The question cessationists must answer.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are not backing your claims with scripture that says otherwise.

I don't know how many times I have joined in with threads debating Cessationism. There is not one Scripture that supports it. The doctrine was formed by a 19th Century Theologian who had a stronger belief in the pagan philosophy of Aristotle than in the Scripture itself. To hide that he was influenced by paganism, he came up the excuse that the supernatural gifts ceased when the canon of the New Testament was formed. The problem in that is that the supernatural gifts and miracles were commonplace up until the 4th Century A.D. and were publicly observed in the Orthodox church right through to the 12th Century!

As far as the Holy Spirit only imparted through the hands of the Apostles, the first three examples of the Holy Spirit coming to people was that He fell on the people without any laying on of hands at all. Also, "these signs shall follow those who believe" is what is said, not "these signs shall follow those who have had hands laid on them by the original Apostles."

So, because faith is based on the clear teaching of God's Word, then Cessationism is presumption and not faith, and does not please God.

 

[Dave L]

I don't know how many times I have joined in with threads debating Cessationism. There is not one Scripture that supports it. The doctrine was formed by a 19th Century Theologian who had a stronger belief in the pagan philosophy of Aristotle than in the Scripture itself. To hide that he was influenced by paganism, he came up the excuse that the supernatural gifts ceased when the canon of the New Testament was formed. The problem in that is that the supernatural gifts and miracles were commonplace up until the 4th Century A.D. and were publicly observed in the Orthodox church right through to the 12th Century!

As far as the Holy Spirit only imparted through the hands of the Apostles, the first three examples of the Holy Spirit coming to people was that He fell on the people without any laying on of hands at all. Also, "these signs shall follow those who believe" is what is said, not "these signs shall follow those who have had hands laid on them by the original Apostles."

So, because faith is based on the clear teaching of God's Word, then Cessationism is presumption and not faith, and does not please God.

Unless you can produce scripture showing another means of receiving the Charismatic Gifts beside the two outpourings, or through the hands of an apostle, all claims to the gifts are fraudulent.

 

[NBB]

Unless you can produce scripture showing another means of receiving the Charismatic Gifts beside the two outpourings, or through the hands of an apostle, all claims to the gifts are fraudulent.

Where in the bible says that?, it says that the Holy spirit gives the gifts to whoever he pleases.

 

[Dave L]

Where in the bible says that?, it says that the Holy spirit gives the gifts to whoever he pleases.

But only through an Apostle's hands.

 

[Dave L]

Actually, no, because you just made that up in the first place.

Acts shows no other means of distribution.

 

[Dave L]

No I don't, and no they haven't.
You stated that the gifts ceased when the Apostles died - where does Scripture say that? Where did Jesus say, "there will only be signs and wonders for as long as you 11 disciples are alive, but future generations have had it"?

Scripture can't describe what was going to happen in the 5th, 10th or 12th centuries, never mind the 21st - because the last book was written in 90/100 A.D and the canon closed in the 300s.
To have evidence of what God is doing in his church today, you need to speak to Christians who are alive today and experiencing his blessings and miracles. You don't seem to want to accept this.
But God has certainly not stopped working, blessing and providing today. I have described 2 miracles of healing, one of which happened to me. I have heard many people speaking in tongues and have read of, or heard, prophecy being given.

The only person who misses out on all this is you - God hasn't stopped, and is not going to stop, giving gifts just because you don't believe. He may stop giving them to you, but that's another matter.

You are adding to scripture going beyond what Acts says.

 

[Francis Drake]

“So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:” (1 Corinthians 1:7) (KJV 1900)

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” (Revelation 1:1) (KJV 1900)

"coming/Revelation" = ἀποκάλυψις, εως, ἡ (s. ἀποκαλύπτω; Philod., Vit. [περὶ κακιῶν] p. 38 Jensen) (Plut., Cato Mai. 34 8 [20, 8], Aemil. 262 [14, 3], Mor. 70f ἀ. τῆς ἁμαρτίας; Sir 11:27; 22:22; 41:26 v.l.; TestAbr A 6 p. 83, 27 [Stone p. 14]; GrBar, ApcEsdr ins, Just.) the lit. sense ‘uncovering’ as of head (s. Philod. above) does not appear in our lit., which uses the term in transcendent associations.
① making fully known, revelation, disclosure

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 112). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Apart from the KJV. most translations actually put "Revelation" in the English rather than "coming", which is why I missed your point. But as I said, I had already based my post on the Greek apocalypse.

However, I sincerely hope you don't abuse every verse of the bible in the fraudulent way you have this one. With this sort of interpretation, its no wonder there's such conflict amongst theologians.​

But if you insist on doing what you have done, then you cannot do it selectively to one verse, but you also have to do it to all other verses where that word is used. And it just doesn't work, but instead exposes your crass methods.

Romans2v5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
According to your world view, God is threatening them that He will deal with them when John writes the book of Revelation. Lol


1Thes1v6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
So again those who trouble the believers get their comeuppance when John writes the book of Revelation.

Luke17v29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30It will be just like that on the day the son of man is revealed
By your methods of interpretation, it should have rained fire and brimstone on the earth when John wrote his Revelation!

The truth of 1Cor1v7 is so so simple and so face value obvious. The Lord wants his church to be equipped with the gifts of the Holy Spirit until he returns to reign. And why wouldn't he want that?​

1Cor1v7so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8who also will sustain you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Apart from the KJV. most translations actually put "Revelation" in the English rather than "coming", which is why I missed your point. But as I said, I had already based my post on the Greek apocalypse.

However, I sincerely hope you don't abuse every verse of the bible in the fraudulent way you have this one. With this sort of interpretation, its no wonder there's such conflict amongst theologians.​

But if you insist on doing what you have done, then you cannot do it selectively to one verse, but you also have to do it to all other verses where that word is used. And it just doesn't work, but instead exposes your crass methods.

Romans2v5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
According to your world view, God is threatening them that He will deal with them when John writes the book of Revelation. Lol


1Thes1v6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
So again those who trouble the believers get their comeuppance when John writes the book of Revelation.

Luke17v29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30It will be just like that on the day the son of man is revealed
By your methods of interpretation, it should have rained fire and brimstone on the earth when John wrote his Revelation!

The truth of 1Cor1v7 is so so simple and so face value obvious. The Lord wants his church to be equipped with the gifts of the Holy Spirit until he returns to reign. And why wouldn't he want that?​

1Cor1v7so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8who also will sustain you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation fulfills the Revelation of Jesus Paul said would bring the end of tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge. Scripture is far superior in these areas.

 

[W2L]

By what wisdom or power do YOU minister today? is it by human wisdom, accrued knowledge? or is it imparted to you by the Holy Ghost?

1.Corinthians.2.4-5
and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1.Corinthians.2.14.
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God for they are folly to him and he is not able to understand them for they are spiritually discerned.

If God still gives men the gift of healing then why dont these "healers" go to the nearest children's hospital and cure child cancer? Or any of the other diseases that kill children? Why do children die why these healers do nothing? My answer is that they cant heal and thats why they dont heal these kids.

 

[Anto9us]

Cessationists talking about tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge are just blind men describing the elephant.

 

[Francis Drake]

Unless you can prove from scripture the spiritual gifts came in any other way than the two outpourings and the hands of an apostle, all claims to having the gifts are fraudulent.

Luke11v 9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
The above verse is exceptionally clear. Jesus then clarifies it even more.-

11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
The above has no cut off date, and was given before the cross, and still applies after the cross and after Pentecost.
The promise is still in force and available to all those who ask.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't know how many times I have joined in with threads debating Cessationism. There is not one Scripture that supports it. The doctrine was formed by a 19th Century Theologian who had a stronger belief in the pagan philosophy of Aristotle than in the Scripture itself. To hide that he was influenced by paganism, he came up the excuse that the supernatural gifts ceased when the canon of the New Testament was formed. The problem in that is that the supernatural gifts and miracles were commonplace up until the 4th Century A.D. and were publicly observed in the Orthodox church right through to the 12th Century!

As far as the Holy Spirit only imparted through the hands of the Apostles, the first three examples of the Holy Spirit coming to people was that He fell on the people without any laying on of hands at all. Also, "these signs shall follow those who believe" is what is said, not "these signs shall follow those who have had hands laid on them by the original Apostles."

So, because faith is based on the clear teaching of God's Word, then Cessationism is presumption and not faith, and does not please God.

Actually cessationism was documented far earlier than the 19th century. The church fathers immediately after the apostolic age observed and declared the supernatural gifts such as tongues to have ceased from around 300ad.

BTW Cessationism doesn't say that miracles or healing have ceased. God can and does perform miracles today in response to prayer for instance. But men being given the supernatural ability to perform miracles and instantly and completely heal people with a command or a touch was something necessary in the infant Church in order to authenticate those individuals and the message they brought.

Today we have their Acts recorded in scripture and are thus fully authenticated and recognized as leaders and inspired spokesmen for Christ with their teachings recorded as scripture, which is everything we need to guide us in the faith and in life. There is no longer any need for the 'sign gifts'. What people today call the gifts of prophecy, tongues, healing, etc do not match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are adding to scripture going beyond what Acts says.

No I'm not.
Where does Acts say that the Spirit will stop giving gifts after the Apostles have died?

The Holy Spirit was with people in the OT.
He was present at creation, Genesis 1:2.
God put his breath, or Spirit, in Adam and gave him life, Genesis 2:7.
Saul was filled with the Spirit and prophesied, 1 Samuel 10:10.
The Spirit came upon David when he was anointed king, 1 Samuel 16:13.
Elijah and Elisha both raised the dead.
Isaiah, Jeremiah and others prophesied through the Holy Spirit,.
Ezekiel had a vision of the valley of dry bones - when he prophesied to the wind, the bones lived. God said he would put his Spirit in people. Joel also spoke of this.
OT prophets prophesied about Jesus' coming, ministry and death, through the Spirit.

Since the Spirit created, enabled, anointed, empowered and spoke through people even before Jesus was born, why would he not continue to fill, gift and empower God's children under the New Covenant, just as Jesus said?

 

[Strong in Him]

My answer is that they cant heal and thats why they dont heal these kids.

That's YOUR answer; how do you know that's the reason?

 

[Anto9us]

Act 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Has God CEASED 'calling' anyone?

 

[Dave L]

No I'm not.
Where does Acts say that the Spirit will stop giving gifts after the Apostles have died?

The Holy Spirit was with people in the OT.
He was present at creation, Genesis 1:2.
God put his breath, or Spirit, in Adam and gave him life, Genesis 2:7.
Saul was filled with the Spirit and prophesied, 1 Samuel 10:10.
The Spirit came upon David when he was anointed king, 1 Samuel 16:13.
Elijah and Elisha both raised the dead.
Isaiah, Jeremiah and others prophesied through the Holy Spirit,.
Ezekiel had a vision of the valley of dry bones - when he prophesied to the wind, the bones lived. God said he would put his Spirit in people. Joel also spoke of this.
OT prophets prophesied about Jesus' coming, ministry and death, through the Spirit.

Since the Spirit created, enabled, anointed, empowered and spoke through people even before Jesus was born, why would he not continue to fill, gift and empower God's children under the New Covenant, just as Jesus said?

Acts does not show the Charismatic Gifts dispersed in any other way than the two outpourings and through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture to say otherwise.

 

[Dave L]

Luke11v 9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
The above verse is exceptionally clear. Jesus then clarifies it even more.-

11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
The above has no cut off date, and was given before the cross, and still applies after the cross and after Pentecost.
The promise is still in force and available to all those who ask.

We all have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Gifts ceased with the apostles.

 

[NBB]

What bothers me is that cessationists say God doesn't speak at all, you have only the bible, why make such an annoying statement? He spoke in the entire OT and NT why stop now?
If God can't speak, then you have no guidance in things that are not covered by the bible, which is a lot of things, the Holy spirit can't remind you of Jesus words like the bible said becuase he is mute now, he can't call anyone to minister, since nobody will get notified by God... etc etc etc...

 

[W2L]

That's YOUR answer; how do you know that's the reason?

What other reason could there be? Healing sick kids would glorify God, causing men to repent and follow the Lord, and would heal sick kids. Why wouldn't they heal them if they could?

 

[Dave L]

What bothers me is that cessationists say God doesn't speak at all, you have only the bible, why make such an annoying statement? He spoke in the entire OT and NT why stop now?
If God can't speak, then you have no guidance in things that are not covered by the bible, which is a lot of things, the Holy spirit can't remind you of Jesus words like the bible said becuase he is mute now, he can't call anyone to minister, since nobody will get notified by God... etc etc etc...

No, I say God speaks through love and tells us which way to go according to that. We do not hear voices in our heads like you read about every so often.