THE QUESTION ABOUT COVENANT ISRAEL

[Dan1988]

They do not say what I am saying. They have a religious franchise to promote and sell. I am only saying we should have Faith in God and let HIS Word direct us. Have faith in HIM, not the words of the people who come in HIS Name, as Jesus specifically warns about.. You seem to be willing to throw out the Bible because of the "other voices" that quotes some of His Words. I have found that HE is Faithful to direct our foot steps if we are willing to trust Him and His Word.





Again, you are allowing the doctrines of a bunch of religions in the land to diminish the power of God's Word in your mind. Jesus said to "Live by Every Word that Proceeds from God". A man either believes in Him or they don't. satan has, from the very beginning, worked to deceive men into rejecting God's Words, and it quotes the Bible to succeed in this deception.

What I am saying is to trust the Christ of the Bible to direct you, stay away from these 40,000 differing sects, and place your faith in Him. You will understand the "cost" Jesus speaks of when you do this. The religious practice of gathering in a sanctuary built of stone and wood is just a modern version of the Levitical Priesthood that Jesus changed.



My view is to read the scriptures and "Hunger and thirst" for righteousness. It is the Christ who said that few enter the narrow path. Not me. I just believe Him.



And according to the Holy Scriptures, who get's the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Now should I listen to you, or Jimmy Swaggart to find out who God gives His Spirit to? Or should I have Faith in His Word, and believe them? I know what Peter believed.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Now you may have been convinced by "other voices" that there is 40,000 ways to interpret these words, but my 7 year old grandson can read it and understand it perfectly. It isn't the Word's of God which cause confusion, it is the "other voice" in the garden that convinces us we can't trust them, that causes the problem.



And you choose to believe him? Why him over the other 39,999 sects? This is what I mean. Your entire understanding of the scriptures are through the words of "other" voices because somehow you have been convinced that God is not capable of directing you without these "other" voices. I used to believe the same way. But I have come to find this is not true. I believe you would to if you have Faith enough in the Word of God which became Flesh to trust what HE says as Jesus and His Disciples instruct us to do.



It isn't about me, it's about the teaching. You disagree with my understanding, not because you can find any Scriptures that show my error, but because what I understand is different than what you have been taught by one sect out of the 40,000 sects that you have chosen to believe. Or perhaps you take a little doctrine from many sects and come to own religion.

What I am saying is that if a man follows the instructions of the Word's of the Bible, outside the religious influence of the religions of the land we are born into, your understanding would be different.

Like Jesus and His Disciples, you would find yourself in opposition to the teaching of the religions of the land, you would be ridiculed and hated. But you would also be blessed above anything I can define with human words.

Not by following me, or Benny Hinn, or the Pope, but by placing your Faith in the Word of God which became Flesh and trusting Him.

My sincere hope is that you might consider these words and "Come out of her".

Rev. 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Either way, thank you for the discussion.

It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.

I have tried to point out the the truth that we have 40,000 different interpretations of scripture and each one is exactly the same as you. They all say as you do, "my understanding and interpretation, is the only correct one and the other 39,999 are all wrong".

I'm surprised you can't see this, everyone believes they posses the truth and they have entered by the narrow gate. You say God's Word is simple to understand, but the reality is there are 40,000 ways to understand it, our pastor says that it's a good thing to have so many diverse denominations. He said watch out for those like you who claim that their view is the only one that's right.

I spoke to my pastor about this very subject, and he said that most people will hold to their view at any cost and they will go to the grave holding it because they have invested their whole life and energy into what they believe to be true. So most people have closed the door on accepting another version, they put up barriers and defenses as soon as they hear something different to what they have invested their whole lives into. They're not interested in the truth of the matter, because they already believe they posses the real truth.

So we can't just say, "the bible says this or that" because this and that can be understood in 40,000 different ways.

God won't judge anyone upon how well they have understood scripture. Our pastor said we don't need to read the bible or hold the right view to be saved, since the vast majority of saved people had never read a single word of the bible.

Jesus said, "believe in me and ye shall be saved" so that's good enough for me. He never said believe in Me and study the bible and hold the right view and ye shall be saved.

We should never study the bible by ourselves as you seem to do, we need a shepherd to guide us in our study or we will get lost and end up as that rouge lost sheep who the hungry lion had for lunch.

 

[Studyman]

It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.

I have tried to point out the the truth that we have 40,000 different interpretations of scripture and each one is exactly the same as you. They all say as you do, "my understanding and interpretation, is the only correct one and the other 39,999 are all wrong".

You are simply being dishonest here. I did not say "my interpretation" is right. I'm simply saying that if we all got our instruction in Righteousness from the same source, there would be more unity than not.

But men today don't get their instruction in righteousness from the source that created righteousness. It is a tradition of religious men to choose from the 40,000 religious leaders, who come in Jesus name. Your disagreement with me is not because you can find fault with my understanding of Scriptures, it is because my understanding doesn't align with the "other" voice you choose to listen to. Instead of going to the Scriptures in faith, you went to one of the 40,000 different sects.

I am not saying these things as an insult, only pointing out what you are telling me and the warning Jesus gave us about doing what you are doing.

I'm surprised you can't see this, everyone believes they posses the truth and they have entered by the narrow gate. You say God's Word is simple to understand, but the reality is there are 40,000 ways to understand it, our pastor says that it's a good thing to have so many diverse denominations. He said watch out for those like you who claim that their view is the only one that's right.

Can you show me even one place where I said to listen to me? Can you provide me with one instance where I said my view is the only right view? Who has put these thoughts in your mind. I have only said to trust the God of the Bible and His Words. The same as Jesus, Paul, and Peter said. Why are you twisting my post to imply something i never said?

I spoke to my pastor about this very subject, and he said that most people will hold to their view at any cost and they will go to the grave holding it because they have invested their whole life and energy into what they believe to be true. So most people have closed the door on accepting another version, they put up barriers and defenses as soon as they hear something different to what they have invested their whole lives into. They're not interested in the truth of the matter, because they already believe they posses the real truth.

So then in your religion, to find the truth, I MUST find one pastor out of the 40,000 different religious beliefs, and choose one, like you have, to find the truth. And like you, I must take this pastors word, the one pastor out of the 40,000 differing philosophies of religious men, and not allow the Word's of anyone, including Jesus, Paul, Peter, Isaiah or God Almighty Himself, to sway me from that particular pastor's belief.

Isn't this what happened to the Jews? didn't God tell me it was the "shepherds" that led God's People astray?

Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe whomever you want. I was simply pointing out what the Holy scriptures says, and how it contradicts "many" of the pastors who come in Jesus Name, just as HE said there would be. By all means, make your own choice and stick with it if you please. I was just offering to you what the God of the Bible teaches about "many" religious men who come in Jesus' name.

So we can't just say, "the bible says this or that" because this and that can be understood in 40,000 different ways.

Who says so? Where does the God of the Bible or His Prophets, or His Disciples ever make such a claim? Can you please show me where you received this knowledge.

God won't judge anyone upon how well they have understood scripture. Our pastor said we don't need to read the bible or hold the right view to be saved, since the vast majority of saved people had never read a single word of the bible.

Again, you are free to seek out and believe the words of any man you choose. I was simply pointing out what the scriptures say about where we find out about instruction in righteousness, and Salvation, and the Gospel of Christ, etc. From front to back, we are instructed to listen to the Holy Scriptures. Look for yourself.

Jesus said, "believe in me and ye shall be saved" so that's good enough for me. He never said believe in Me and study the bible and hold the right view and ye shall be saved.

But HE did warn about religious men who "come in His Name". Religious men who preach "Another Jesus". How can we know if the religious man we pick, out of the 40,000 different religious philosophies available to us, is teaching us about the real Jesus, and not another? The real Gospel, and not another? Paul tells us we can know by the Holy Scriptures that God has made available to every one of us. Jesus said we are to Live by EVERY WORD of God. Shall I let "another voice" in the garden convince me these Words are not true? It is true that it is much easier to just go find a preacher somewhere and follow him and his religion.

And you are free to to do this. I am simply pointing out the Scriptures which warn of taking that kind of risk where Salvation is concerned.

We should never study the bible by ourselves as you seem to do, we need a shepherd to guide us in our study or we will get lost and end up as that rouge lost sheep who the hungry lion had for lunch.

Again, I have no doubt some voice has convinced you that this religious philosophy is true. How is trusting the Word's of the Christ of the Bible, not letting the Shepherd guide us? Is the Christ so weak, is HIS Word so incomplete that we must pick between 40,000 differing religious philosophies, that Jesus warned about over and over, and hope we pick the right one? Can you show me in the Holy Scriptures where I am not supposed to commune alone with God and His Word, just Him and me? Can you provide any scriptural support for your belief that we should never trust the Bible itself for our instruction in righteousness?

Of course if I was a religious franchise owner, whose wealth is determined by how many people I can convince to come to me for instructions in righteousness, I can see the wisdom in convincing as many as possible that Salvation can only come by picking one of the 40,000 religious men, all claiming to "come in Christ's Name". Imagine how much wealth and power would be lost if men found out they can be reconciled to God by trusting in the Word's of the Christ alone.

Imagine how the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time felt when Jesus became the High Priest. To accept Him Alone as their High Priest, they would lose their power, no more free money, no more praise of men. No more selling goats and turtle doves for the sacrifices. No, they could not have that.

Yes, we will not come to an agreement probably, but not about scriptures as you have not offered any interpretation. Our disagreement is between religious doctrines and traditions of a religion you have chosen, VS. what the Holy Scriptures actually say.

I just want to make it clear that I am not saying to follow me, nor am I promoting any religious franchise. I am simply pointing out the written dangers of trusting in the religious philosophies of men, especially when we have HIS Word in our own homes.

 

[Dan1988]

You are simply being dishonest here. I did not say "my interpretation" is right. I'm simply saying that if we all got our instruction in Righteousness from the same source, there would be more unity than not.

But men today don't get their instruction in righteousness from the source that created righteousness. It is a tradition of religious men to choose from the 40,000 religious leaders, who come in Jesus name. Your disagreement with me is not because you can find fault with my understanding of Scriptures, it is because my understanding doesn't align with the "other" voice you choose to listen to. Instead of going to the Scriptures in faith, you went to one of the 40,000 different sects.

I am not saying these things as an insult, only pointing out what you are telling me and the warning Jesus gave us about doing what you are doing.



Can you show me even one place where I said to listen to me? Can you provide me with one instance where I said my view is the only right view? Who has put these thoughts in your mind. I have only said to trust the God of the Bible and His Words. The same as Jesus, Paul, and Peter said. Why are you twisting my post to imply something i never said?



So then in your religion, to find the truth, I MUST find one pastor out of the 40,000 different religious beliefs, and choose one, like you have, to find the truth. And like you, I must take this pastors word, the one pastor out of the 40,000 differing philosophies of religious men, and not allow the Word's of anyone, including Jesus, Paul, Peter, Isaiah or God Almighty Himself, to sway me from that particular pastor's belief.

Isn't this what happened to the Jews? didn't God tell me it was the "shepherds" that led God's People astray?

Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe whomever you want. I was simply pointing out what the Holy scriptures says, and how it contradicts "many" of the pastors who come in Jesus Name, just as HE said there would be. By all means, make your own choice and stick with it if you please. I was just offering to you what the God of the Bible teaches about "many" religious men who come in Jesus' name.



Who says so? Where does the God of the Bible or His Prophets, or His Disciples ever make such a claim? Can you please show me where you received this knowledge.



Again, you are free to seek out and believe the words of any man you choose. I was simply pointing out what the scriptures say about where we find out about instruction in righteousness, and Salvation, and the Gospel of Christ, etc. From front to back, we are instructed to listen to the Holy Scriptures. Look for yourself.



But HE did warn about religious men who "come in His Name". Religious men who preach "Another Jesus". How can we know if the religious man we pick, out of the 40,000 different religious philosophies available to us, is teaching us about the real Jesus, and not another? The real Gospel, and not another? Paul tells us we can know by the Holy Scriptures that God has made available to every one of us. Jesus said we are to Live by EVERY WORD of God. Shall I let "another voice" in the garden convince me these Words are not true? It is true that it is much easier to just go find a preacher somewhere and follow him and his religion.

And you are free to to do this. I am simply pointing out the Scriptures which warn of taking that kind of risk where Salvation is concerned.




Again, I have no doubt some voice has convinced you that this religious philosophy is true. How is trusting the Word's of the Christ of the Bible, not letting the Shepherd guide us? Is the Christ so weak, is HIS Word so incomplete that we must pick between 40,000 differing religious philosophies, that Jesus warned about over and over, and hope we pick the right one? Can you show me in the Holy Scriptures where I am not supposed to commune alone with God and His Word, just Him and me? Can you provide any scriptural support for your belief that we should never trust the Bible itself for our instruction in righteousness?

Of course if I was a religious franchise owner, whose wealth is determined by how many people I can convince to come to me for instructions in righteousness, I can see the wisdom in convincing as many as possible that Salvation can only come by picking one of the 40,000 religious men, all claiming to "come in Christ's Name". Imagine how much wealth and power would be lost if men found out they can be reconciled to God by trusting in the Word's of the Christ alone.

Imagine how the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time felt when Jesus became the High Priest. To accept Him Alone as their High Priest, they would lose their power, no more free money, no more praise of men. No more selling goats and turtle doves for the sacrifices. No, they could not have that.

Yes, we will not come to an agreement probably, but not about scriptures as you have not offered any interpretation. Our disagreement is between religious doctrines and traditions of a religion you have chosen, VS. what the Holy Scriptures actually say.

I just want to make it clear that I am not saying to follow me, nor am I promoting any religious franchise. I am simply pointing out the written dangers of trusting in the religious philosophies of men, especially when we have HIS Word in our own homes.

You keep on missing the whole point, you are just another one of those voices claiming to posses the correct interpretation yet most of your theology is blatant heresy and I would even go so far as to call it blasphemy.

You claim that all we need to do is read the Bible for ourselves and live by what the Bible says. Well do you stone your child for being lazy as the Bible instructs, do you stone homosexuals as the Bible teaches. See you and every other self appointed Bible expert, cherry pick the Bible and dump everything that God said down the toilet if it doesn't conform to your standard. This is idolatry because you have created a god in your own mind who doesn't exist.

This is what all those 40,000 sects, cults and false teachers do. If you claim to live by the Bible then start doing what it teaches and don't just twist it to suit yourself.

 

[Studyman]

You keep on missing the whole point, you are just another one of those voices claiming to posses the correct interpretation yet most of your theology is blatant heresy and I would even go so far as to call it blasphemy.

You claim that all we need to do is read the Bible for ourselves and live by what the Bible says. Well do you stone your child for being lazy as the Bible instructs, do you stone homosexuals as the Bible teaches.

God's judgments have already been made, according to HIM, not me. The Law is Spiritual according to Paul, not me. The Congregation of the Lord has already stoned, Spiritually speaking, men who follow their own Lustful desires and refuse to accept God's Definition of Righteousness, according to HIM, not me. That is why men need repentance in the first place, because we have all sinned against God, and are dead because of it, according to God's Word, not me. And Jesus is the only place to receive atonement, and live again, according to the Word's of the Bible, not me.

So you are calling me a heretic, because I believe what the Christ tells me?

How original!!

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (You) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

How many sinners did Paul stone to death? Are you preaching that Paul is lying when he says he believes the same thing I say I believe?

Who taught you that in order to follow God's Word I must stone sinners to death?

I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the God of the Bible, it was the "other" voice..

See you and every other self appointed Bible expert, cherry pick the Bible and dump everything that God said down the toilet if it doesn't conform to your standard. This is idolatry because you have created a god in your own mind who doesn't exist.

This is what all those 40,000 sects, cults and false teachers do. If you claim to live by the Bible then start doing what it teaches and don't just twist it to suit yourself.

Of course you will refuse to answer, but how could you possibly know what the Bible says, given you preach to others it is a heresy to read it for yourself? How can you teach people about God when you promote the insidious falsehood that in order to follow the God of the Bible I must stone people to death?

What Word's of God did I flush down the toilet? Or do you belong to a church in which telling lies about people and accusing them with no support or proof, is considered righteous?

You might look in the mirror and ask yourself why you are so angry at a man who simply said to trust "Every Word" of God.

 

[Dan1988]

God's judgments have already been made, according to HIM, not me. The Law is Spiritual according to Paul, not me. The Congregation of the Lord has already stoned, Spiritually speaking, men who follow their own Lustful desires and refuse to accept God's Definition of Righteousness, according to HIM, not me. That is why men need repentance in the first place, because we have all sinned against God, and are dead because of it, according to God's Word, not me. And Jesus is the only place to receive atonement, and live again, according to the Word's of the Bible, not me.

So you are calling me a heretic, because I believe what the Christ tells me?

How original!!

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (You) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

How many sinners did Paul stone to death? Are you preaching that Paul is lying when he says he believes the same thing I say I believe?

Who taught you that in order to follow God's Word I must stone sinners to death?

I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the God of the Bible, it was the "other" voice..



Of course you will refuse to answer, but how could you possibly know what the Bible says, given you preach to others it is a heresy to read it for yourself? How can you teach people about God when you promote the insidious falsehood that in order to follow the God of the Bible I must stone people to death?

What Word's of God did I flush down the toilet? Or do you belong to a church in which telling lies about people and accusing them with no support or proof, is considered righteous?

You might look in the mirror and ask yourself why you are so angry at a man who simply said to trust "Every Word" of God.

You don't trust every word of the Lord, you just cherry pick the Bible and twist every scripture to make it conform to your desire. You have obviously never read the whole Bible, since you've never read about stoning.
This is the problem we have with self appointed experts like yourself, your only motive concerning the Holy Scriptures is a selfish one, where you set yourself up as the final authority over all matters instead of giving God the glory He deserves.
You refuse to address those scriptures which don't line up with your expectations, that tells me that you have placed yourself above everyone else including God and that's very sad to see.

 

[Studyman]

You don't trust every word of the Lord, you just cherry pick the Bible and twist every scripture to make it conform to your desire. You have obviously never read the whole Bible, since you've never read about stoning.

It is precisely because I do study God's Word, as instructed, that I have an understanding as to what the Spiritual meaning is behind stoning. You don't provide any alternative view point of stoning, only ridicule and insults.

It seems a simply common decency for you to provide even one example of where I have cherry picked the scriptures. But you are free to walk in any religious practice you please.

This is the problem we have with self appointed experts like yourself, your only motive concerning the Holy Scriptures is a selfish one, where you set yourself up as the final authority over all matters instead of giving God the glory He deserves.

Actually I set God's Words as the final source of truth. You seem very angry and bitter. Maybe it would be helpful for you to commune with the Christ of the Bible.

Lev. 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

You refuse to address those scriptures which don't line up with your expectations, that tells me that you have placed yourself above everyone else including God and that's very sad to see.

It would be helpful if you would provide even one example of your accusations, or one Scripture that I refuse to address. But again, you are free to partake in any religious practice you want.

May the God of the Bible lead us both into His truth.

 

[Dan1988]

It is precisely because I do study God's Word, as instructed, that I have an understanding as to what the Spiritual meaning is behind stoning. You don't provide any alternative view point of stoning, only ridicule and insults.

It seems a simply common decency for you to provide even one example of where I have cherry picked the scriptures. But you are free to walk in any religious practice you please.



Actually I set God's Words as the final source of truth. You seem very angry and bitter. Maybe it would be helpful for you to commune with the Christ of the Bible.

Lev. 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.



It would be helpful if you would provide even one example of your accusations, or one Scripture that I refuse to address. But again, you are free to partake in any religious practice you want.

May the God of the Bible lead us both into His truth.

As I have already explained, you cherry pick the Bible from cover to cover and if you don't like something you simply twist it and spiritualize it until it becomes something completely different and palatable for you.

You ignore the scriptures where God's Word teaches the importance of Church membership and submitting to a shepherd/pastor/teacher. You ignore the scriptures teaching about roaming around like the rouge sheep and not been joined to the safety of the herd with the shepherd.

See you have taken the law into your own hands and turned your back on God and His Church. You have set your self up as the final authority over all things and that's extremely arrogant.

The most dangerous thing a "Christian" can do is leave the flock and go out into Satan's territory as a lamb to the slaughter.

You need to find yourself a shepherd and join the flock because you are nothing more than a lost sheep.

 

[Studyman]

As I have already explained, you cherry pick the Bible from cover to cover and if you don't like something you simply twist it and spiritualize it until it becomes something completely different and palatable for you.

You ignore the scriptures where God's Word teaches the importance of Church membership and submitting to a shepherd/pastor/teacher. You ignore the scriptures teaching about roaming around like the rouge sheep and not been joined to the safety of the herd with the shepherd.

See you have taken the law into your own hands and turned your back on God and His Church. You have set your self up as the final authority over all things and that's extremely arrogant.

The most dangerous thing a "Christian" can do is leave the flock and go out into Satan's territory as a lamb to the slaughter.

You need to find yourself a shepherd and join the flock because you are nothing more than a lost sheep.

Well I think your preaching that I can only be saved if I follow the teaching of the Pope, though a very popular shepherd, can not be justified by any scriptures.

Also, you continually place a wicked judgment on me using your own words, Accusations without proof. The Jesus of the Bible would never condone such wickedness.

And I do not believe the Word of God is satan's territory, though I can see how satan might want to convince folks it is.

It seems you are a confused, bitter, angry man who accuses me of not following God because I don't stone people in one breath, and then in another breath accuse me of taking God's Law in my own hands.

You are free to follow the Pope if you like, but I only trust One Shepherd.

I'm sticking with the Shepherd of the Bible.

 

[Hawkins]

The whole passage is,

Romans 11:25-32 (NIV2011)
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Just as the gentiles once opposing God, who are now receiving mercy through the New Covenant. So are the Jews opposing the gospel to be the enemies of Christians, but in terms of election they are still loved on account of the patriarchs. They are opposing the gospel in the same way as how gentiles being disobedient. However, gentiles will be saved if they choose to be Christians. Similarly God may have a way to save the Jews as He promised (which is irrevocable).

God may not give up on those belong to His chosen people but still loyal to Him. Nothing is taken out of context to view the passage this way.

From my speculation, the trick is,

Paul ever mentioned Abraham and David, in terms of how they are saved by faith, but what faith in terms of covenants? Faith is about God's grace. This grace however doesn't come from the Mosaic covenant where Abraham was born before it while David is a murderer and adulterer. There is something else which is a grace as a part of a covenant. Moreover, what are the patriarchs?

Saved by faith is a unique feature of the New Covenant. So at least the New Covenant can save both Abraham and David if something is specified in this New Covenant. What is it?

It is simple. God's witnesses such as the prophets can be saved by faith when such a judgment is carried out subjectively by God and Jesus (who love the Jews on account of the patriarchs). Now it boils down to who are God's witnesses under the scope of a covenant (again, at least in terms of the New Covenant)?

Isaiah 43:12-13 (NIV2011)
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?”

The plural witnesses is the Jews who are put under the scope of God's witnesses. "who can reverse it?" as God's gift to them is irrevocable.

Romans 11:29 (NIV2011)
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Are today's Jews still loyal to God? Some of them are no doubt!

Are they saved?
In terms of the Mosaic Covenant then, No. They don't even have the Temple to perform an atonement sacrifice.

In terms of New Covenant then, they are no Christians. However there's still room in terms of God's chosen witnesses. The Patriarchs (more than 70 Jews in terms of covenants) are all God's chosen witnesses as well.

 

[Dan1988]

Well I think your preaching that I can only be saved if I follow the teaching of the Pope, though a very popular shepherd, can not be justified by any scriptures.

Also, you continually place a wicked judgment on me using your own words, Accusations without proof. The Jesus of the Bible would never condone such wickedness.

And I do not believe the Word of God is satan's territory, though I can see how satan might want to convince folks it is.

It seems you are a confused, bitter, angry man who accuses me of not following God because I don't stone people in one breath, and then in another breath accuse me of taking God's Law in my own hands.

You are free to follow the Pope if you like, but I only trust One Shepherd.

I'm sticking with the Shepherd of the Bible.

I have given you proof many times over, but you ignore it just as you ignore what God has said.
As they say, ignorance is bliss.

You haven't given me a single Bible verse which supports your self invented, self centered religion.

It's quite obvious you've closed the door on God's Word and become a law onto yourself. If you don't believe what God has said, then we have nothing to discuss.

 

[Studyman]

I have given you proof many times over, but you ignore it just as you ignore what God has said.
As they say, ignorance is bliss.

You have provided nothing but your own words to promote your own religious philosophy, including "Ignorance is bliss", another phrase of man. You have provided no Biblical proof at all to promote your own religious philosophy. It seems prudent that when you brag about something you might actually have some proof to that which you brag. Just as when you accuse someone, you might actually have some proof of the accusation.

You seem so bitter and hateful. I truly hope you are able to overcome such un-Godly behavior. I might suggest that you actually "Study" the Word's of God yourself, as Paul instructs.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[QUOTE
You haven't given me a single Bible verse which supports your self invented, self centered religion. [/QUOTE]

Honesty is an important part of being faithful to God. Honestly, I didn't provide a single verse that supports YOUR Religious Philosophy. But I provided many Scriptures which teach men to trust the Word's of God, a teaching I fully believe in.

You didn't provide a single scripture, only your own words, to promote your religion. I'm sure you have faith in them, but surely you can see why a man should "obey God rather than men", a verse I also posted in support of my Faith.

You are free to pick a man of your choosing as your shepherd from the thousands of other voices in the garden as you wish. But i am sticking to the Christ Inspired Word's of the Holy Scriptures as Paul instructs. If you are interested in Paul's words, you can find his words regarding the Holy Scriptures posted in my replies to you.

It's quite obvious you've closed the door on God's Word and become a law onto yourself. If you don't believe what God has said, then we have nothing to discuss.

I've closed the door to the Pope, and his many, many religious daughters, one of which has bewitched you it seems. I embrace the Word's of God as my posts clearly show.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I (The Christ of the Bible, not random preachers) speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I would bid you God speed, but I am forbidden to do so.

 

[Dan1988]

You have provided nothing but your own words to promote your own religious philosophy, including "Ignorance is bliss", another phrase of man. You have provided no Biblical proof at all to promote your own religious philosophy. It seems prudent that when you brag about something you might actually have some proof to that which you brag. Just as when you accuse someone, you might actually have some proof of the accusation.

You seem so bitter and hateful. I truly hope you are able to overcome such un-Godly behavior. I might suggest that you actually "Study" the Word's of God yourself, as Paul instructs.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[QUOTE
You haven't given me a single Bible verse which supports your self invented, self centered religion.

Honesty is an important part of being faithful to God. Honestly, I didn't provide a single verse that supports YOUR Religious Philosophy. But I provided many Scriptures which teach men to trust the Word's of God, a teaching I fully believe in.

You didn't provide a single scripture, only your own words, to promote your religion. I'm sure you have faith in them, but surely you can see why a man should "obey God rather than men", a verse I also posted in support of my Faith.

You are free to pick a man of your choosing as your shepherd from the thousands of other voices in the garden as you wish. But i am sticking to the Christ Inspired Word's of the Holy Scriptures as Paul instructs. If you are interested in Paul's words, you can find his words regarding the Holy Scriptures posted in my replies to you.



I've closed the door to the Pope, and his many, many religious daughters, one of which has bewitched you it seems. I embrace the Word's of God as my posts clearly show.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I (The Christ of the Bible, not random preachers) speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I would bid you God speed, but I am forbidden to do so.[/QUOTE]
You seem to have a problem with honesty, you refuse to admit that you don't believe what God has actually said and you have simply done what every heretic does and that's cherry pick Bible verses out of their context and create a false religion with them.

You attack Jesus and His Church but Jesus promised in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it. So good luck with your attack on His Church, I hope you are more powerful then the gates of hell.

It's painfully obvious that you choose to ignore what God's Word teaches, you would rather take verses and isolate them from their context then impose your own perverted view upon them in order to justify your sinful selfish agenda.

As I mentioned before, if you refuse to believe what God has said, we have nothing to discuss.

 

[ChristServant]

Romans 11:25–27 (NASB95)
25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.”

Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a challenge for modern Christian. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, can anyone answer the three questions I post below?

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Can anyone respond to these questions contextually?

Note: *All Israel does not mean modern and secular Israel. Let's keep that in mind before we respond to what Paul was saying.

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?

Answer. I believe this to be the hardening of their hearts towards the Gospel(good news) of Christ their and our Savior. As GOD hardened the heart of Pharoah against Israel in Egypt for HIS glory.

2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?

Answer. I believe this to be a time when there are no more gentiles that will follow Christ so no more are called. Simliar to the situation in sodom and gomorrah, there were none left worthy to be saved. Scripture tells us we were chosen from the beginning.

3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

I believe all Israel will be saved when Christ comes and they believe who He really is. It states in scripture they will mourn for what they had done to Him. So it would seem all Israel would be those of the house of Israel that believe who Christ really is, their Messiah who they have been waiting for.

10"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn



We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

Peace be with all those in the body of Christ

 

[ralliann]

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?

Answer. I believe this to be the hardening of their hearts towards the Gospel(good news) of Christ their and our Savior. As GOD hardened the heart of Pharoah against Israel in Egypt for HIS glory.

I think you are correct. I just do not see the thought being carried through concerning the Gentiles (i.e. Nations) in the next line.
Israel was brought out of Egypt to fulfill the promise to his covenant made with their Father Abraham.

2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?

Answer. I believe this to be a time when there are no more gentiles that will follow Christ so no more are called. Simliar to the situation in sodom and gomorrah, there were none left worthy to be saved. Scripture tells us we were chosen from the beginning.

I think the covenant promise spoke concerning Abraham to be made a father of many Nations (ie Gentiles) is the context. The time to fulfill or bring to fulfillment the promises made to Abraham continues but concerning the nations as spoken here
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

 

[garee]

Not all Israel is born again Israel. The bride of Christ, the church. Just as all who name themselves Christian are not the bride of Christ, the church as born again . Same with the word Jew .A Jew born again is one inwardly not according to the flesh outwardly .

We walk by the faith of Christ the unseen eternal.

God propmised to give her a new name in Isaiah 62 to represent all the nations of the world after the first century reformation. (Hebrew 9)

When he made Kings venerable men that lord it over the non venerable flock desolate as well as the building made with human hands.(the abomination of desolation) Restoring the order to the time of Judges .No kings the pagan foundation.

He renamed her Christian in the book of Acts. A more befitting name to represent all the nations as the new kingdom of priest men and woman from all nations . "Christian", a word with no other meaning added simply means; "residents of the heavenly city (Zion) prepared as His bride the church". Named after her founder and Husband Christ.

The names are exchangeable. In Revelation twice we are informed that some outward Jews according to the flesh were not inward Jews as those born again .

Its not a matter of DNA or global position the temporal things of men. Eternal God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form.

 

[Guojing]

It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.

I have tried to point out the the truth that we have 40,000 different interpretations of scripture and each one is exactly the same as you. They all say as you do, "my understanding and interpretation, is the only correct one and the other 39,999 are all wrong".

I'm surprised you can't see this, everyone believes they posses the truth and they have entered by the narrow gate. You say God's Word is simple to understand, but the reality is there are 40,000 ways to understand it, our pastor says that it's a good thing to have so many diverse denominations. He said watch out for those like you who claim that their view is the only one that's right.

I spoke to my pastor about this very subject, and he said that most people will hold to their view at any cost and they will go to the grave holding it because they have invested their whole life and energy into what they believe to be true. So most people have closed the door on accepting another version, they put up barriers and defenses as soon as they hear something different to what they have invested their whole lives into. They're not interested in the truth of the matter, because they already believe they posses the real truth.

So we can't just say, "the bible says this or that" because this and that can be understood in 40,000 different ways.

God won't judge anyone upon how well they have understood scripture. Our pastor said we don't need to read the bible or hold the right view to be saved, since the vast majority of saved people had never read a single word of the bible.

Jesus said, "believe in me and ye shall be saved" so that's good enough for me. He never said believe in Me and study the bible and hold the right view and ye shall be saved.

We should never study the bible by ourselves as you seem to do, we need a shepherd to guide us in our study or we will get lost and end up as that rouge lost sheep who the hungry lion had for lunch.

Nice, this post of yours should be a sticky at the beginning of every intense discussion thread.

 

[Davy]

Romans 11:25–27 (NASB95)
25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.”

Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a challenge for modern Christian. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, can anyone answer the three questions I post below?

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Can anyone respond to these questions contextually?

Note: *All Israel does not mean modern and secular Israel. Let's keep that in mind before we respond to what Paul was saying.

1. Paul was pointing to his brethren the Jews. To this day, the majority of Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

One of the problems also with this, is many brethren do not understand who the Jews represent. Apostle Paul himself was born of the tribe of Benjamin, and the title of 'Jew' originates from the tribe of Judah. So how could Paul call himself a Jew? It's because per 1 Kings 11 forward, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The southern kingdom of Judah wound up being the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and these are those called 'Jews'. The northern kingdom of Israel were not called Jews, and they made up the actual majority of Israelites. Because of how the northern kingdom rebelled against God, He scattered them among the Gentiles, where they still are to this day, and only the Jews of the kingdom of Judah were left in the land. That is who the majority of the nation of Israel are today, just Jews of the old southern kingdom and converts to Judaism. They only represent the "house of Judah".

Per Romans 11, God blinded the majority of the Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Yet Paul said God's calling and election is without repentance, meaning He still will not go back on His promises to them.

2. The fullness of the Gentiles represents the time when all Gentiles that are going to accept Christ Jesus will be complete. That of course won't be completed until the day of Christ's return.

3. The way all Israel will be saved, is when Jesus returns and they look upon Him, and realize who they had rejected. Will that be all Jews? No, because there are portions of Jews that are not blood-born Israelites, but were from different peoples that were strangers in Israel, some of them having been born of the Canaanite nation left-overs, and others from Edom (Esau's seed), and still those from other nations that have converted to Judaism. Zechariah 12 reveals how many of God's chosen that rejected Jesus will mourn for Him like a long lost son.

We are to remember then, per Paul, that God has blinded the majority of Jews until Jesus returns, so their disbelief is not completely of their own doing, thus we are not to judge them.

 

[Guojing]

1. Paul was pointing to his brethren the Jews. To this day, the majority of Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

One of the problems also with this, is many brethren do not understand who the Jews represent. Apostle Paul himself was born of the tribe of Benjamin, and the title of 'Jew' originates from the tribe of Judah. So how could Paul call himself a Jew? It's because per 1 Kings 11 forward, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The southern kingdom of Judah wound up being the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and these are those called 'Jews'. The northern kingdom of Israel were not called Jews, and they made up the actual majority of Israelites. Because of how the northern kingdom rebelled against God, He scattered them among the Gentiles, where they still are to this day, and only the Jews of the kingdom of Judah were left in the land. That is who the majority of the nation of Israel are today, just Jews of the old southern kingdom and converts to Judaism. They only represent the "house of Judah".

Per Romans 11, God blinded the majority of the Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Yet Paul said God's calling and election is without repentance, meaning He still will not go back on His promises to them.

2. The fullness of the Gentiles represents the time when all Gentiles that are going to accept Christ Jesus will be complete. That of course won't be completed until the day of Christ's return.

3. The way all Israel will be saved, is when Jesus returns and they look upon Him, and realize who they had rejected. Will that be all Jews? No, because there are portions of Jews that are not blood-born Israelites, but were from different peoples that were strangers in Israel, some of them having been born of the Canaanite nation left-overs, and others from Edom (Esau's seed), and still those from other nations that have converted to Judaism. Zechariah 12 reveals how many of God's chosen that rejected Jesus will mourn for Him like a long lost son.

We are to remember then, per Paul, that God has blinded the majority of Jews until Jesus returns, so their disbelief is not completely of their own doing, thus we are not to judge them.

Its strange that you understand all these, but still call us in the Body of Christ as Israel.

Wouldn't that make the interpretation of this part of Romans 11 strange to you?

that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved;

 

[Davy]

Its strange that you understand all these, but still call us in the Body of Christ as Israel.

Wouldn't that make the interpretation of this part of Romans 11 strange to you?

that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved;

No, it's not strange that those in Christ Jesus are the true Israel of God. Apostle Paul even told you this in Romans 9, if you would only believe it.

And only those of the seed of Israel who believe on Jesus Christ will be saved, let's not forget that requirement Paul also made in Romans 11.

One who has studied all their Bible will easily after a while begin to see how God chose a certain seed among the children of Israel to be in care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ for the benefit of all... nations and peoples, not just the seed of the nation of Israel. That is part of the very Blessings God first gave to Abraham involving The Gospel. Apostle Paul reiterates that in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about how The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that God made Abraham a father of many nations, to include Gentile nations. And again in Romans 9, Paul shows this again in final that God's true Israel are not those of the flesh, but those in the Promise, meaning those who believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So understanding this per the written Scripture is not difficult at all. And for a believer on Jesus Christ, this especially should be easy to understand, regardless of their nation of birth.

 

[Guojing]

No, it's not strange that those in Christ Jesus are the true Israel of God. Apostle Paul even told you this in Romans 9, if you would only believe it.

And only those of the seed of Israel who believe on Jesus Christ will be saved, let's not forget that requirement Paul also made in Romans 11.

One who has studied all their Bible will easily after a while begin to see how God chose a certain seed among the children of Israel to be in care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ for the benefit of all... nations and peoples, not just the seed of the nation of Israel. That is part of the very Blessings God first gave to Abraham involving The Gospel. Apostle Paul reiterates that in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about how The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that God made Abraham a father of many nations, to include Gentile nations. And again in Romans 9, Paul shows this again in final that God's true Israel are not those of the flesh, but those in the Promise, meaning those who believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So understanding this per the written Scripture is not difficult at all. And for a believer on Jesus Christ, this especially should be easy to understand, regardless of their nation of birth.

So when Paul said Israel is currently blind, and you believe the Body of Christ is Israel, is the Body of Christ blind as well NOW?