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The question I have never seen Creationists answer

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Amleto

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My point about the giraffe is thus: The giraffe requires the various valves/sponges that it possesses (in its head/neck) for it to lift/lower its head without fainting. These attributes wouldn't be beneficial for an animal without a 'long' neck (i use 'long' to indicate a neck of sufficent length to require such attributes), yet they must be present before a 'long' neck is acheived.

That is a problem for me, albeit with my limited knowledge.

I concede defeat on a scientific basis to my other points, but partly because I do not have the time to investigate.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Well, the problem is that there is no such thing as a "long" neck. There is no sudden point beyond which the valves are required, and which would be unevolvable under your model. Nor is there a clear "all or nothing" between a modern giraffe's valve arrangement and no valve arrangement at all. All that happens is that as a neck lengthens, the usefulness of such a system increases.

The most likely course is that rudimentary valves (they already exist in veins in the legs, for example; failure of them results in varicose veins) appeared in early not-so-long necked giraffes. These proto-giraffes would have benefited from the arrangement, although they did not absolutely need it to survive.

This would allow those populations with the the rudimentary valves to also evolve slightly longer necks. In these longer necked populations, refinement of the valve apparatus would be a benefit. And so on. In other words, the neck and the valve apparatus evolved together.

That giraffes did evolve from short-necked ancestors is evidenced by the fact that they have, along with other mammals, a rather strange arrangement whereby the pharyngeal nerve runs all the way down the neck, round some blood vessels, and back up the neck again to get from the brain to the pharynx. Not an obvious design in an animal with a neck metres long.
 
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Buck72

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Vance said:
What Creation Science has NOT done is to provide a plausible scientific explanation why evolution *wouldn’t* eventually create new "kinds" if the environmental scenario called for it. They acknowledge (because they can’t deny) that the processes of mutation, selection, etc, work basically how the current state of the theory describes. And these processes, if let go on for long enough and with sufficient pressures, will transform a given population group AS MUCH AS IS BENEFICIAL to best fit the environment. If the degree of beneficial change is so great that it would result in what anyone would have to agree is a new "kind" then what is to stop it? Where is the "brake" in the process which would prevent it from continuing to evolve right on past any "kind" barrier?

This part I have never seen answered. Is there something I am missing here?
There have been no observations current with theoretical speculation of how, when and why a mutation would occur and somehow be beneficial to the establishment of a new species.

There are many KINDS of dogs, but they are still dogs. None of them have come from or will turn into anything but a dog. Time does nothing but obfuscate the non-existent mechanisms and details.

A question I have never heard a evolutionist answer is the explanation of entropy in a (theorized) progessive evolutionary order. Things get old, fade, cool off, wear out, erode, and die. They do not improve or mutate into a purer order or species. Almost all mutations are destructive and no amount of energy added to the system can bring about improvements of that system without a means of harnessing that energy (like photosynthesis).

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics bothers evolutionists and I haven't seen a solid answer yet.
 
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Buck72

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Vance said:
we have a lot of transitional species. Unless, of course, you are looking for something "half-x and half-y". I think Lucaspa has a long list of them.

- evolutionary processes take a LONG time. When there are relatively sudden climatic changes, species can not adapt fast enough to be able to survive in the new environment and go extinct. Perfectly consistent with evolutionary concepts.

- the giraffe is actually a very good example of adaption. This faulty example of a "problem" for evolution was discussed in the science forum and found to be empty.
Never seen a transitional species, and yes, by transitional that would mean half-x/half-y. Predators prey on the weak (natural selection) if there were a transitional species (reptile/bird) it would be without total function in either group, worthless and floundering on the ground, yet unable to fly - sounds like a good meal! :yum:

These transitional varieties would never survive long enough for this "million-year" process. It would be on no advantage to the animal, why would it change?

As for giraffes: If a horse could simply will its neck to grow over the years, how would that desire find itself in the genetic code to produce offspring with the fruit of that desire?

What's wrong with God simply creating the giraffe as is? Doesn't He get any credit for designing the creature as it stands without being subject to man's ideas?

We should nor strive to bring God into our world, but rather seek to understand, with a modicum of humility that we are part of His.

His word is His means of communicate to us, why not believe it?
 
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notto

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Buck72 said:
There have been no observations current with theoretical speculation of how, when and why a mutation would occur and somehow be beneficial to the establishment of a new species.

There are many KINDS of dogs, but they are still dogs. None of them have come from or will turn into anything but a dog. Time does nothing but obfuscate the non-existent mechanisms and details.

A question I have never heard a evolutionist answer is the explanation of entropy in a (theorized) progessive evolutionary order. Things get old, fade, cool off, wear out, erode, and die. They do not improve or mutate into a purer order or species. Almost all mutations are destructive and no amount of energy added to the system can bring about improvements of that system without a means of harnessing that energy (like photosynthesis).

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics bothers evolutionists and I haven't seen a solid answer yet.

You have simply thrown strawmen at the question and have not answered it.

1) Evolution never says that anything but a slightly modified dog will come from a dog.

2) Evolution never says that there is anything as a 'purer order or species'.

3) It doesn't take 'energy' to bring about improvements, it take selection and mutation. Populations evolve, individuals don't.

Why wouldn't natural selection and random mutation lead to evolution? What stops it? This is the question that has never been answered.

Creationists accept 'adaptation'. What stops 'adaptation' from leading to evolution as laid out in evolutionary theory. The answer to this question would need to be a discussion of a mechanism that prevents it. One has not been found or identified (which is why evolution as a theory fails be be falsified).
 
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notto

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Buck72 said:
As for giraffes: If a horse could simply will its neck to grow over the years, how would that desire find itself in the genetic code to produce offspring with the fruit of that desire?
Another strawman. Evolution never says anything remotely close to this.

In a population, there will be variation in neck sizes. If the environment favors those with long necks due to lack of food, the ones with long necks will have a better chance of producing more offspring, producing a new generation with a higher percentage of those with long necks. Repeat, Repeat.
 
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notto

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Buck72 said:
Never seen a transitional species, and yes, by transitional that would mean half-x/half-y. Predators prey on the weak (natural selection) if there were a transitional species (reptile/bird) it would be without total function in either group, worthless and floundering on the ground, yet unable to fly - sounds like a good meal! :yum:
Or, it could become a faster runner with its new found lift or perhaps a glider, leaving its slower, earthbound relatives for dessert.
 
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Vance

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You know, Buck, you are smarter and more sensible than the average YEC, but you simply don't have an understanding of what evolution teaches. Your understanding of these issues seems to have come primarily (if not exclusively) from Creationist sources. This would be like learning about Christianity from an athiest source. I would get a copy of "The Blind Watchmaker", a seminal book on the subject. I do not usually recommend such reading to other YEC's because I just simply don't think they would get it. Even if you don't agree with it, I know you will at least "get it". Definitely worth the investment of time to be able to understand what the "enemy" is truly saying.
 
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Vance

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Buck, see my post above, but I will give you the "quick and dirty" answers to your earlier post:

Buck said:

Never seen a transitional species, and yes, by transitional that would mean half-x/half-y. Predators prey on the weak (natural selection) if there were a transitional species (reptile/bird) it would be without total function in either group, worthless and floundering on the ground, yet unable to fly - sounds like a good meal!

These transitional varieties would never survive long enough for this "million-year" process. It would be on no advantage to the animal, why would it change?

You are misunderstanding how evolution works. According to evolutionary theory, there would NEVER be a creature which is simply a transitional between A and B. To state it more correctly, *every* creature which ever lived (with the distinct possibility of Man for some of us OEC/TE's) is a transitional, since it is simply a part of the ongoing changes effecting the population group to which it belongs. [remember, evolutionary changes NEVER happen to individual creatures, but to population groups, gene pools]. At every stage of development, every creature is fully functional and self-realized and would take great offense at being labeled "half-way" between two other "real" species (assuming they were capable of taking offense!). The arm to wing idea for example. It is not an arm, then something useless in between, then a wing. When evolutionary changes begin with the group that has arms, causing incremental changes, this change does not have "wing" as its goal. This is hindsight. The incremental changes are each useful in themselves, or they would not happen. Eventually, all these minute, incremental changes may add up to a wing at some point, and if that result is highly efficient, it will stay that way for a long time. Or, better said, the degree to which a feature is efficient in a given environment, the more likely it will be retained by the population group for a longer time. Those features which are not very efficient (maybe due to environmental changes, etc) are under more pressure to change, and the mutations which allow for such change in a beneficial direction will dominate the reproduction processes of the group, leading to change.

This is also why you see some species evolving more rapidly during certain periods, and more slowly during others. When the need to adapt creates greater pressures, evolutionary processes take place at a faster pace (or the creature becomes extinct). Or, should I say, during certain periods those population groups which *do* evolve more rapidly will survive, the others will not.


As for giraffes: If a horse could simply will its neck to grow over the years, how would that desire find itself in the genetic code to produce offspring with the fruit of that desire?

But again, this is not how evolution works. A horse (even though a giraffe is not a descendent of a horse) could not "will" anything to happen. If a creature has a short neck, and the food sources are more plentiful higher up, those with slightly longer necks in a population group will tend to live longer, reproduce more, thus creating more of the same: creatures with slightly longer necks. This continues, with the longer necked among the group being more successful. Necks within the population group continue to get, on average, longer and longer . . . until an efficiency/form balance is reached.

Keep in mind that all the leading Creationist groups agree that these processes take place, and agree that this is why we have such varieties of designs so well suited to the environment. The ONLY difference is that they argue that these changes simply could not continue to the point that the result is a population group that is a different "Kind". I say "why not? Where is the brake in the process that would prevent a group from evolving so much that we would have to consider it a different Kind?"

Another important point is that, while the Creation Scientists acknowledge that these processes take place and explain the diversity we see (within species at least), they have not explained how these changes could have taken place SO dramatically fast from the Ark to today. If evolutionary processes *could* take place that fast (fast enough to creat the bazillions of different varieties of just about everything on earth), then we would see these same "micro-evolutionary" changes going on before our eyes, within a given lifetime. But we don't. Creationists argue out of both sides of their mouth here. They say "we have no examples of macro-evolutionary changes happen before our eyes", but they then fail to explain why we are not seeing micro-evolutionary changes happening in relatively short periods all over the place (which would be the case if their "hyper-evolution" concept were true)! We do have a number of examples of observable evolutionary change, but these are fairly rare precisely BECAUSE it takes so much time.


What's wrong with God simply creating the giraffe as is? Doesn't He get any credit for designing the creature as it stands without being subject to man's ideas?

This begs the question of whether the process of evolution is, itself, God’s idea. But the simple answer is that, of course, God could have zapped every particular species into existence exactly as we see it today. But we know that did not happen. Even Creation Scientists agree that this did not happen. While they say that God zapped each "Kind" into existence, they concede that the particular diversity we see today, with the myriad variations so specifically based on the needs of the particular environment, is due to this natural selection process. The very same natural selection process that evolutionists describe. They just call it "micro-evolution", and say it is limited to changes within certain "Kinds", but they have a great deal of difficulty in explaining exactly WHY it would be limited in some way.

We should nor strive to bring God into our world, but rather seek to understand, with a modicum of humility that we are part of His.

No one is striving to bring God into *our* world. We are looking at God’s Creation, which is definitely God’s World. Were we trying to bring God into our world when we discovered that the Earth revolved around the sun, which was entirely contradictory to the Church’s interpretation of Scripture? No, of course not. It is just that during the course of our study of God’s Creation we happened to discover that our interpretation of God’s Word was incorrect.

The same is happening with origins, and most understand that. I am sure there were a few "geocentrist" holdouts long into the modern times, who believed that all the other Christians had "given in" to the secular scientists and abandoned the plain reading of Scripture when they recognized heliocentrism. In fact, I know this is true, because I remember actually reading some of the small "tracts" my dad (an Assembly of God minister) had around the Church. One said geocentrism was the correct and plain reading of Scripture and that the world had been duped. These were published in the mid-sixties (although I didn’t read them until the mid-seventies).


His word is His means of communicate to us, why not believe it?

I do.

 
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Buck72

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Vance, your reply was the best I've seen yet. Your manner and tone were within the pure intent of this forum and I applaud you for taking the time to delve into the TE background a bit more.

I do have a limited (total) understanding of TE, for the fact that most evolutionists I've encountered were those who exclude any possibility of God, other than an undefined, abstract God (see verse below).

The bulk of my understanding of evolution comes from 18 years of formal education in public schools and universities, as well as from just about any program or periodical about the origins of life, and the modern 'struggle' for survival. I'm critical of evolution because of many reasons supplemental to plain reading of the word (especially the Flood), but that there are so many other options that make real, comprehensive, solid sense. The fact that there are MANY views, opinions, theories, and perspectives that drive evolutionists to ceaselessly debate each other with their myriad of possbilities makes it difficult for someone with a countering viewpoint to contend with specifics. There are many in the evolutionary worldview that really do believe (and teach) that all life evolved from primordial soup (microbials from apparent amino acid compounds washed of the cooling rocks for millions of years) and eventually through a mysterious, slow, gradual, inexplicable mechanism became the breathtaking complexity of organic life that we see today. That is the basic evolutionary process I have been addressing, simply that which we have all been exposed to, but as you've expressed not nessecarily subscribe to.

One thing I wish to close with this evening:

A true Christian knows his/her own worthlessness, and is united in fellowship with other Christians in celebration of the immeasurable worth, esteem, and value placed upon them by the Redemption of Christ. Our interactions are seasoned with humility, love, and mutual respect. Many in here prefer slander, spite, and accusations of lying. While I am by no means without fault, I have enjoyed this forum as an opporunity to grow, I hope the same thing for you guys as well.

Here's the verse I mentioned above:

Act 17:23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Act 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
 
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Vance

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Buck72 said:
Vance, your reply was the best I've seen yet. Your manner and tone were within the pure intent of this forum and I applaud you for taking the time to delve into the TE background a bit more.

I do have a limited (total) understanding of TE, for the fact that most evolutionists I've encountered were those who exclude any possibility of God, other than an undefined, abstract God (see verse below).

The bulk of my understanding of evolution comes from 18 years of formal education in public schools and universities, as well as from just about any program or periodical about the origins of life, and the modern 'struggle' for survival. I'm critical of evolution because of many reasons supplemental to plain reading of the word (especially the Flood), but that there are so many other options that make real, comprehensive, solid sense. The fact that there are MANY views, opinions, theories, and perspectives that drive evolutionists to ceaselessly debate each other with their myriad of possbilities makes it difficult for someone with a countering viewpoint to contend with specifics. There are many in the evolutionary worldview that really do believe (and teach) that all life evolved from primordial soup (microbials from apparent amino acid compounds washed of the cooling rocks for millions of years) and eventually through a mysterious, slow, gradual, inexplicable mechanism became the breathtaking complexity of organic life that we see today. That is the basic evolutionary process I have been addressing, simply that which we have all been exposed to, but as you've expressed not nessecarily subscribe to.
First of all, I am glad that my post was at least coherent, since this is a complex subject. Now, to adress a few points you raise:

1. You are right, there are many people who are atheists or "vague" theists, and these people also do believe in evolution. But this is not to say that evolution in any way requires such a belief system (or non-belief system, as the case may be). People today fall all over the spectrum when it comes to belief in God, as you well know, and many who believe VERY much as you do regarding God and Christianity also believe in evolution and an old earth. On the other hand, just as you find many in Christianity in general who don't hold the Scripture in as high esteem as you and I do, you will find such people in the OEC/TE camp as well.

2. Honestly, I don't seen "many other options that make real, comprehensive, solid sense" out there. I have thoroughly reviewed the "work-aroud" concepts of the leading Creation Scientists, and they simply don't work, either scientifically or logically. Most are so speculative and based on such unsound science that they are more of an embarrassment to Christianity than a benefit. But this is what you get when you start with a presumption of "no macro-evolution and a young earth" and then go out and LOOK for evidence to support this idea. You end up grasping at weak straws and creating theories with as much substance as crop-circles and alien abdubtions.

3. Yes, the details of exactly how evolution works in specific areas is still being worked out and the fact that these debates take place is strong evidence of how and why the scientific process so often comes to such solid results. But the basic concepts of evolution is so widely accepted and verified, that even Creation Scientists have acknowledged (after years of denial) that these basic concepts are true. In fact, the concepts are so reliable that they form the basis of a LOT of other research in other fields which have led to practical and useful results.

4. The concepts of how life began is still open for debate, and it IS debated widely. I am not sure we will ever know exactly how God initiated the first life, and for me it really doesn't matter in the big picture. The primordial soup concept is just a theory, although a widely accepted one, and one that is still debated and should, of course, be described as such whenever presented. But again, it would not matter for me at all if God started life on this planet in such a way. God can do it however He wanted, who am I to say that it seems odd or hard to believe.

Again, to me there is MUCH more danger in teaching that science and Scripture are absolutely and necessarily incompatible than any specific *scientific* teaching out there today. Better to say to our youth and those seeking to know about the Christian perspective on origins:

"What Scripture tells us without doubt is that God created it all and is in control of it all. While some believe that Genesis describes the how He created it in a literal fashion, which is at odds with modern scientific teaching, other Christians believe that there is no such conflict and that all science can ultimately do is explain to us HOW God very likely accomplished His creation."

I can't see how this would NOT be the better approach.
 
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