The question cessationists must answer.

[Anto9us]

Blind Men and the Elephant

 

[Anto9us]

Charismatics have actually SEEN THE ELEPHANT.

Cessationists have blindly touched one part of the elephant or another, and think they have an accurate concept of it, when they in fact do not.

Continuationists might include those who do not speak in Tongues, Prophesy, or give Word of Knowledge themselves, yet they don't claim that those gifts have CEASED yet.

I feel a big majority of Christians neither speak in Tongues, Prophesy, or give Word of Knowledge themselves; yet they have no doctrinal position regarding their continuation or cessation.

 

[SkyWriting]

Human wisdom is just another way of describing the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil. Whether it appears good or evil, it still produces spiritual death because both are godless solutions from man.

 

[Billy Evmur]

If God still gives men the gift of healing then why dont these "healers" go to the nearest children's hospital and cure child cancer? Or any of the other diseases that kill children? Why do children die why these healers do nothing? My answer is that they cant heal and thats why they dont heal these kids.

Did Jesus? or the apostles? You believe Jesus saves from sin right? so why don't you go down to the massage parlours and save everybody?

The gospel doesn't work that way....

 

[RDKirk]

Acts shows no other means of distribution.

Nothing says that the laying of hands is necessary.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No, I say God speaks through love and tells us which way to go according to that. We do not hear voices in our heads like you read about every so often.

See that is an interesting point...how then does the direction come [those which are from God?] if it is a thought it is God SPEAKING, that's is exactly how the gifts work. And I believe it is happening all the time with Christians...they just don't follow through with it.

 

[RDKirk]

We Continuationists do not hear voices in our heads telling us that "that which is PERFECT has come";
look around, nothing is complete, perfect, or mature like we expect things to be when it's REALLY over...

Yes. But also, if "that which is perfect" was intended to be the closing of the canon, it's odd that Paul didn't actually say so.

Nor did the early church get that message, because they were pretty lackadaisical about getting the canon closed. Nobody even thought about there being a "canon" until Marcion in 140 AD, and it took them another 150 years even after that before they got around to it.

If "that which is perfect" was known to mean the canon, they would have gotten on that stick before the end of the first century.

 

[Billy Evmur]

But only through an Apostle's hands.

Nonsense Ananias laid his hands upon Saul and he was filled with the Holy Spirit, became Paul the greatest apostle of all.

Others received the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Cessationists talking about tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge are just blind men describing the elephant.

Yes it is similar to trying to witness the new birth to a rank unbeliever. They have not experienced it so they supposed nobody else did.

 

[Billy Evmur]

How can any one be sure that what they say or think is from the Holy Spirit as a spiritual gift rather than an opinion enthusiastically embraced or an appealing idea heard, read, or seen in their experience?

The same way you discern whether a prayer is of the Spirit or of man.

 

[swordsman1]

Yes. But also, if "that which is perfect" was intended to be the closing of the canon, it's odd that Paul didn't actually say so.

It's also odd that if 'the perfect' (or 'completion' as several translations put it) was the return of Christ, that Paul never actually mentions Christ or his return in that passage.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The problem is that the gifts, once distributed by an apostle, are not longer here. And all claims to having them are fraudulent.

So your admission is that you minister wisdom of men, in your own power and strength.

 

[Hillsage]

Nonsense Ananias laid his hands upon Saul and he was filled with the Holy Spirit, became Paul the greatest apostle of all.

Others received the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands.

Great verse, now let's watch 'the waffling' begin. Because no one here ever changes their mind just because they were proven wrong.

 

[W2L]

The gospel doesn't work that way....

Why doesnt it?

 

[GingerBeer]

The same way you discern whether a prayer is of the Spirit or of man.

Are written prayers of the Spirit?

 

[Hillsage]

What could be more dangerous than someone being told they have a 'word from the Lord' for them and thus being compelled to obey it when really it was nothing more than a feeling.

I can think of two things just as dangerous.

DANGER ONE is declaring the Bible as the inerrant word when scripture itself declares that not to be the case.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?

St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

DANGER TWO is a fundamental preacher who loudly proclaims cessasionism and God not speaking today, but then avidly declares that he was 'CALLED to be a preacher.'

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually cessationism was documented far earlier than the 19th century. The church fathers immediately after the apostolic age observed and declared the supernatural gifts such as tongues to have ceased from around 300ad.

BTW Cessationism doesn't say that miracles or healing have ceased. God can and does perform miracles today in response to prayer for instance. But men being given the supernatural ability to perform miracles and instantly and completely heal people with a command or a touch was something necessary in the infant Church in order to authenticate those individuals and the message they brought.

Today we have their Acts recorded in scripture and are thus fully authenticated and recognized as leaders and inspired spokesmen for Christ with their teachings recorded as scripture, which is everything we need to guide us in the faith and in life. There is no longer any need for the 'sign gifts'. What people today call the gifts of prophecy, tongues, healing, etc do not match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture.

I accept that is your view, and I don't intend to get into a further debate about it. I am happy for us to have fellowship on the things we are in unity with and put on the back burner those which may divide us.

However, I am reading a good book at present, "An Alarm To The Unconverted" by Joseph Alleine. First published in 1672. It is a very sobering book because along with many other things in the modern church, many professing Christian conversions are nothing like the conversions to Christ that were in the Early Church. He goes through what conversion is and isn't with such a fine tooth comb, that one is moved to ask, "Who of us can be really saved?"
Puts hairs on your chest!

 

[RDKirk]

It's also odd that if 'the perfect' (or 'completion' as several translations put it) was the return of Christ, that Paul never actually mentions Christ or his return in that passage.

Paul mentions Christ and His return all over the place. Multiple times in ever letter. He alludes to it in dozens of different ways, and to his audience this would be another such allusion...

...because he never, ever otherwise talks about a new set of scriptures coming together. There is no other witness indicating that Paul or any other apostle expected there to be a New Testament, nor is said explicitly here.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Where is Michael Jackson and his popcorn...oh...wait...this isn't Facebook...doh!

In all seriousness, I'm loving these replies.

Just to add my two cents...

$0.01 It doesn't matter. We're saved whether we believe in the manifested gifts or not. I've listened to great sermons from John MacArthur, who's study bible has been my go to for 13 years. I've seen cessasionists who have brought 10's of thousands to Christ. I've also listened to, and read books, by those who do believe in the manifested gifts who have changed my life, such as John Bevere.

$0.02 Both sides make sense if you look at the arguments from their respective world views. If you have peace in your spirit and you're seeking God and not the gifts, then go nuts! If you are content and happy without them, then don't ask for them...but please don't bash those who choose to or say they are possessed by demons.

Ultimately, the way folks choose to worship God has caused way too much strife and division in His body. If you don't like the way that they worship in a particular church, go down the street, there's another church that worships differently and may be more to your liking.

 

[Strong in Him]

What other reason could there be? healing those kids would glorify God, causes men to repent, and heal children too. Why not do that?

Firstly because they may not be called to do that.
Secondly, miracles do not always produce faith. The Israelites saw the plagues of Egypt, saw the sea parting, had manna from heaven, water from a rock, and still grumbled and doubted. The Pharisees saw a dead Lazarus walking out of the tomb, and their response was to want to kill him before people believed. Another time they told Jesus that he performed miracles by the power of Satan.
Thirdly, if clearing a hospital ward would cause mass repentance and revival, God would do it. He is very capable of letting his glory be seen. He allows us to share in the miracles, but doesn't need us for them to happen.
Fourthly, how do you know that God doesn't want to heal some of these people through your prayers, or witness to them through your testimony and teaching? Have you asked him? Do you work/volunteer at a hospital so that you can take Christ onto the wards and pray for patients and staff?