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Righttruth

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Well sorry, but I'm not replying to you any more.
I've said, several times, that you have no reason to call praying in tongues "gibberish", yet you persist in doing so. I don't know if you find it amusing, but to me it smacks of arrogance.

Then again, I seem to remember from other threads that you doubt the Trinity, or some other major Christian doctrine. If it is the case that you don't believe in the presence, nature or work of the Spirit, it's not surprising that you won't understand the gifts that he gives.

Gibberish talk is not a spiritual gift. Please read Paul again.

1 Timothy 6
3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
 
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Billy Evmur

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No. But I have heard of different interpretations for the same gibberish talk!

The gifts are foolishness to the natural man, we know that.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Many claim to be apostles today but are not apostles. Also, rich preachers are preaching healing and prosperity, and they live in mansions while people starve and struggle to live. Im not seeing any love in that prosperity gospel, and love is the greatest gift. By love, not miracles, men will know we are the disciples of Christ.

If they lived in shacks you'd say they were hypocrites
 
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Francis Drake

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Oh but some gifts clearly have ceased. In fact there are some that I don't think even you can deny....
Absolutely not, nor have you ever shown one jot from scripture that they have ceased.
Apostleship is described as the first and foremost gift. Unless you are an NAR heretic and think that apostles exist today who exert as much authority on the church as the 1st century apostles, then you must concede the gift of apostleship as it existed in the 1st century has ceased.
I've no clue what NAR means.
But absolutely yes, apostles as one of the fivefold ministries to the church, do and must exist today, despite attempts by cessationists to eradicate them.
I note that like all spinners of fake news, twice you slyly add your own unscriptural caveat to the description of apostleship, ie. "as it existed in the 1st century".
Apostles do not have to exactly replicate what happened in the first century to be apostles, any more than pastors, evangelists, or teachers do.
Also scripture writing is a form of prophecy (2 Peter 1:20-21). So unless you think that scripture is still being written today then must concede that form of prophecy has ceased.
Again more irrelevant foolery to deflect away from your paucity of evidence. Not one person defending the gifts has claimed they are adding to the canon of scripture.
 
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Francis Drake

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So even you are a cessationist to a certain degree and "guilty of ripping the limbs from Christ himself".
Utterly wrong as I repudiate Cessationism in whatever form it takes.
And unlike you, I desire every last gift, even yours, to be released in the body of Christ.

Despite the abundance of scriptural evidence against it, you Cessationists are utterly clueless to the destruction you have wrought in Christ's body. This destruction is easily demonstrated when your theology is compared with what Paul teaches below.

In 1Cor12, Paul describes how all the gifts are absolutely essential for Christ's body to function on earth, and how destructive it would be if any were missing.
Wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues, interpretation.
He then states that all the above gifts represent different members of Christ's body on earth.
12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ......14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
The above verses are powerful and self explanatory, yet cessationists deny every gift in the body except their own theological authority.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!”
Guilty: Cessationists have done everything possible to exclude the other limbs and organs from any function in the body.
Guilty: Cessationists insist the body is made up of their own kind.
Guilty: Cessationists have claimed total headship of the body of Christ by power of their theology alone.
Guilty: Cessationism, by condemning the gifts of the Holy Spirit today is entirely responsible for ripping limbs out of Christ's body.

Every one of the above points is regularly seen in your posts and that of all the other Cessationists in this thread.

As someone who believes in the ministry of the Holy Spirit today, I highly value teaching as one among several ministry gifts to the body.
However, what we see today is not the gift of teaching at work. Instead that title has been hijacked by Pharisees who want to prevent any other gift or ministry threaten their supremacy over Christ himself or over his body.
 
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swordsman1

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The point is that the word wasn't only used to mean the 12 disciples or those whose writings were included in the canon of scripture. The word was used more broadly.

Just because the Greek work apostolos had another rarely used meaning, doesn't mean the same meaning translates to the English word apostle. The other meaning of the Greek word is 'messenger' (and is always translated as 'messenger' in English), not church planter. So by your logic a postman would be called an apostle, but not a church planter.
 
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swordsman1

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It's not clear in Acts 2 whether the disciples were speaking in languages they didn't know or those present simply heard what was said in their own languages.

Acts 2:6 "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."
 
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swordsman1

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Not EVERY time, no.
It means "sent" and is applied to those who are sent by God. Most of the time it does refer to the 12, yes. But I believe that it is used occasionally in reference to the OT prophets - and once in relation to ALL believers.

In the NASB the word 'apostle' or 'apostles' appears 79 times. In every one of those it is referring to THE Apostles, apart from once where it refers false apostles, and once where it refers to Christ. The word never refers to prophets, or any other believer.
 
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Deborah D

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Acts 2:6 "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."
I know, Swordsman, I've read that verse MANY times. It depends on which way you look at it.

Each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language...or the way you have it bolded.

It really doesn't matter to me HOW God did it because He accomplished His goal....
 
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Deborah D

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Just because the Greek work apostolos had another rarely used meaning, doesn't mean the same meaning translates to the English word apostle. The other meaning of the Greek word is 'messenger' (and is always translated as 'messenger' in English), not church planter. So by your logic a postman would be called an apostle, but not a church planter.

Whatever, SM, I'm tired of arguing about it and just want to have a restful Lord's Day. You have a blessed one too!
 
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swordsman1

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I've no clue what NAR means.

The New Apostolic Reformation is a dangerous heretical group founded by C Peter Wagner that believes the gift of apostle has been restored and they have the same authority in the church today as the 1st century apostles.

What is the New Apostolic Reformation?

But absolutely yes, apostles as one of the fivefold ministries to the church, do and must exist today, despite attempts by cessationists to eradicate them.

Apostles cannot exist today. Scripture lays down the qualification for being an apostle:

1. They had to have been eye-witnesses of Christ's resurrection (Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor 9:1). And Paul said he was the last person to see the resurrected Christ (1 Cor 15:8).

2. As apostles of Christ they had to have been specifically appointed by Christ.

3. They had the 'marks of an apostle' - being able to perform miracles (2 Cor 12:12).​

Apostles were the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). Is the foundation still being laid today?

After Paul the apostles never designated successors. When the apostle James was killed in Act 12:1-2, why wasn't he replaced like Judas was? There is no hint in scripture that any further apostles were to be expected.

I have uploaded an excerpt about apostles by Wayne Grudem, the most respected charismatic theologian today. It will help you to understand why this particular gift no longer exists.

I note that like all spinners of fake news, twice you slyly add your own unscriptural caveat to the description of apostleship, ie. "as it existed in the 1st century".
Apostles do not have to exactly replicate what happened in the first century to be apostles, any more than pastors, evangelists, or teachers do.

So you agree with me. Apostles, of the type that existed in the 1st century, have ceased. (not that there is any other type).

Not one person defending the gifts has claimed they are adding to the canon of scripture.

Exactly. So you must concede that particular form of prophecy has ceased.

To a certain degree you are a cessationist.
 

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swordsman1

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I know, Swordsman, I've read that verse MANY times. It depends on which way you look at it.

Each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language...or the way you have it bolded.

It really doesn't matter to me HOW God did it because He accomplished His goal....

The part I bolded tells us was exactly what the foreigners were hearing.

Acts 2:6 "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."
 
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Strong in Him

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In the NASB the word 'apostle' or 'apostles' appears 79 times. In every one of those it is referring to THE Apostles, apart from once where it refers false apostles, and once where it refers to Christ. The word never refers to prophets, or any other believer.

Yes but what does it say in the Greek?
I heard John Stott teaching on this and he said that on one occasion the word is used to refer to ALL believers - a few other times it refers to those who were sent, even Jesus. I'd trust his knowledge of theology and Greek any day.

I'll look out my interlinear Greek NT and let you know.
 
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Anto9us

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There are two sub-forums here at CF which should be considered SAFE HOUSES for charismatics; where Cessationists should not debate that tongues have ceased. I just wanted to point this out so charismatics know they have places to post free from the Cessationists' jive that the Gifts have ceased.

Equipping the Saints/Spiritual Growth/Spiritual Gifts/Sign Gifts

Sign Gifts


Congregation/Faith Groups/Spirit-Filled/Charismatic

Spirit-Filled / Charismatic


This thread, now 28 pages long, was one that from the OP encouraged debate.

But for those sick of the theology of Cessationists; there are those two places to discuss the gifts in the absence of the naysayers.
 
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swordsman1

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I heard John Stott teaching on this and he said that on one occasion the word is used to refer to ALL believers - a few other times it refers to those who were sent, even Jesus. I'd trust his knowledge of theology and Greek any day.

Yes I agree, you can't go wrong with John Stott. This is what John Stott says about apostles.

John Stott - The Message of Acts

b. The foundation ministry of the apostles

We have already noted that the ascension was the watershed between the two phases earthly and heavenly of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Now we need to note that he was not taken up to heaven, until after he had given instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. This is clearly emphasized in the Greek sentence, which reads literally: 'until the day when, having instructed his chosen apostles through the Holy Spirit, he was taken up.' Thus, before ending his personal ministry on earth, Jesus deliberately made provision for its continuance, still on earth (through the apostles) but from heaven (through the Holy Spirit). Because the apostles occupied a unique position, they also received a unique equipment. Luke outlines four stages:

(i) Jesus chose them
They were the apostles he had chosen (2). Luke has used the same verb ekle gomai in his account of Jesus' calling and choice of the Twelve, 'whom he also designated apostles', and he is about to use it again when two men are proposed to fill the vacancy left by Judas and the believers pray 'Lord, ... show us which of these two you have chosen. Significantly, the same verb is also used later in connection with Paul. The risen Lord describes him to Ananias as 'my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles ...' (9:15), and Ananias conveys this message to Paul: "The God of our fathers has chosen you ... You will be his witness ...' (22:14-15). It is thus emphasized that all the apostles (the Twelve, Matthias and Paul) were neither self-appointed, nor appointed by any human being, committee, synod or church, but were directly and personally chosen and appointed by Jesus Christ himself.

(ii) Jesus showed himself to them
The other evangelists have indicated that Jesus appointed the Twelve that they might be with him and so be uniquely qualified to bear witness to him. 43 The foundation witnesses had to be eyewitnesses. Judas' successor, Peter said, had to be someone who had been with the Twelve the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us' (1:21-22). And in particular he must be a witness with us of his resurrection (1:22, cf. 10:41). So, after his suffering, the risen Lord showed himself to these men (3). Luke stresses this. Jesus gave them many convincing proofs (tekmērion is a 'convincing, decisive proof BAGD) that he was alive, which continued over a period of forty days. During this time he appeared to them becoming visible), spoke about the kingdom of God (so that they heard as well as saw him) and on one occasion at least was eating with them, which indicates that he was no ghost, but could be touched (10:41). He thus presented himself to their senses: their eyes, ears and hands. Such an objective experience of the risen Lord was an indispensable qualification of an apostle, which explains why Paul could be one and James and why there have been no comparable apostles since and can be none today.

(iii) Jesus commanded or commissioned them
In addition to speaking to them about the kingdom of God (3) and the Holy Spirit (4-5), which we shall consider further in the next chapter, he gave them certain instructions through the Holy Spirit (who inspired all his teaching. What were these instructions? It is interesting that the Bezan or Western text answers this question by adding the apostles whom he had chosen and commanded to preach the gospel'. If this is correct, then the risen Lord's instruction was none other than his great commission, which Luke has already recorded at the end of his gospel in terms of preaching repentance and forgiveness in his name to all nations. Do and which Jesus will soon repeat in terms of being his witnesses to the ends of the earth (1:8). This, then, adds a further feature to the portrait of an apostle. Apostolos was an envoy, delegate or ambassador, sent out with a message and carrying the authority of the sender. Thus Jesus chose his apostles, and showed himself to them after the resurrection, as preliminaries to sending them out to preach and teach in his name

(iv) Jesus promised them the Holy Spirit
In the Upper Room, according to John, Jesus had already promised the apostles that the Spirit of truth would both remind them of what he had taught them 21 and supplement it with what he had not been able to teach them. 22 Now Jesus commands them to wait in Jerusalem until the promised gift has been received (4). It was his Father's promise (4a, presumably through such Old Testament prophecies as Joel 2:28ff., Is. 32:15 and Ezk. 36:27), his own (since Jesus had himself repeated it during his ministry, 4b), and John the Baptist's, who had called the 'gift' or 'promise' a 'baptism' (5). Jesus now echoes John's words and adds that the thrice-repeated promise (“the promised Holy Spirit', 2:33) is to be fulfilled in a few days. So they must wait. Not till God has fulfilled his promise and they have been 'clothed with power from on high', can they fulfil their commission.

Here, then, was the fourfold equipment of the apostles of Christ. Of course in a secondary sense all the disciples of Jesus can claim that he has chosen us, revealed himself to us, commissioned us as his witnesses, and both promised and given us his Spirit. Nevertheless, it is not to these general privileges that Luke is referring here, but to the special qualifications of an apostle—a personal appointment as an apostle by Jesus, an eyewitness experience of the historical Jesus, an authorizing and commissioning by Jesus to speak in his name, and the empowering Spirit of Jesus to inspire their teaching. It was primarily these uniquely qualified men through whom Jesus continued to do and to teach', and to whom Luke intends to introduce us in the Acts.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes I agree, you can't go wrong with John Stott. This is what John Stott says about apostles.

I have read your post, just not quoted all of it.

I do agree, actually, that there are no apostles today; no one who was personally taught by Jesus or has the authority that the 12, and Paul, had.
I was just trying to say that the word apostle is used a number of times in Scripture and can refer to anyone who is sent by God. Sorry if I sounded a bit dogmatic, but that is all that I meant.
In that sense, I would say that we all have the calling of apostle, but not the NT status.
 
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W2L

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I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.
So you are saying that because im not an apostle i cant judge whether or not someone else is an apostle?
 
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Deborah D

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The part I bolded tells us was exactly what the foreigners were hearing.

Acts 2:6 "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."
Yeah, thanks for the blessings from you! I appreciate it.
 
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