The question cessationists must answer.

[Dave L]

I agree, but a caveat. God can do whatever he wants, and my understanding is necessarily short. This (cessationism) is not a basic tenet, to me. However, there are some that are more basic, such as the fact that the Word of God can no more be added to, etc. Likewise, there is no pronouncement by God through man that can trump the Word of God. The common phrase for this is, "No new revelation", and that I agree with.

However, God most definitely does open eyes, give wisdom, even speak wisdom beyond the understanding of the speaker (or at least, give the listener a different take on what the speaker said, than what the speaker intended.)

I also do not believe that miracles have ceased. I do think that most, maybe all, on TV and big audiences are quacks. But I have myself much to thank God for along the lines of "miracle".

God can indeed do whatever he wants, and doesn't have to line up with my claims. He owes me nothing.

But sola scriptura is trustworthy. And going against what it clearly says is not wise.

 

[Francis Drake]

God only speaks through his written word.

Completely erroneous.

You can spot false prophets if you know what the word says. Without it, you are a sitting duck.

Even with your scriptures, people like you are sitting ducks for Satan!
If scripture were such a brilliant test of prophecy, it should first be able to prove that by testing itself.
ie. There should be only one interpretation of what scripture says, instead of the many thousands of competing interpretations that you theologians invent.

So, how about you "theologians" getting your own house in order before attacking the prophetic ministry with constant accusations of false prophecy!

 

[YeshuaFan]

But sola scriptura is trustworthy. And going against what it clearly says is not wise.

Especially when God Himself said that the purpose of the sign gifts was for a specific time!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Completely erroneous.

Even with your scriptures, people like you are sitting ducks for Satan!
If scripture were such a brilliant test of prophecy, it should first be able to prove that by testing itself.
ie. There should be only one interpretation of what scripture says, instead of the many thousands of competing interpretations that you theologians invent.

So, how about you "theologians" getting your own house in order before attacking the prophetic ministry with constant accusations of false prophecy!

God ONLY infallible source of revelation would be the Scriptures, and He stopped giving forth any additional revelation after Revelation itself!
And there is no more prophecy given to us other than what was once and for all given to us in the written word!

 

[Dave L]

Completely erroneous.

Even with your scriptures, people like you are sitting ducks for Satan!
If scripture were such a brilliant test of prophecy, it should first be able to prove that by testing itself.
ie. There should be only one interpretation of what scripture says, instead of the many thousands of competing interpretations that you theologians invent.

So, how about you "theologians" getting your own house in order before attacking the prophetic ministry with constant accusations of false prophecy!

Those hearing voices in their head are the sitting ducks.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Those hearing voices in their head are the sitting ducks.

Or those who think God still has modern day Apostles and prophets running around!

 

[Francis Drake]

How can any one be sure that what they say or think is from the Holy Spirit as a spiritual gift rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?

Its called discernment.
All believers need to ask the Lord for discernment and for wisdom, otherwise we are left with human interpretation of what the Lord is saying through the gifts or through the bible.

So the same judgement and criticism you throw at prophecy, needs also to be thrown at your bible teachers.

So to help, I'm playing back your own words with the appropriate modification.
How can any one be sure that what they teach or think is from the bible is true rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?

In reality, most people just swallow, hook, line and sinker, everything their pastor says. Because he is the pastor, they just suckle from him with no thought or discernment whatsoever.
If that were not the case, there would be little or no debate on this forum. We would simply read scripture and all agree on what it says. Lol

 

[Francis Drake]

Those hearing voices in their head are the sitting ducks.

Here we have someone who vehemently denies that the Lord can speak to him, yet proudly acts as arbiter of that Lord's opinion.

I'd rather seek the Lord himself, than listen to a man who denies hearing him.

 

[Dave L]

Here we have someone who vehemently denies that the Lord can speak to him, yet proudly acts as arbiter of that Lord's opinion.

I'd rather seek the Lord himself, than listen to a man who denies hearing him.

Go with the bible. Don't listen to those voices in your head.

 

[Francis Drake]

Especially when God Himself said that the purpose of the sign gifts was for a specific time!

ie. The last days, which we are still in.

 

[Francis Drake]

Go with the bible. Don't listen to those voices in your head.

Haha, as I said, you theologians cannot make your own minds up about what the bible says, so get your own house in order before tossing criticism at the prophetic ministry.

 

[GingerBeer]

Its called discernment.
All believers need to ask the Lord for discernment and for wisdom, otherwise we are left with human interpretation of what the Lord is saying through the gifts or through the bible.

So the same judgement and criticism you throw at prophecy

I am sure I asked a question without passing judgement or offering criticism but I suppose you read it as a criticism that stung something tender so your post is constructed as if my question was a judgement against something and a criticism that must be answered by you. What I wrote is

How can any one be sure that what they say or think is from the Holy Spirit as a spiritual gift rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?​

, needs also to be thrown at your bible teachers.

They must be very wicked teachers, I think, to need things throwing at them.

So to help, I'm playing back your own words with the appropriate modification.
How can any one be sure that what they teach or think is from the bible is true rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?

You appear to need a revised version of my question as a straw man for you to attack. The added words that you kindly inserted in red text and the words that you deleted without showing that you deleted them (I think that strikethrough works well for showing unwanted and deleted words like this). I guess the editing you did could be shown this way:

How can any one be sure that what they say teach or think is from the Holy Spirit as a spiritual gift the bible rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience? ​

The answer is that what is written in the bible can be checked, like fact checking that you see on TV about politicians making claims about stuff, and the interpretation can be tested by what the words in the bible say and most likely mean and teach about whatever question or claim is being examined.

In reality, most people just swallow, hook, line and sinker, everything their pastor says. Because he is the pastor, they just suckle from him with no thought or discernment whatsoever.

If that were not the case, there would be little or no debate on this forum. We would simply read scripture and all agree on what it says. Lol

It's possible that what the bible says is difficult to interpret. Peter thought Paul's letters were difficult.

 

[Strong in Him]

You need to show examples of the spiritual gifts being conveyed apart from the two outpourings and through the hands on an apostle. Until you do this, those gifts have ceased.

No I don't, and no they haven't.
You stated that the gifts ceased when the Apostles died - where does Scripture say that? Where did Jesus say, "there will only be signs and wonders for as long as you 11 disciples are alive, but future generations have had it"?

Scripture can't describe what was going to happen in the 5th, 10th or 12th centuries, never mind the 21st - because the last book was written in 90/100 A.D and the canon closed in the 300s.
To have evidence of what God is doing in his church today, you need to speak to Christians who are alive today and experiencing his blessings and miracles. You don't seem to want to accept this.
But God has certainly not stopped working, blessing and providing today. I have described 2 miracles of healing, one of which happened to me. I have heard many people speaking in tongues and have read of, or heard, prophecy being given.

The only person who misses out on all this is you - God hasn't stopped, and is not going to stop, giving gifts just because you don't believe. He may stop giving them to you, but that's another matter.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But sola scriptura is trustworthy. And going against what it clearly says is not wise.

Amen that!

 

[RDKirk]

You need to show examples of the spiritual gifts being conveyed apart from the two outpourings and through the hands on an apostle. Until you do this, those gifts have ceased.

Actually, no, because you just made that up in the first place.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think the main contention would be that while those like me who see it ceasing would allow for God to do healings and miracles, none today are gifted by him to do such, nor to give forth any additional revelations from God!

Well said. I like that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Its bizarre that you imagine people who listen to prophecy somehow ignore scripture. As I said elsewhere, its like comparing which is best, a coat or a house, two items of covering for entirely different purposes.
You Dave, walk around stark naked, trying to prove that your nicely ordered house is far more important than my coat, (meanwhile forgetting that as well as my coat, I also have a house.)

Your constant rant of "all prophecy today is false" is just that, a rant, devoid of experience or truth.
In obvious contrast to your void, I have lived prophetic words and visions for over 50 years, both receiving and giving.
They range from mere spiritual encouragement to deeply significant and life changing.
Many of them cover stuff that no scripture can reveal. ie. dates, names, events and places.
And as said previously, back in the 80s, my son at 3 years old gave an accurate and provable prophecy about buying a house. The word contained a deadline over 3 months hence, which came to pass a mere 2 hours short of the final deadline.
Was that a false prophecy?
Was my 3 year old a liar?

Nobody in their right senses should just blindly take a prophetic word without using discernment.
But exactly the same discernment should apply when listening to any bible teacher, even teachers here, and that includes myself.

As one who rails against prophetic deception you should note that the gifts of the spirit in the church have effectively been banned for almost 2000 years.
In that 2000 years, the only input the church had was at the hands of church theologians. And these theologians, with no help whatsoever from the prophetic gifts have managed to slice and dice the church into thousands of conflicting sects and denominations.

So next time you rail against the prophetic gifts, just remember it was theologians who messed up the church, not the prophets!

I think you are conflating two things, both called prophecy.

I don't think Dave is saying that God leaves us directionless but for Scripture; he admits to the indwelling and eye-opening and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I also think you will admit that there is danger in the acceptance of any and all "signs" as from God. Aaron wasn't the only one whose rod turned into a snake.

 

[NBB]

How can any one be sure that what they say or think is from the Holy Spirit as a spiritual gift rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?

Personally i need proof.
When a minister has good fruit, and miracles happens, you feel the presence of God and for example he tells you something that nobody knows except you, and then a phropecy, then you are left with no reason to not believe. Just search those fine details.

1 Corinthians 14:3-12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
3 But those who prophesy are speaking to people. They help people grow stronger in faith, and they give encouragement and comfort. 4 Those who speak in a different language are helping only themselves. But those who prophesy are helping the whole church.

 

[GingerBeer]

Personally i need proof.
When a minister has good fruit, and miracles happens, you feel the presence of God and for example he tells you something that nobody knows except you, and then a phropecy, then you are left with no reason to not believe. Just search those fine details.

What you mention is evidence but not really proof. I suppose that proof may be too much to expect about nearly anything. The evidence that you mention - good fruit (not clear to me what this really is), miracles, feeling God's presence (this one is very subjective), revealed secrets, prophecy - would not convince me but it would be encouraging I think.

 

[NBB]

What you mention is evidence but not really proof. I suppose that proof may be too much to expect about nearly anything. The evidence that you mention - good fruit (not clear to me what this really is), miracles, feeling God's presence (this one is very subjective), revealed secrets, prophecy - would not convince me but it would be encouraging I think.

Well yes its not 'in the hand' proof, but proof to yourself, good fruit is like the bible says, if someone has a good christian life and testimony. Feeling the presence of God is sublime i mean, if you haven't then you are missing on something very good, there is a lot of spiritual blessings to experience with God. The bible talks about 'heavenly gifts' and 'spiritual blessings'.
If someone start to talk without actually knowing otherwise than to be revealed by God about specific things that are true then you have to believe... i mean.

Feeling the presence of God is not subjective, he is God, and has an spiritual presence, the devil too, and it is disgusting. Jesus and the Holy spirit have their own 'presences' too.
I guess is described correcty if i say you feel the presence of God when he is close.