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The question of the snake in Genesis.

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Ryukil, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I'll ask you a second time:

    Were your parents atheists?
     
  2. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Well if you know this "magic man in the sky" so well, why are you an atheist?
     
  3. Standing_Ultraviolet

    Standing_Ultraviolet Dunkleosteus

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    It's likely that you would have had a somewhat similar impression of the Bible if you had grown up in a culture where the Koran was seen as the holy book (although, given the strong positive feelings that Muslims have toward some of the stories contained in the Bible, it would have been somewhat different). I've read both, and did not end up agreeing with etither (although I preferred the Bible from a literary standpoint because, in English, the Koran is as dry as the Skeleton Coast). My religious path was a result of striving to come to an interpretation of the Bible that I saw as viable, though. It went from a cultural Christianity, to fundamentalism, to Catholicism, and finally to where I am now. That path would have been very different had I not started out with cultural Christianity.

    Our views are shaped by the cultures that we grow up in. You can reach a conclusion on your own, and still have it heavily influenced by the society that you live in. It's not that people don't have choices outside of societal bounds (if they didn't, I wouldn't be a secular humanist), but it's incredibly naive to believe that your response to reading a holy book or any other sort of religious or philosophical text aren't shaped by your experiences and the society that you live in. I'm very much a product of the many factors that have shaped me as a person, even though I obviously still have significant freedom. At no point in my search for truth did I consider Hinduism or consider becoming a Sikh or Jain, because those options weren't at the forefront of my mind. They were possibilities for me, but ones that were very unlikely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  4. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    Apparently you think you have some sort of super powers of all seeing, all
    knowing.
     
  5. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    If you ask evangelicals what the being in Gen 3 was, the most common answer you'll probably get is 'a Satan-possessed snake'.

    And who knows, maybe that's what it was. But among scholars who have a wider view of ANE (Ancient Near East) literature, you'll get more answers like yeshuaslavejeff's. So I thought I'd bolster his answer.

    This year's academic conferences just ended in San Diego (ETS, SBL, etc.). There were probably about 1,000 papers presented. I read very few myself, but I follow some blogs of those that do. These things can easily be hundreds of pages long, and sold in bound books for hundreds of dollars.

    I didn't mean to imply that there are entire books devoted to this particular point. But it's an active area of interest among scholars.

    Here's a 30-minute video describing how the nachash isn't necessarily an animal. The speaker is Dr. Michael Heiser, an ANE scholar and the academic editor for Logos Bible Software. He presumes some familiarity with ANE concepts such as the divine council and the dwelling places of the gods. Who knows, you may find it interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5iZmrocHDo
     
  6. AceHero

    AceHero Veteran

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    I believe God used evolution to bring about humanity.
     
  7. JayFern

    JayFern Active Member

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    No, for them there was no religion so there was no one around to call them atheists, I doubt the word was ever used.
    You only have atheists where there are religious people, if there are no religious people there are no atheists.
    If there are no stamps there are no stamp collectors.

    How can anyone be an unbeliever in something if that something does not exist?
     
  8. JayFern

    JayFern Active Member

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    You are a creationist which tells us you have nothing at all, your brain has been virtually switch off..lobotomized to everything other than creationism.
     
  9. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

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    I can't say I am surprised you came to this conclusion as an agnostic. But it is very refreshing.

    First things: Satan is a generic name for an enemy. The Hebrew word for "enemy/adversary" is literally "satan." It isn't a name; it is a title. There are many, many satans. The satan that tempted men is named Azazal, a powerful angel that led the act among the angels to mate with women. In lore, Azazal has, among many other powers and attributes, a snake avatar that can shapeshift into a human, and even act of its own temporarily without Azazel.


    Azazel was a Grigori according to Enoch - one of the chief of the group of angels that literally fell for earth [women.] He is usually the one people mean when they say Lucifer, or Satan - especially relating to the garden. The Morning Star/Son of the Morning is "Heylel" in Hebrew. It was a dig at a Babylonian king, and figuratively represented a celestial. The ancients knew very we what they were dealing with, and what was going on. Contemporaries have spent centuries trying to reconcile this, and present it in a way that was least offensive to the people. Unfortunately, that meant many useful texts were stolen, destroyed, hidden and changed.

    Talking snakes, gods, magick, and the like we're commonplace. God's exodus judgment was a direct assault on 10 of Egypt's most prominent gods. The technology was different (not worse.)
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter if satan is a title--it is his name also--the president is a title, but everyone knows that if someone says the president did this or said that, that they are talking about the president in the office now. Dr is a title--but if there is only one around and people are calling him dr--they, and he, know who they are referring to. When a child screams "Mom!", she comes running. The captain of a ship will be called just "Captain" and everybody knows who they mean. And there is only one Satan==the one that used to be called Lucifer and he leader of the pack--there are many devils under him, many demons--but only one alpha demon and he directs all the evil.
    There is no such thing as angels, fallen or not, who can mate with humans---What Jesus says trumps what ANYONE else says----

    (Mar 12:25) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    We will be as the angels in heaven--there is no sex in heaven--and if you think God is declaring sex outside of marriage to be sin, then will allow it in heaven where there is no marriage, you have no concept of the character of God. Anyone who claims the opposite of something that Jesus Himself has made perfectly clear, is not of God. Believing a man over Jesus will not lead to truth.
     
  11. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Then your point can take a hike.

    Whatever it was your parents were, why aren't you the same, Mr. Exception?
     
  12. JayFern

    JayFern Active Member

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    Everyone is born an atheist, if no religious person pollutes your mind you remain an atheist.
    There were no religious people around me to pollute my mind so I remained an atheist.
    What about that is so hard for you to understand?
    You were not contaminated with Islam because there were no Muslims around to pollute your mind with Islam.
     
  13. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

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    Except, that isnt his name - satan, and the president is not always the same person. You say Mr. PRESIDENT to be formal, or "President [name here]" for specificity. Names are important spiritually, which is why exorcising priests - including Christ - ask for names. Calling every evil thing satan is just calling it by its title. Is it Azazel, Loki, Heylel... how can you know your enemy if you dont know its name (especially when the identity is in their name)?

    What you are describing is familiar relationships, especially between both intelligible parties. If you do not know Azazel, then saying "satan" did what Azazel did without identifying him is useless. Satan is a Hebrew term that means adversary.

    Christ never said that angels can't mate. He never said they couldn't choose to leave their first estate for earthly women. Genesis 6 clearly states the sons of God found the daughters of men fair, and took them as wives. They had sex with them, and produced the nephilim, rephaim, anakim, and emim. Christ said there is no need for angels to mate in heaven, and that they won't be given into, or marry. This is because they are perfect in all ways. Remember Adam was Adam and Eve before God split them, then gave them marriage (intercourse) to physically join as one? Same scenario. I want to see where Christ says specifically that angels cannot have sex.

    You mean believing Enoch over the centuries of shredded and chopped up texts in a pile of discarded, stolen and hidden documents we call our Canon? Considering it is still in the Ethiopian bible, was considered canon, and the incredible job the Church is doing spreading the truth, I trust no man except Christ. And, no man has the authority to tell me what is inspired of God. That is my spiritual responsibility between my Father and I.

    But, I do read and compare. I have read Enoch, and Christ's words, God's words, the prophets, etc. I see no contradictions. Angels have no need to procreate. There will be no sex in heaven. We are talking about entities that gave up heaven to do things. That is why they are fallen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  14. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    At around the age of 12 or 15 when I looked at the sky and trees and
    creatures and realized that something doesn't come from nothing, I
    became a non-agnostic. (There is no such thing as an atheist as you
    can't prove your non-belief.)
     
  15. VirOptimus

    VirOptimus A nihilist who cares.

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    No, that is not how it works. And what can and cannot be proven has nothing to do with it.

    Learn the definitions, not hard.
     
  16. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Who polluted your parents' minds?

    And having done so, how is it your parents couldn't pollute yours, Mr. Immune?

    Why don't we just simply this conversation and say your point can take a hike?
     
  17. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    If you want to water it down and pretend that "lack of belief in Gods"
    doesn't mean "I choose not to believe in Gods" then o.k.
     
  18. Split Rock

    Split Rock Conflation of Blathers

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    Yet another consel sock puppet. They all speak the same language and repeat the same fallacies.
     
  19. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I know! Don't take the wind out of my sails! ;)
     
  20. JayFern

    JayFern Active Member

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    No one, there was no one around to pollute their minds so they remained without Gods, try and understand this, without religion there are no atheists, THEY WERE NOT ATHEISTS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO RELIGION AROUND THEM.
    Again they didn't because there was nothing to pollute me with just as there were no [metaphorical] stamps for me to collect.
    Some day everything will take a hike for both of us.

    In case you still don't understand...
    BEFORE THERE CAN BE ATHEISTS THERE MUST BE RELIGION, NO RELIGIONS=NO ATHEISTS.
     
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