THE QUESTION ABOUT COVENANT ISRAEL

William Lefranc

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Romans 11:25–27 (NASB95)
25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.”


Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a challenge for modern Christian. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, can anyone answer the three questions I post below?


1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Can anyone respond to these questions contextually?

Note: *All Israel does not mean modern and secular Israel. Let's keep that in mind before we respond to what Paul was saying.
 

Pavel Mosko

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1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?

1) Is simply acknowledging that only a fraction of Israel accepted Jesus as Messiah.


2) Is more problematic. People tend to read it literally, that there will be some ultimate time, when Gentiles will no longer be receptive to the Gospel. We kind of are sort of getting there now, where we are in a "Post Christian Society".


3) The expectation is that Christ will reveal himself to modern Israel and Judaism. Basically that when he defeats the anti-Christ etc. they will essentially embrace Him as their savior.
 
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pdudgeon

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1) Is simply acknowledging that only a fraction of Israel accepted Jesus as Messiah.


2) Is more problematic. People tend to read it literally, that there will be some ultimate time, when Gentiles will no longer be receptive to the Gospel. We kind of are sort of getting there now, where we are in a "Post Christian Society".


3) The expectation is that Christ will reveal himself to modern Israel and Judaism. Basically that when he defeats the anti-Christ etc. they will essentially embrace Him as their savior.

good answers!

On number 3, you forgot to mention the Prophet sent by God to Jerusalem to open the OT scriptures to them, and show them how Jesus was their long awaited Savior. That testimony is the "book end" that completes the salvation story that was first begun with Jesus' presence in the Temple, when He went after the Sadducees, and they turned away from His message.

That completion of Jesus' Second coming is how Israel is saved.
 
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Dan1988

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Romans 11:25–27 (NASB95)
25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.”


Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a challenge for modern Christian. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, can anyone answer the three questions I post below?


1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Can anyone respond to these questions contextually?

Note: *All Israel does not mean modern and secular Israel. Let's keep that in mind before we respond to what Paul was saying.
1. Partial hardening sounds quite simple, it sounds like God will harden a segment of national Israel.

2. Fullness of the Gentiles, sounds like a time when the last Gentile is added to the Church.

3. All Israel, sounds like the entire Bride of Christ combined. All Israel would include believers from every age and ethnic group combined as one body of Christ.
 
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eleos1954

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1. Partial hardening sounds quite simple, it sounds like God will harden a segment of national Israel.

2. Fullness of the Gentiles, sounds like a time when the last Gentile is added to the Church.

3. All Israel, sounds like the entire Bride of Christ combined. All Israel would include believers from every age and ethnic group combined as one body of Christ.


="Dan1988, post: 75290362, member: 411246"]1. Partial hardening sounds quite simple, it sounds like God will harden a segment of national Israel.

Agree ... the Orthodox Jews that continue to deny Jesus as Messiah.. is the partial hardening .... this does not include Messianic Jews.

2. Fullness of the Gentiles, sounds like a time when the last Gentile is added to the Church.

Agree , the fulness of the Gentiles happens just before Jesus returns.

. All Israel, sounds like the entire Bride of Christ combined. All Israel would include believers from every age and ethnic group combined as one body of Christ.

Correct all the saved from all time.
 
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...1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved? ..

I think partial hardening means, they are temporarily hardened. And “fullness of the Gentiles” means the whole group of gentiles that accept Jesus and are loyal to him. So, when the number of gentiles that will follow Jesus is full, then the situation with Israel will change. And it seems to me that the change is already happening.

But “all Israel”, I am not sure about that. It could mean the whole land of Israel, or the descendants of Jacob, who is also called Israel.
 
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Studyman

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Romans 11:25–27 (NASB95)
25 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them When I take away their sins.”


Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a challenge for modern Christian. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, can anyone answer the three questions I post below?


1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Can anyone respond to these questions contextually?

Note: *All Israel does not mean modern and secular Israel. Let's keep that in mind before we respond to what Paul was saying.

Very good question.

Please consider these words from Paul.

Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And again.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Paul is telling us the Exodus was written for OUR examples.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Paul was the preacher unto the Gentiles. He is saying here that the Story of the Exodus from Egypt and those that fell in the wilderness was written for us, who are Gentiles. For our admonition.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentiles) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So it seems The Law and Prophets were specifically written for us, and we are not to be ignorant that Israel's stubbornness happened "in part", to teach not only Israel, but more importantly, Gentiles. As Paul also says.

Rom. 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; (True) because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Notice the Tree is the same Tree they were broken off from, the same Tree Gentiles are Grafted into, and partake of.

A very good question and discussion for men to have in these evil times.
 
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Dan1988

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Agree ... the Orthodox Jews that continue to deny Jesus as Messiah.. is the partial hardening .... this does not include Messianic Jews.



Agree , the fulness of the Gentiles happens just before Jesus returns.



Correct all the saved from all time.
Eschatology (or the study of end times) has caused a lot of unnecessary division among denominations. We have had Church members leave because they don't agree with our position regarding the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
There are 4 different views of this, but it shouldn't divide the Church. The Church has never been more divided over non essential doctrine.
 
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eleos1954

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Eschatology (or the study of end times) has caused a lot of unnecessary division among denominations. We have had Church members leave because they don't agree with our position regarding the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
There are 4 different views of this, but it shouldn't divide the Church. The Church has never been more divided over non essential doctrine.

If a church doesn't believe eschatology is essential then why teach it at all?

All of His Word is essential.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

The Book of Revelation is the revelation and testimony of Jesus himself .... how can that not be essential?

Revelation 1

1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw.

This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
 
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Dan1988

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If a church doesn't believe eschatology is essential then why teach it at all?

All of His Word is essential.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

The Book of Revelation is the revelation and testimony of Jesus himself .... how can that not be essential?

Revelation 1

1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw.

This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
That's all well and good but the reality is the vast majority of Christians never read a single word of scripture. Our salvation has nothing to do with how well we know and understand the scriptures. Jesus said whoever believes in Me shall be saved, so all we need to do is believe in Him and we will be saved. I'm sure He would have added "and studies scripture shall be saved".

There are countless Christian denominations, each having different interpretations and each claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one. If salvation was dependent on cracking the code and having the right interpretation, then only those with an IQ of over 140 would be saved.

God is not impressed with how smart or talented we think we are, He looks upon the heart.
 
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eleos1954

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That's all well and good but the reality is the vast majority of Christians never read a single word of scripture. Our salvation has nothing to do with how well we know and understand the scriptures. Jesus said whoever believes in Me shall be saved, so all we need to do is believe in Him and we will be saved. I'm sure He would have added "and studies scripture shall be saved".

There are countless Christian denominations, each having different interpretations and each claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one. If salvation was dependent on cracking the code and having the right interpretation, then only those with an IQ of over 140 would be saved.

God is not impressed with how smart or talented we think we are, He looks upon the heart.

There is a lot entailed in who one who "believes" or who is a believer ... it's not just believing that He exists.

Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Acts 17:11-12
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

His written Word is the main way He communicates with us. He wants us to know/learn all about Him and His ways. Through His Word is how we become closer to Him

Jesus said whoever believes in Me shall be saved, so all we need to do is believe in Him and we will be saved

If this is all there is to it .... then no need for the bible at all.

1 Peter 2:21
Berean Study Bible
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps

How does one know how to follow in His footsteps if they don't learn what His footsteps are?

The book of revelation is revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must take place ... He wants us to know what will soon take place.

Revelation was originally written to seven struggling churches to help them endure in the faith. Therefore, Revelation is in our Bibles today to help us press on in our walk with Christ.

True there is symbolic prophesy in it (also a lot that is not) ... He wants us to know what is yet to come and to be "awake" and be prepared to endure for what is yet to come. Warns of deceptions that will occur .... else the elect possibly be deceived.

... the vast majority of Christians never read a single word of scripture

how sad this is .... very sad ... His Word is a masterpiece to be cherished and carried in our hearts.
 
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Studyman

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That's all well and good but the reality is the vast majority of Christians never read a single word of scripture.

This was also true for the religious men in Jesus time. In fact, they couldn't even LOOK at the bible. They had to rely on preachers to tell them the truth about God. But Jesus said these preachers were not teaching HIS Truth, but theirs.

"Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men".

But now Jesus has made it possible for each one of us to hear HIS Word without the filter of another voice. We have the Holy Scriptures in our own homes, for those interested in hearing what HE really has to say. Yet it seems "many" prefer the old covenant where God's Laws were administered by Priests and preachers. Choosing to let others define His Gospel for them. Jesus was especially concerned about this.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus could have warned of Atheist's or Islam here, but HE didn't. He Specifically pointed out a "religion" in which it's preachers "Come in HIS name" and who preach that Jesus is indeed the Christ.

So how can we Take Heed?

By studying HIS WORD our self.

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Our salvation has nothing to do with how well we know and understand the scriptures. Jesus said whoever believes in Me shall be saved, so all we need to do is believe in Him and we will be saved. I'm sure He would have added "and studies scripture shall be saved".

Jesus said many things.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These men most certainly believed in Jesus.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So it seems pretty important, if we believe in Jesus, to know what iniquity is. How would we find this knowledge? Shall we trust this important issue to some random religious man claiming to come in HIS Name?


24 Therefore whosoever ( Jew or Gentile) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: (Endured to the end) for it was founded upon a rock.

How can we hear HIS Sayings without His Holy Scriptures?

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: (Did not endure to the end) and great was the fall of it.

Jesus made HIS Holy Scriptures available to all for a reason. At least the Jesus of the Bible did. We should study them our self to understand HIS Definition of "Believe".


There are countless Christian denominations, each having different interpretations and each claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one. If salvation was dependent on cracking the code and having the right interpretation, then only those with an IQ of over 140 would be saved.

The Pharisees did the exact same thing. They had this sect and that, all promoting some version of God. Jesus tells us what they did wrong if we would only believe Him.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

And again;

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If my only understanding of Jesus comes from what some self proclaimed religious man "who comes in Jesus' Name" tells me, how can I know if it is the Jesus of the Bible?

Even a child who reads or hears God's Word can understand it, if they are truly seeking HIM. It doesn't take an IQ of 140 to "hunger and thirst for righteousness".

God is not impressed with how smart or talented we think we are, He looks upon the heart.

True. God is impressed by those men who "Deny themselves" and follow Him.
 
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Dan1988

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This was also true for the religious men in Jesus time. In fact, they couldn't even LOOK at the bible. They had to rely on preachers to tell them the truth about God. But Jesus said these preachers were not teaching HIS Truth, but theirs.

"Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men".

But now Jesus has made it possible for each one of us to hear HIS Word without the filter of another voice. We have the Holy Scriptures in our own homes, for those interested in hearing what HE really has to say. Yet it seems "many" prefer the old covenant where God's Laws were administered by Priests and preachers. Choosing to let others define His Gospel for them. Jesus was especially concerned about this.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus could have warned of Atheist's or Islam here, but HE didn't. He Specifically pointed out a "religion" in which it's preachers "Come in HIS name" and who preach that Jesus is indeed the Christ.

So how can we Take Heed?

By studying HIS WORD our self.

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



Jesus said many things.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These men most certainly believed in Jesus.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So it seems pretty important, if we believe in Jesus, to know what iniquity is. How would we find this knowledge? Shall we trust this important issue to some random religious man claiming to come in HIS Name?


24 Therefore whosoever ( Jew or Gentile) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: (Endured to the end) for it was founded upon a rock.

How can we hear HIS Sayings without His Holy Scriptures?

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: (Did not endure to the end) and great was the fall of it.

Jesus made HIS Holy Scriptures available to all for a reason. At least the Jesus of the Bible did. We should study them our self to understand HIS Definition of "Believe".




The Pharisees did the exact same thing. They had this sect and that, all promoting some version of God. Jesus tells us what they did wrong if we would only believe Him.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

And again;

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If my only understanding of Jesus comes from what some self proclaimed religious man "who comes in Jesus' Name" tells me, how can I know if it is the Jesus of the Bible?

Even a child who reads or hears God's Word can understand it, if they are truly seeking HIM. It doesn't take an IQ of 140 to "hunger and thirst for righteousness".



True. God is impressed by those men who "Deny themselves" and follow Him.
That's all well and good but it's not biblical and it's extremely dangerous.

You're suggesting that I trust in my own wisdom and understanding, but God said "cursed is the one who relies on his own understanding".

See you missed my whole point, I tried to explain the problem with fallen sinful men which you and I are each a part of. The statistics show that there are around 40,000 different Christian organisations, each of these has a different interpretation of the Bible and they all say the same silly thing as you just did. They say "trust in me, I have the correct interpretation", so with all due respect I will just throw your advice in the same basket case as the other 40,000 opposing views.

God said cursed is the man who trusts in man, so I don't trust you because your judgement is perverted just as every other mans. I'd rather trust in Jesus, because He never said we have to crack any code to make it heaven. He simply said "believe in Me and ye shall be saved" and that's good enough for me. Your welcome to join those 40,000 who push their view as the only valid one.

Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" then people like you come along and seek to burden me with you Pharisaical gospel of works. We are not saved by graduating from bible college. I heard a minister say " if you give the bible to 50 people who have never read it before, you would get 50 different views".

I think it's very presumptive of you to think that God will be impressed with your ability to understand the scriptures. Have you ever considered for a moment that your understanding may be fundamentally flawed? Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why God raises up shepherds to lead sheep like you and me or are you a self appointed authority and self sufficient shepherd of yourself?
 
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Studyman

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That's all well and good but it's not biblical and it's extremely dangerous.

You're suggesting that I trust in my own wisdom and understanding, but God said "cursed is the one who relies on his own understanding".

No, I'm not. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying to read and listen to the God of the Bible, not the "other" religious voices in the land we are born into. That is dangerous.

See you missed my whole point, I tried to explain the problem with fallen sinful men which you and I are each a part of.

I know what you are preaching. But God shows me exactly what happen that caused the fall of man. There was "another" voice in the garden, it quoted some of God's Words, it convinced Eve God's Words were not true, and it provided "another gospel" for her to consider. She could have went to God, and "hungered and thirsted" for HIS Righteousness, but she didn't. She relied on her own understanding, and went about to establish her own righteousness.

So God has made HIS Word available to each one of us. It isn't God's Word which causes the division, it's the "other" voice in the garden.

The statistics show that there are around 40,000 different Christian organisations, each of these has a different interpretation of the Bible and they all say the same silly thing as you just did. They say "trust in me, I have the correct interpretation", so with all due respect I will just throw your advice in the same basket case as the other 40,000 opposing views.

This is true, as the Christ Himself warned.

First through His Prophets. One of many such places is this;

Ecc. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And again in the person of Jesus.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So these and many more scriptures are warning, not of Atheists, or Islam, but of self proclaimed "Christians" deceiving men. You can see the hypocrisy, you can see the division and agenda of many of these religious franchises.

This then begs the question; "why do you listen to any of them"? Is the Word of God not sufficient for "instruction in Righteousness"? For Doctrine? For Correction? In your view, is Paul lying to us?

2 Tim. 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Where is there any instruction to pick one of the 40,000 different religions who "come in His Name"? Is the Christ not capable of teaching men without Pharisees? Without Baptist preachers? Without Catholic Priests? I thought Jesus was our High Priest now. Why should we listen to another? What spirit wants us to listen to another?

Eve chose to listen to the "other voice". Her choice doesn't make God's Word void, or incomplete, or imperfect.

God said cursed is the man who trusts in man, so I don't trust you because your judgement is perverted just as every other mans. I'd rather trust in Jesus, because He never said we have to crack any code to make it heaven. He simply said "believe in Me and ye shall be saved" and that's good enough for me. Your welcome to join those 40,000 who push their view as the only valid one.

I have not given you my judgement. I have posted God's Words and desired a discussion about them. The devil believes in Jesus, the "many" who Jesus spoke about in Matt. 7, believed in Jesus. Those deceivers in Matt. 24 Jesus warned of, believes in Jesus.

This is not "MY" judgment. I am simply pointing out what Jesus said. He also told us, both as the Word of God, and as the man Jesus, what the problem was with the mainstream preachers of His Time. They became "Partial" in the Law.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his (God's) mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And again;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Mainstream Preachers of His time, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

I didn't write these Words, I just believe in the Christ who inspired them.

Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" then people like you come along and seek to burden me with you Pharisaical gospel of works. We are not saved by graduating from bible college. I heard a minister say " if you give the bible to 50 people who have never read it before, you would get 50 different views".

It seems you hear a lot of ministers. What if it is the voice of these religious men who is the problem, and not the Word's of the Christ of the Bible? I don't believe in this preacher that you hold up as so wise. But I do believe the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, who also disagrees with this "other voice" you choose to listen to. There is no place in the entire Bible that says if 50 men shut of all the "other" voices in the land, and only read the Holy Scriptures, that they will come up with 50 different gospels. In fact, the Bible implies just the opposite.

Who do the Holy Scriptures say to listen to?

The Jesus of the Bible says to live by "Every Word of God". Is HE telling me the truth here? Or have you been convinced that we can't trust in His Words?

Who does Paul say to listen to? The Holy Scriptures, Yes?

So who has convinced you Paul doesn't know what he is talking about here?


I think it's very presumptive of you to think that God will be impressed with your ability to understand the scriptures. Have you ever considered for a moment that your understanding may be fundamentally flawed?

Absolutely? I was born into a religion just as you were, and Jesus, and Abraham. Don't we all have to choose between the voices of the religions of the land we are born into, and the Words of Almighty God Himself?

Of a truth I presume God's Words are truth, while the "other" religious voices in the land may not be truth. Will God reject me because I believe in Him over the "other" voices in the land? Maybe, but it is my Hope and Faith that HE is the ONE voice that I can Trust, even when the religions around me do not. And I am here to simply have a discussion about what HE says. It isn't my fault that what HE says and what "many" who come in His Name say, are two different things, just as what the serpent said, and what God said were two different things.


Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why God raises up shepherds to lead sheep like you and me or are you a self appointed authority and self sufficient shepherd of yourself?

I don't understand what you are talking about. The "shepherds" God raised for me are the only ones I listen to.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our (Jew and Gentile) examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I'm not, nor have I ever said to listen to me. I just wish to discuss the Holy Scriptures. Is Moses not a Shepherd sent by God? Is Malachi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, not Shepherds sent by God? Is JESUS not a Shepherd sent to the lost sheep? If we could actually have a conversation about the Holy Scriptures, you would answer this question.

Why were there lost sheep? Did God's Word's lead them astray? Or was it religious voices who became Partial in the Law, that turned men away from the God of the Bible?

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

It is precisely because I am not a "self appointed authority and self sufficient shepherd of myself", that I come to these questions.

Let's look at the Scriptures together. Let's have a discussion about them because we "believe" in the warnings of the Christ.

That's all I was asking. If the Holy Scriptures expose a darkness or untruth in our mind about God, then let's rejoice and be thankful we are growing in the knowledge of our Lord. As opposed to protecting and preserving the darkness and untruths because we might be humiliated in the correction.
 
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William Lefranc

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Very good question.

Please consider these words from Paul.

Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And again.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Paul is telling us the Exodus was written for OUR examples.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Paul was the preacher unto the Gentiles. He is saying here that the Story of the Exodus from Egypt and those that fell in the wilderness was written for us, who are Gentiles. For our admonition.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentiles) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So it seems The Law and Prophets were specifically written for us, and we are not to be ignorant that Israel's stubbornness happened "in part", to teach not only Israel, but more importantly, Gentiles. As Paul also says.

Rom. 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; (True) because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Notice the Tree is the same Tree they were broken off from, the same Tree Gentiles are Grafted into, and partake of.

A very good question and discussion for men to have in these evil times.
No, I'm not. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying to read and listen to the God of the Bible, not the "other" religious voices in the land we are born into. That is dangerous.



I know what you are preaching. But God shows me exactly what happen that caused the fall of man. There was "another" voice in the garden, it quoted some of God's Words, it convinced Eve God's Words were not true, and it provided "another gospel" for her to consider. She could have went to God, and "hungered and thirsted" for HIS Righteousness, but she didn't. She relied on her own understanding, and went about to establish her own righteousness.

So God has made HIS Word available to each one of us. It isn't God's Word which causes the division, it's the "other" voice in the garden.



This is true, as the Christ Himself warned.

First through His Prophets. One of many such places is this;

Ecc. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And again in the person of Jesus.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So these and many more scriptures are warning, not of Atheists, or Islam, but of self proclaimed "Christians" deceiving men. You can see the hypocrisy, you can see the division and agenda of many of these religious franchises.

This then begs the question; "why do you listen to any of them"? Is the Word of God not sufficient for "instruction in Righteousness"? For Doctrine? For Correction? In your view, is Paul lying to us?

2 Tim. 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Where is there any instruction to pick one of the 40,000 different religions who "come in His Name"? Is the Christ not capable of teaching men without Pharisees? Without Baptist preachers? Without Catholic Priests? I thought Jesus was our High Priest now. Why should we listen to another? What spirit wants us to listen to another?

Eve chose to listen to the "other voice". Her choice doesn't make God's Word void, or incomplete, or imperfect.



I have not given you my judgement. I have posted God's Words and desired a discussion about them. The devil believes in Jesus, the "many" who Jesus spoke about in Matt. 7, believed in Jesus. Those deceivers in Matt. 24 Jesus warned of, believes in Jesus.

This is not "MY" judgment. I am simply pointing out what Jesus said. He also told us, both as the Word of God, and as the man Jesus, what the problem was with the mainstream preachers of His Time. They became "Partial" in the Law.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his (God's) mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And again;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Mainstream Preachers of His time, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

I didn't write these Words, I just believe in the Christ who inspired them.



It seems you hear a lot of ministers. What if it is the voice of these religious men who is the problem, and not the Word's of the Christ of the Bible? I don't believe in this preacher that you hold up as so wise. But I do believe the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, who also disagrees with this "other voice" you choose to listen to. There is no place in the entire Bible that says if 50 men shut of all the "other" voices in the land, and only read the Holy Scriptures, that they will come up with 50 different gospels. In fact, the Bible implies just the opposite.

Who do the Holy Scriptures say to listen to?

The Jesus of the Bible says to live by "Every Word of God". Is HE telling me the truth here? Or have you been convinced that we can't trust in His Words?

Who does Paul say to listen to? The Holy Scriptures, Yes?

So who has convinced you Paul doesn't know what he is talking about here?




Absolutely? I was born into a religion just as you were, and Jesus, and Abraham. Don't we all have to choose between the voices of the religions of the land we are born into, and the Words of Almighty God Himself?

Of a truth I presume God's Words are truth, while the "other" religious voices in the land may not be truth. Will God reject me because I believe in Him over the "other" voices in the land? Maybe, but it is my Hope and Faith that HE is the ONE voice that I can Trust, even when the religions around me do not. And I am here to simply have a discussion about what HE says. It isn't my fault that what HE says and what "many" who come in His Name say, are two different things, just as what the serpent said, and what God said were two different things.




I don't understand what you are talking about. The "shepherds" God raised for me are the only ones I listen to.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our (Jew and Gentile) examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I'm not, nor have I ever said to listen to me. I just wish to discuss the Holy Scriptures. Is Moses not a Shepherd sent by God? Is Malachi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, not Shepherds sent by God? Is JESUS not a Shepherd sent to the lost sheep? If we could actually have a conversation about the Holy Scriptures, you would answer this question.

Why were there lost sheep? Did God's Word's lead them astray? Or was it religious voices who became Partial in the Law, that turned men away from the God of the Bible?

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

It is precisely because I am not a "self appointed authority and self sufficient shepherd of myself", that I come to these questions.

Let's look at the Scriptures together. Let's have a discussion about them because we "believe" in the warnings of the Christ.

That's all I was asking. If the Holy Scriptures expose a darkness or untruth in our mind about God, then let's rejoice and be thankful we are growing in the knowledge of our Lord. As opposed to protecting and preserving the darkness and untruths because we might be humiliated in the correction.

I asked three simple questions. Can you respond to them instead of writing a book?

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
Answer:
2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
Answer:
3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?

Answer:

Thank you,
 
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William Lefranc

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I think partial hardening means, they are temporarily hardened. And “fullness of the Gentiles” means the whole group of gentiles that accept Jesus and are loyal to him. So, when the number of gentiles that will follow Jesus is full, then the situation with Israel will change. And it seems to me that the change is already happening.

But “all Israel”, I am not sure about that. It could mean the whole land of Israel, or the descendants of Jacob, who is also called Israel.

1) Partial hardening means that a portion of the Jews was coming to Christ in the days of Paul.
2) The fulness of the Gentiles means the number of non-Jews that came to Christ before the OT was closed with the destruction of the temple and the eternal demise of Israel as a covenant nation.
3) "And so all Israel will be saved" (NASB); or "and in this way, all Israel will be saved" (ESV), this verse clearly indicates that since a partial number of Jews were coming to Christ, the rest of them would also come the exact same way, which was by faith in Christ. Once the OT was closed, Israel ceased to be a nation, yet the Jews continued to come to Christ by faith as the rest of the people.

Your response was very well thought out. Thank you for your input.
 

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Studyman

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I asked three simple questions. Can you respond to them instead of writing a book?

1) What did Paul mean by a "partial hardening"?
Answer:


They are not simple questions, and God had the Book Written, not me. I was just trusting it for the answer.

Paul was the preacher unto the Gentiles. He is saying here that the Story of the Exodus from Egypt and those that fell in the wilderness was written for us, who are Gentiles. For our admonition.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentiles) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So it seems The Law and Prophets were specifically written for us, and we are not to be ignorant that Israel's stubbornness happened "in part", to teach Gentiles not to "Lust after the things they lusted after", as it is written.

2) What did Paul mean by the "fullness of the Gentiles?
Answer:


Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

As Paul said, the Law and Prophets were written for the Gentiles. Jesus tells us when the End of this age will come.

Matt. 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; (Gentiles) and then shall the end come. The Fullness of the Gentiles is the end of this age.


3) In what way "will" all Israel* be saved?
Answer:

Thank you,

I don't mean to make the post so long, but it is necessary to allow the God of the Bible to answer your question. These "bones" are Israel that God blinded "in part" to be examples for the Gentiles until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in at the end of days. Then God will look upon all those who HE Blinded, in part, for the Gentiles to learn what not to lust after. God does this because he is a Just and Merciful God not willing that those HE blinded for the benefit of men who would come centuries later, were not slain in vain. And so, All Israel will be saved.

Ez. 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

They died without being able to hear the Word of the Lord because God Blinded them, in Part, until the fullness Gentiles would come in.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

And so "All Israel will be saved".
 
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Dan1988

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No, I'm not. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying to read and listen to the God of the Bible, not the "other" religious voices in the land we are born into. That is dangerous.



I know what you are preaching. But God shows me exactly what happen that caused the fall of man. There was "another" voice in the garden, it quoted some of God's Words, it convinced Eve God's Words were not true, and it provided "another gospel" for her to consider. She could have went to God, and "hungered and thirsted" for HIS Righteousness, but she didn't. She relied on her own understanding, and went about to establish her own righteousness.

So God has made HIS Word available to each one of us. It isn't God's Word which causes the division, it's the "other" voice in the garden.



This is true, as the Christ Himself warned.

First through His Prophets. One of many such places is this;

Ecc. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And again in the person of Jesus.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So these and many more scriptures are warning, not of Atheists, or Islam, but of self proclaimed "Christians" deceiving men. You can see the hypocrisy, you can see the division and agenda of many of these religious franchises.

This then begs the question; "why do you listen to any of them"? Is the Word of God not sufficient for "instruction in Righteousness"? For Doctrine? For Correction? In your view, is Paul lying to us?

2 Tim. 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Where is there any instruction to pick one of the 40,000 different religions who "come in His Name"? Is the Christ not capable of teaching men without Pharisees? Without Baptist preachers? Without Catholic Priests? I thought Jesus was our High Priest now. Why should we listen to another? What spirit wants us to listen to another?

Eve chose to listen to the "other voice". Her choice doesn't make God's Word void, or incomplete, or imperfect.



I have not given you my judgement. I have posted God's Words and desired a discussion about them. The devil believes in Jesus, the "many" who Jesus spoke about in Matt. 7, believed in Jesus. Those deceivers in Matt. 24 Jesus warned of, believes in Jesus.

This is not "MY" judgment. I am simply pointing out what Jesus said. He also told us, both as the Word of God, and as the man Jesus, what the problem was with the mainstream preachers of His Time. They became "Partial" in the Law.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his (God's) mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And again;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Mainstream Preachers of His time, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

I didn't write these Words, I just believe in the Christ who inspired them.



It seems you hear a lot of ministers. What if it is the voice of these religious men who is the problem, and not the Word's of the Christ of the Bible? I don't believe in this preacher that you hold up as so wise. But I do believe the Word's of the Holy Scriptures, who also disagrees with this "other voice" you choose to listen to. There is no place in the entire Bible that says if 50 men shut of all the "other" voices in the land, and only read the Holy Scriptures, that they will come up with 50 different gospels. In fact, the Bible implies just the opposite.

Who do the Holy Scriptures say to listen to?

The Jesus of the Bible says to live by "Every Word of God". Is HE telling me the truth here? Or have you been convinced that we can't trust in His Words?

Who does Paul say to listen to? The Holy Scriptures, Yes?

So who has convinced you Paul doesn't know what he is talking about here?




Absolutely? I was born into a religion just as you were, and Jesus, and Abraham. Don't we all have to choose between the voices of the religions of the land we are born into, and the Words of Almighty God Himself?

Of a truth I presume God's Words are truth, while the "other" religious voices in the land may not be truth. Will God reject me because I believe in Him over the "other" voices in the land? Maybe, but it is my Hope and Faith that HE is the ONE voice that I can Trust, even when the religions around me do not. And I am here to simply have a discussion about what HE says. It isn't my fault that what HE says and what "many" who come in His Name say, are two different things, just as what the serpent said, and what God said were two different things.




I don't understand what you are talking about. The "shepherds" God raised for me are the only ones I listen to.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our (Jew and Gentile) examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I'm not, nor have I ever said to listen to me. I just wish to discuss the Holy Scriptures. Is Moses not a Shepherd sent by God? Is Malachi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, not Shepherds sent by God? Is JESUS not a Shepherd sent to the lost sheep? If we could actually have a conversation about the Holy Scriptures, you would answer this question.

Why were there lost sheep? Did God's Word's lead them astray? Or was it religious voices who became Partial in the Law, that turned men away from the God of the Bible?

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

It is precisely because I am not a "self appointed authority and self sufficient shepherd of myself", that I come to these questions.

Let's look at the Scriptures together. Let's have a discussion about them because we "believe" in the warnings of the Christ.

That's all I was asking. If the Holy Scriptures expose a darkness or untruth in our mind about God, then let's rejoice and be thankful we are growing in the knowledge of our Lord. As opposed to protecting and preserving the darkness and untruths because we might be humiliated in the correction.
I'm not suggesting that we have to choose between believing the Holy Scriptures and believing in what preaches and ministers say about their meaning.
My concern is with the 40,000 different interpretations and the fact that each of them claims to be simply going by what the Holy Scriptures teach, just as you claim to be doing.

Everyone says, "I don't trust man, I just believe what the Holy Scripture says" and the problem comes when all 40,000 arrive at different conclusions of what the scriptures are actually saying.


The Roman Catholic church claims to preach the gospel faithfully and accurately, so do the Eastern Orthodox, so does the Anglican Church, so does the Baptist Church, so does the Lutheren Church, so does Joel Osteen and every other denomination or Sect you care to mention.

They all say exactly what you say, yet they all disagree with each other and they all preach different gospels. So the question that begs to be answered is, how do we know who's right and who's wrong.

The Holy Scriptures can be interpreted in so many different ways, so much so that we can make them say anything we want them to say and this is why the Church is so divided and so hostile towards each other. Millions have been executed for refusing to accept the Church's interpretation of the Bible.

Most Christians change their view several times over during their life. We are all in transition and our view will change many times so it quite naive to presume that you posses the correct view and understanding while billions of others have got it all wrong.

God deliberately had the Bible written in such a way, that it would confound the wise and proud of this world. The Word of of is spiritually discerned, so if the Holy Spirit doesn't give us understanding then we will never will by using human rational and human wisdom.

I've heard preachers say that it took 50 years before they finally understood the true meaning of a certain Bible verse or doctrine.

I don't question your sincerity, it's obvious you're seeking to know the truth. I get the sense that you believe that the matter is cut and dried and settled in your mind. I'd just like to encourage you to leave some room for error and always pray for humility and ask God to reveal the truth of every matter to you and wait upon Him to reveal it before you settle it in your mind.
 
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I'm not suggesting that we have to choose between believing the Holy Scriptures and believing in what preaches and ministers say about their meaning.
My concern is with the 40,000 different interpretations and the fact that each of them claims to be simply going by what the Holy Scriptures teach, just as you claim to be doing.

Everyone says, "I don't trust man, I just believe what the Holy Scripture says" and the problem comes when all 40,000 arrive at different conclusions of what the scriptures are actually saying.


The Roman Catholic church claims to preach the gospel faithfully and accurately, so do the Eastern Orthodox, so does the Anglican Church, so does the Baptist Church, so does the Lutheren Church, so does Joel Osteen and every other denomination or Sect you care to mention.

They all say exactly what you say, yet they all disagree with each other and they all preach different gospels. So the question that begs to be answered is, how do we know who's right and who's wrong.

They do not say what I am saying. They have a religious franchise to promote and sell. I am only saying we should have Faith in God and let HIS Word direct us. Have faith in HIM, not the words of the people who come in HIS Name, as Jesus specifically warns about.. You seem to be willing to throw out the Bible because of the "other voices" that quotes some of His Words. I have found that HE is Faithful to direct our foot steps if we are willing to trust Him and His Word.



The Holy Scriptures can be interpreted in so many different ways, so much so that we can make them say anything we want them to say and this is why the Church is so divided and so hostile towards each other. Millions have been executed for refusing to accept the Church's interpretation of the Bible.

Again, you are allowing the doctrines of a bunch of religions in the land to diminish the power of God's Word in your mind. Jesus said to "Live by Every Word that Proceeds from God". A man either believes in Him or they don't. satan has, from the very beginning, worked to deceive men into rejecting God's Words, and it quotes the Bible to succeed in this deception.

What I am saying is to trust the Christ of the Bible to direct you, stay away from these 40,000 differing sects, and place your faith in Him. You will understand the "cost" Jesus speaks of when you do this. The religious practice of gathering in a sanctuary built of stone and wood is just a modern version of the Levitical Priesthood that Jesus changed.

Most Christians change their view several times over during their life. We are all in transition and our view will change many times so it quite naive to presume that you posses the correct view and understanding while billions of others have got it all wrong.

My view is to read the scriptures and "Hunger and thirst" for righteousness. It is the Christ who said that few enter the narrow path. Not me. I just believe Him.

God deliberately had the Bible written in such a way, that it would confound the wise and proud of this world. The Word of of is spiritually discerned, so if the Holy Spirit doesn't give us understanding then we will never will by using human rational and human wisdom.

And according to the Holy Scriptures, who get's the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Now should I listen to you, or Jimmy Swaggart to find out who God gives His Spirit to? Or should I have Faith in His Word, and believe them? I know what Peter believed.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Now you may have been convinced by "other voices" that there is 40,000 ways to interpret these words, but my 7 year old grandson can read it and understand it perfectly. It isn't the Word's of God which cause confusion, it is the "other voice" in the garden that convinces us we can't trust them, that causes the problem.

I've heard preachers say that it took 50 years before they finally understood the true meaning of a certain Bible verse or doctrine.

And you choose to believe him? Why him over the other 39,999 sects? This is what I mean. Your entire understanding of the scriptures are through the words of "other" voices because somehow you have been convinced that God is not capable of directing you without these "other" voices. I used to believe the same way. But I have come to find this is not true. I believe you would to if you have Faith enough in the Word of God which became Flesh to trust what HE says as Jesus and His Disciples instruct us to do.

I don't question your sincerity, it's obvious you're seeking to know the truth. I get the sense that you believe that the matter is cut and dried and settled in your mind. I'd just like to encourage you to leave some room for error and always pray for humility and ask God to reveal the truth of every matter to you and wait upon Him to reveal it before you settle it in your mind.

It isn't about me, it's about the teaching. You disagree with my understanding, not because you can find any Scriptures that show my error, but because what I understand is different than what you have been taught by one sect out of the 40,000 sects that you have chosen to believe. Or perhaps you take a little doctrine from many sects and come to own religion.

What I am saying is that if a man follows the instructions of the Word's of the Bible, outside the religious influence of the religions of the land we are born into, your understanding would be different.

Like Jesus and His Disciples, you would find yourself in opposition to the teaching of the religions of the land, you would be ridiculed and hated. But you would also be blessed above anything I can define with human words.

Not by following me, or Benny Hinn, or the Pope, but by placing your Faith in the Word of God which became Flesh and trusting Him.

My sincere hope is that you might consider these words and "Come out of her".

Rev. 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Either way, thank you for the discussion.
 
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