses also mention things created between the heavens and the earth: 25:59;32:4;43:85;44:7;46:3;50:38; and 78:37. The creation of these things mentioned repeatedly is needs explanation. Scientists have recently discovered the existence of extra-galactic material in space. the basic process of the formation of the universe involved fragmentation and condensation. As earlier stated the arabic words fataq(fragmentation) and rataq(fusion) come into play. during the initial process of rataq(fusion), a few fragments were left out in space. they are now called interstellar galactic material. these are the materials the Qur'an refers to as between the heavens.
Question: How did Muhammad know of the things that lie between the heavens and earth?

to be continued
 
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seed757

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elijah115 said:
Quran :


“It is better to slaughter than be oppressed!”

Highest standards in deed - kill or be killed

Yes. If one were to attempt to kill either you or I, for no just cause, I would have no choice but to lay my life on the line even to save yours.

"You may fight in the cause of GOD those who fight you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (2:190)
"They question you with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of GOD, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with GOD; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And he who becomes renegade and dies in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein." (2:217)
Contrary to the wishes of many who would rather picture Islam as a warmongering system, the Quran does not allow warfare except in 'self-defense'.

Actually the verse goes as such: Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter...2:191

Meaning that neither are entirely pleasant to deal with, but one has far more reaching and detrimental consequences than the other.
 
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