The question cessationists must answer.

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

The Holy Spirit teacher is promised to all those who keep the words of Christ. In the apostles day teachers were sent to teach those words. We need no teacher today because we have the words Christ wanted us to have. Men in the Church have added to that word their traditions and have caused great divisions in the body. They think they are apostles and teachers but they cant discern this truth . For this reason i seek guidance from God Himself, not any teacher.

Thess · Nov 18, 2018

W2L said:
The Holy Spirit teacher is promised to all those who keep the words of Christ. In the apostles day teachers were sent to teach those words. We need no teacher today because we have the words Christ wanted us to have. Men in the Church have added to that word their traditions and have caused great divisions in the body. They think they are apostles and teachers but they cant discern this truth . For this reason i seek guidance from God Himself, not any teacher.

I just said out loud, "I love it."

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

Thess said:
I just said out loud, "I love it."

Good to hear.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Thess said:
He most certainly does, and just because one person has not been on the recipient end of such miracles, this does not prove that God is not real nor that He does not performs miracles. I would die for this true statement today.

I never said that God does not perform miracles. I said most acts of clairvoyancy in the church are either tricks or generic statements that could be true of almost anybody.

Clairvoyancy is the domain of psychic mediums and the occult, not Christianity.

NBB · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
I never said that God does not perform miracles. I said most acts of clairvoyancy in the church are either tricks or generic statements that could be true of almost anybody.

Clairvoyancy is the domain of psychic mediums and the occult, not Christianity.

Tell that to Jesus, who knew all thoughts in the heart of man when he was on earth.
And i'm sure there are other examples in the bible about prophets or someone else who knew what other persons thought.

Is not clairvoyancy, but revelation of the Holy spirit, prophecy and discerment.

And since when actual 'clairvoyant' people can do that? all of them seem to be a scam.

Thess · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
I never said that God does not perform miracles. I said most acts of clairvoyancy in the church are either tricks or generic statements that could be true of almost anybody.

Clairvoyancy is the domain of psychic mediums and the occult, not Christianity.

Okie doke. I was just agreeing with ya.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

NBB said:
Tell that to Jesus, who knew all thoughts in the heart of man when he was on earth.
And i'm sure there are other examples in the bible about prophets or someone else who knew what other persons thought.

Is not clairvoyancy, but revelation of the Holy spirit, prophecy and discerment.

And since when actual 'clairvoyant' people can do that? all of them seem to be a scam.

Jesus is the omniscient Son of God.

What you described is clairvoyancy:

NBB said:
This has happened countless times, a minister would speak to you of details about you he has no way to know,

NBB · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
What you described is clairvoyancy:

Yes, that happens, and is not clairvoyance, is revelation from the Holy spirit or prophecy.
God knows all our thoughts, he just goes one step ahead and can reveal that to another person.

1 Corinthians 14:23-25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don’t believe, they will say you are crazy. 24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. 25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, “Without a doubt, God is here with you.”

What you make about that statement in bold?
If someone if prophetizing, and makes the secrets of someone heart known, is not that revelation from God who knows our thoughts?

Thess · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
I never said that God does not perform miracles. I said most acts of clairvoyancy in the church are either tricks or generic statements that could be true of almost anybody.

Clairvoyancy is the domain of psychic mediums and the occult, not Christianity.

By the way, I noticed that you rated one of my previous replies to you as "friendly", though it was my saying that I didn't want to engage. I'm impressed and I respect you for that. That's tells me a lot about you.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

NBB said:
Yes, that happens, and is not clairvoyance, is revelation from the Holy spirit or prophecy.
God knows all our thoughts, he just goes one step ahead and can reveal that to another person.

1 Corinthians 14:23-25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don’t believe, they will say you are crazy. 24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. 25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, “Without a doubt, God is here with you.”

What you make about that statement in bold?
If someone if prophetizing, and makes the secrets of someone heart known, is not that revelation from God who knows our thoughts?

That is an example of prophecy. When God speaks words to a prophet who passes it on to an individual. Not extra sensory perception - the spectacle of proclaiming details about someone's life that nobody else knows about. With lots of 'oooohs' in response.

NBB · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
That is an example of prophecy. When God speaks words to a prophet who passes it on to an individual. Not extra sensory perception - the spectacle of proclaiming details about about someone's life that he nobody else knows about.

The secrets of their heart, are some details about someone life you know,..
And is not extra sensory or something, God reveals that.
And nobody needs to know, only God knows all.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

NBB said:
The secrets of their heart, are some details about someone life you know,..
And is not extra sensory or something, God reveals that.
And nobody needs to know, only God knows all.

But these are not prophecies where God speaks actual words to a prophet who then passes those words on. They are 'sensed' - ie clairvoyance.

Hillsage · Nov 18, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Those sicknesses, pains and disabilities are all contained in our mortal body, and that mortal body dies and gets dumped behind as trash in the ground or cremated. So in no way can that body be considered cured or healthy.

The claim that death is a cure is nothing more than an attempt to explain away the church's unbelief and is

never found anywhere in scripture.

According to scripture, it is the who enemy comes to kill steal and destroy. Your theology makes that enemy a blessing, a healer

Don't forget to add another (witness of two) scriptural testimony, of how GOD personally answers as to how HE feels concerning SM's personal 'opinion' of death.

1CO 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Your verse, and the one I just shared are the ones that the Holy Spirit enlightened to me one day early in my walk in the Spirit of FELLOWSHIP.

You see my 4 year old brother died when I was 12. After the funeral I was sitting on our porch devastated when my uncle came out and sit down beside me and said; "It's all right D, God just wanted another flower for his garden in the sky." Now I know that he meant well with that comment. But spiritually what happened to me, was he opened a door for the devil to plant a seed of bitterness toward God in my heart, from that day forth. I never forgot telling God that "If you wanted a stinking flower all YOU had to do was create one. You sure didn't have to kill my brother to get one." That seed was still in me after getting saved, and at a point in my early walk He decided it was time. And it was in pointing me to those same two scriptures at 'one time' and then bringing to my remembrance my word curse against Him, that my heart was repentant. I forgave God and I directed my hatred for death with His, and placed the 'blame' on the devil who is the real spiritual enemy producing death.

EDIT: He just brought to mind a third witness.

DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Alithis said:
Yes thats right...
Nor did paul ever personally meet Jesus... So why does jesus ask ..why are you persecuting ME.. ?
The reason is..god IS SPIRIT abd his body is all those in which his holy Spirit dwells.

Wrong I'm afraid. Jesus still has a body - a glorious one.

Phil 2:5-8 "we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body"

Paul met the resurrected Christ - in person. Just as he said he did.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Francis Drake said:
You are misquoting me again. I despise cessationism, as I would any doctrine of demons.
I merely acknowledged the apostles that were listed in the scriptures had died 2000 years ago.

But the claim that the ministry of apostle died with them is completely false. If apostles and prophets have ceased, then it stands to reason that all the others have also ceased.

And if the ministry gifts have ceased, then all of today's teachers pastors and evangelists are frauds and liars and have nothing to do with God.

And are the apostles you say we have today the same type as 2000 years ago ie. miracle working, eye-witness, infallible spokesmen for Christ? If not then you must agree that particular gift has ceased.

Same with prophecy. One form of prophecy is scripture writing. Unless you say the canon is open, then you agree that form of the gift ceased.

You are a cessationist to some degree.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Those sicknesses, pains and disabilities are all contained in our mortal body, and that mortal body dies and gets dumped behind as trash in the ground or cremated. So in no way can that body be considered cured or healthy.

But that same dead mortal body in the ground will be raised and changed into a glorious incorruptible body that will have no sickness, pain, or disabilities.

Someone who has suffered from a painful disability all their lives will be fully restored in the life to come.

Francis Drake said:
The claim that death is a cure is nothing more than an attempt to explain away the church's unbelief and is

never found anywhere in scripture.

"There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Rev. 22:4

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Don't be so illogical, it proves no such thing.
The two witnesses are raised to specifically minister in Jerusalem.

The fact that two specific prophets are raised in Jerusalem has no bearing on elsewhere.

You are making assumptions. It doesn't say these 2 prophets would be raised up in Jerusalem. Nor does it say there were no other prophets in Jerusalem. And even if was in Jerusalem and there weren't any prophets there that wouldn't stop God from bringing in 2 existing prophets from elsewhere.

God would only need to raise up 2 prophets if there were none around to begin with.

This certainly doesn't disprove cessationism as continuists like to claim. Ironically it is more the opposite.

Francis Drake · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
I never said that God does not perform miracles. I said most acts of clairvoyancy in the church are either tricks or generic statements that could be true of almost anybody.

Clairvoyancy is the domain of psychic mediums and the occult, not Christianity.

Whether in or out of church, all acts of clairvoyancy are fake, but words of knowledge, visions, dreams and prophecy are not clairvoyancy.

swordsman1 · Nov 18, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Whether in or out of church, all acts of clairvoyancy are fake, but words of knowledge, visions, dreams and prophecy are not clairvoyancy.

This is the definition of clairvoyance.

Clairvoyance (/klɛərˈvɔɪəns/; from French clair meaning "clear" and voyance meaning "vision") is the alleged ability to gain information about an object, person, location, or physical event through extrasensory perception.[1][2] Any person who is claimed to have such ability is said accordingly to be a clairvoyant (/klɛərˈvɔɪənt/)[3] ("one who sees clearly").

The definition of the gifts you mention can be found in scripture. None of them are 'sensing' secret details about people's lives.

Francis Drake · Nov 18, 2018

swordsman1 said:
But these are not prophecies where God speaks actual words to a prophet who then passes those words on. They are 'sensed' - ie clairvoyance.

In your dearth of knowledge, you make constant empty pronouncements.

You have no experience of Old Testament prophecy, you have no experience of New Testament prophecy, and you have no experience of prophecy in the church today, yet you cannot stop yourself passing judgement.

Prophecy today runs from absolute certainty of what we speak, down to hesitant words that need checking and confirmation.
The same is true for visions, words of knowledge, words of wisdom etc.

I have given prophecies that I would go to the bank on. Other times they have been less certain. I all cases I warn people to seek confirmation directly from the Lord.

The gifts today aren't about creating new doctrines, they are about encouragement and direction in people's lives.
As such they are a wonderful gift to the church, and it is so sad to see you rejecting such a blessing.

These gifts have nothing to do with clairvoyance.
If I seek the Lord for the Holy Spirit, then I am guaranteed to be given the Holy Spirit.
If I seek the Lord for wisdom, then I am guaranteed to be given wisdom.
That is where the gifts of the Spirit are rooted!

The question cessationists must answer.

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