The question cessationists must answer.

[Francis Drake]

The OT believers did not have the Holy Spirit as we do now under NC...

So OT believers couldn't have the Holy Spirit. Really?

Luke11v11And which father among you, if the son will ask for a fish, and instead of a fish, will give to him a serpent? 12Or also if he will ask for an egg, will he give to him a scorpion? 13Therefore if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father who is in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!”

This promise was given prior to the cross. Anyone asking the Father for the Holy Spirit would receive it right then and there.
Which one of you is lying, Jesus or you?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So OT believers couldn't have the Holy Spirit. Really?

Luke11v11And which father among you, if the son will ask for a fish, and instead of a fish, will give to him a serpent? 12Or also if he will ask for an egg, will he give to him a scorpion? 13Therefore if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father who is in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!”

This promise was given prior to the cross. Anyone asking the Father for the Holy Spirit would receive it right then and there.
Which one of you is lying, Jesus or you?

The promise was given before the cross.

But it is at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

Jesus even said that the Holy Spirit would not come until after His death.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The promise was given before the cross.

But it is at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

Jesus even said that the Holy Spirit would not come until after His death.

Jesus told His own Apostles that the Spirit was with them, but would soon be in them!

 

[Francis Drake]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens to all Christians, as that happens when converted. as He places us then into Jesus and His Body. NOT the Charismatic viewpoint of a second act of grace, evidenced by speaking in other tongues!

Scripture is stacked against you. Certainly all Christians have the seed of the Holy Spirit within their spirit, otherwise they would be spiritually dead. But baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit is an experience of a very different order and for a different purpose.

I've met many ex cessationists who believed your false teaching, my wife being one of them. Then at a later stage after crying out to the Lord were suddenly baptised in the Holy Spirit. Realising immediately how much they'd been lied to by their faithless leaders, and deprived of their inheritance.

Although it may happen simultaneously, scripture shows that immersion or the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born of the Spirit.
Scripture also shows that being filled happens repeatedly to those who need or seek more of the Lord.

We know Peter and these people had already been filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, yet here they are filled again.
Acts4v 31And they having prayed, the place in which they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness.

We see Paul being initially filled with the Holy Spirit here.
Acts9v17And Ananias went away and entered into the house; and having laid the hands upon him, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, the One having appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me that you may see again and be filled of the Holy Spirit.”
And the filled again here-
Acts13v9But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,

And if all Christians are already filled with the Holy Spirit, then Paul's command here is a complete waste of breath.-
Eph5v18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

And of course the most notable example of someone being filled with the Holy Spirit as a second experience.-
Luke3v22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus lived 30 years as the genuine Son of God, but was not filled or empowered by the Holy Spirit till his baptism. ie. a second experience.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture is stacked against you. Certainly all Christians have the seed of the Holy Spirit within their spirit, otherwise they would be spiritually dead. But baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit is an experience of a very different order and for a different purpose.

I've met many ex cessationists who believed your false teaching, my wife being one of them. Then at a later stage after crying out to the Lord were suddenly baptised in the Holy Spirit. Realising immediately how much they'd been lied to by their faithless leaders, and deprived of their inheritance.

Although it may happen simultaneously, scripture shows that immersion or the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born of the Spirit.
Scripture also shows that being filled happens repeatedly to those who need or seek more of the Lord.

We know Peter and these people had already been filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, yet here they are filled again.
Acts4v 31And they having prayed, the place in which they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness.

We see Paul being initially filled with the Holy Spirit here.
Acts9v17And Ananias went away and entered into the house; and having laid the hands upon him, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, the One having appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me that you may see again and be filled of the Holy Spirit.”
And the filled again here-
Acts13v9But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,

And if all Christians are already filled with the Holy Spirit, then Paul's command here is a complete waste of breath.-
Eph5v18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

And of course the most notable example of someone being filled with the Holy Spirit as a second experience.-
Luke3v22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus lived 30 years as the genuine Son of God, but was not filled or empowered by the Holy Spirit till his baptism. ie. a second experience.

If Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, I’m not sure anything was held back from Him.

That Jesus would need to be filled with the Holy Spirit is borderline blasphemous, IMHO.

 

[Francis Drake]

No Christian, as in having been saved by Jesus and now filled with/by the Holy Spirit described in scriptures as needing to have a demon driven out of them, and doctrines of demons are false teachings, such as among Charismatic chaos!

I have given loads of examples that disprove your falsehood, but you have no interest in scripture unless you can twist.
Nevertheless here's an example of a believer getting himself demonised by entering into deception..

Acts5v1Now a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a property, 2and he kept back from the proceeds, also the wife being aware of it, and having brought a certain portion, he laid it at the feet of the apostles.
3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back from the proceeds of the land?

And before you try and claim that Ananias and his wife were not believers, the context in the previous verses do not allow that.
And if they were unbelievers, why would the Lord kill these two alone and not kill all the other unbelievers who wanted to kill the saints.

 

[Francis Drake]

The viewpoint that the vast majority of Christians held until past Century!

Ah, now I understand, you feel safe following the crowd through the wide gate.

Matt7v13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Personally I've always stuck to the narrow gateway, even though few use it.​

 

[Francis Drake]

try the Spirits, as not all who claim to be from God and speaking for Him actual really are!

You have spent your whole time on this thread condemning those who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Look at the gifts of the Spirit in the scriptures below, you will see that the gift of discerning of spirits is smack between the other gifts you condemn.

1Cor12v10-
and to another working of miracles,
and to another prophecy,
and to another distinguishing of spirits,
and to another various kinds of tongues,
and to another interpretation of tongues.​

For any Cessationists to pretend he has discernment of spirits, whilst rejecting the gifts of the Spirit, is rank hypocrisy and spiritually impossible!

All you have is your dead intellect to guide you, and that will never reveal the truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You have spent your whole time on this thread condemning those who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Look at the gifts of the Spirit in the scriptures below, you will see that the gift of discerning of spirits is smack between the other gifts you condemn.

1Cor12v10-
and to another working of miracles,
and to another prophecy,
and to another distinguishing of spirits,
and to another various kinds of tongues,
and to another interpretation of tongues.​

For any Cessationists to pretend he has discernment of spirits, whilst rejecting the gifts of the Spirit, is rank hypocrisy and spiritually impossible!

All you have is your dead intellect to guide you, and that will never reveal the truth.

No one in their right mind would “condemn” anything God chooses to give us.

Maybe you should change your wording to mean the belief that certain gifts have ceased.

That is MUCH less argumentative and accusatory.

 

[Francis Drake]

Those who never heard of Jesus were not even saved yet though, and Paul received the Holy Spirit when jesus saved Him...

Foolish nonsense.
All OT believers including the disciples etc, were sons of their Heavenly Father. Scripture is full of evidence from end to end to prove that. And Jesus goes to great pains to make that clear.

They were all redeemed by Christ's blood, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

 

[Francis Drake]

Signs and wonders can be counterfeited , but the fruit of the Holy spirit cannot be, and many who claim this for today lack much in way of fruit it seems!

Boasting that other people's fruits are not as good as yours!
Yeah, great testimony Lol.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Foolish nonsense.
All OT believers including the disciples etc, were sons of their Heavenly Father. Scripture is full of evidence from end to end to prove that. And Jesus goes to great pains to make that clear.

They were all redeemed by Christ's blood, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

Jesus death was at a point in time for us as humans and separates the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

God is not held to time or within boundaries of time, but we humans are.

If Jesus blood was active within the Old Covenant times, why did God have the Levitical priesthood making animal sacrifices for temporary atonement over and over and over?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Boasting that other people's fruits are not as good as yours!
Yeah, great testimony Lol.

Every post is a testing either good or bad.

 

[Francis Drake]

The promise was given before the cross.

But it is at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

Jesus even said that the Holy Spirit would not come until after His death.

So those who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the OT were just faking it then?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So those who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the OT were just faking it then?

The Holy Spirit was definitely in the Old Testament, but any infilling was temporary. It was not what we have now in the New Covenant, a permanent indwelling.

I believe that the major people in the Old Testament books had the Holy Spirit a lot.

It would be nice if you were less accusatory in your post and asked for confirmation on a belief so the person can state what they actually believe.

It helps with the bearing of false witness against others. It’s really unpleasant to read your posts.

 

[Francis Drake]

If Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, I’m not sure anything was held back from Him.

If you're not sure what was held back then go and read the accounts of his baptism by John. It's very clear there.

That Jesus would need to be filled with the Holy Spirit is borderline blasphemous, IMHO.

Blasphemy or not, I repeat, Jesus needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit to fulfil his ministry.

Jesus did not come as God, but laid aside his majesty in order to walk as an ordinary man. That's why he constantly referred to himself as the "Son of man!"

He did everything in his ministry, using the same Holy Spirit power that is available to the rest of us. That's why he also said, "Greater than this shall you do."

And that is why the cessationist doctrine is so iniquitous, robbing the sons of God of their calling and power.
Cessationists are doing what Satan did to Adam.
​

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you're not sure what was held back then go and read the accounts of his baptism by John. It's very clear there.

What is clear in scripture was John the Baptist was told by God that he would see the Messiah before his death and God would identify to John who it was.

It was John who saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove by Jesus. This fits perfectly with the promise to John that he would see the Messiah and receive a sign from God identifying Him.

Now, I don’t make the assumption that Jesus could not fully act as God before that. As Jesus said to Satan, He ‘could’ have called legions of angels to Him. Did He? No.

What Christ was able to do vs what Christ chose to do are two different things.

So no, I don’t hold that Christ was unable to do anything or even needed to receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was there, but I’m not sure in what capacity It was in whatever capacity God willed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Blasphemy or not, I repeat, Jesus needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit to fulfil his ministry.

Jesus did not come as God, but laid aside his majesty in order to walk as an ordinary man. That's why he constantly referred to himself as the "Son of man!​

It is very clear in scripture that Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man. Somehow you are limiting Jesus’ God part to only part of His life.

I just don’t add to God’s Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And that is why the cessationist doctrine is so iniquitous, robbing the sons of God of their calling and power.
Cessationists are doing what Satan did to Adam.
​

Since all these gifts are given BY the Holy Spirit TO WHOM the Holy Spirit chooses.

I think you need to go have a long talk with God and tell Him what to do.

Railing and accusations against the brethren is not edifying.

 

[swordsman1]

Jesus did not come as God, but laid aside his majesty in order to walk as an ordinary man. That's why he constantly referred to himself as the "Son of man!"

You have a heretical view of Christ. Jesus did not give up his divinity and become an ordinary man. While he walked on earth He was fully God and fully man. How could he have the authority to forgive people's sins if he wasn't God (Mark 2:5)? The Jews knew exactly what he was claiming: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (v7). If Jesus was nothing but a mere man then all the teaching he gave throughout his ministry would have no authority. If Jesus was nothing but a man how could he make the claims: “before Abraham was born, I am!” and "I and the Father are one.”? And when he died on the Cross, if he died just as a human being, his death would not have been able to atone for the sins of others. Only an infinite sacrifice could do that. It was God's blood that was shed (Acts 20:28), not just a human's. Otherwise we would all be going to Hell.