The Purpose of the Rapture.

[fm107]

I just wonder why you change the words of Scripture to match your theology.
Why not keep the words that are written instead of mangling Scripture?
Just keep to the spirit of Rev 1:3.

And that is how the entire book of Revelation should be read.... Rev 1:3. Read, Hear, Keep.

How does Rev 4:1 fit with the Pauline version of the rapture?
The only place I see a parallel with the Pauline version is in Rev 20:12-13.

I haven't changed any words of scripture, my friend.

You have not added anything positive into this discussion, nor have you been able to furnish us with what your view of the correct interpretation of the passage is. You have only contributed negative comments, saying this is wrong and that is wrong. When I challenge you to furnish us with your view on it, I.E. positively saying what you deem is the correct interpretation, you state you are "just wondering" - I'm hardly convinced you understand these passages at all.

 

[dwb001]

I haven't changed any words of scripture, my friend.

You have not added anything positive into this discussion, nor have you been able to furnish us with what your view of the correct interpretation of the passage is. You have only contributed negative comments, saying this is wrong and that is wrong. When I challenge you to furnish us with your view on it, I.E. positively saying what you deem is the correct interpretation, you state you are "just wondering" - I'm hardly convinced you understand these passages at all.

By saying church instead of what is actually written... sounds like a change in text to me.

Sorry for saying things are wrong... should I say incorrect?
Why did you challenge me for asking questions?

My understanding of all of Revelation takes a while to explain but is encapsulated by Rev 1:3.
Do you have some specific questions for me? And I do mean specific.
Pick a specific verse or limited topic and we can discuss my views.

 

[fm107]

By saying church instead of what is actually written... sounds like a change in text to me.

Sorry for saying things are wrong... should I say incorrect?
Why did you challenge me for asking questions?

My understanding of all of Revelation takes a while to explain but is encapsulated by Rev 1:3.
Do you have some specific questions for me? And I do mean specific.
Pick a specific verse or limited topic and we can discuss my views.

Interpreting the text isn't the same as changing the text.

Revelation 19:7 is talking about the Lamb's wife - but it is an obvious interpretation to anyone who knows their bible that the Lamb's wife is the Church and the Lamb is the Lord. That isn't changing scripture, that is interpreting scripture in the light of scripture.

Revelation 4:1 - please explain your view.

 

[dwb001]

Interpreting the text isn't the same as changing the text.

Revelation 19:7 is talking about the Lamb's wife - but it is an obvious interpretation to anyone who knows their bible that the Lamb's wife is the Church and the Lamb is the Lord. That isn't changing scripture, that is interpreting scripture in the light of scripture.

Revelation 4:1 - please explain your view.

In the case of Revelation I do think that interpretation is the greatest enemy of understanding the text.

Oh... is the Bride of the Lamb the Church, church, Jews, believing Jews, hereditary Jews or the innocents?
You see that there are many different interpretations but the text says something different than all the interpretations.

I believe that Revelation 4:1 is the first verse in the fourth chapter in the book of Revelation.
I did say to be specific and your first question is very generalized.

 

[Clare73]

But the verse in question is not addressed to any Jews. It is to a church outside of Judea.

You think a church is filled with Jews and a synagogue is filled with Christians?

Your avatar is to die for!

 

[dwb001]

Your avatar is to die for!

Thanks... it is my face.

Do you get the "Balaams Donkey" reference?
I like to say... No one likes a smart ass, but God sometimes can use a smart ass.

 

[Clare73]

Thanks... it is my face.

Do you get the "Balaams Donkey" reference?
I like to say... No one likes a smart ass, but God sometimes can use a smart ass.

Oh, yeah, I got it all (I think).

That's why I like it so much.

 

[JulieB67]

We really need to heed the warnings brought on by first Christ about this subject and then Paul who mirrors Christ's own warnings about this subject. Both tells us do not be deceived by any means. Paul very clearly addresses the confusion some had over the timing of our gathering back to him. He states it won't happen until certain events unfold. People who believe in a pretrib rapture will explain this away as Christ coming back two more times and that's just not biblical.

There is no purpose for a pretrib rapture. Christians have always went through tribulation. And that will not change. What makes anyone think they're more special than someone that gave their life back in the day to further the church? And some are still giving their lives today and so on. They're not. And God's wrath is not the same as enduring tribulation.

 

[Marilyn C]

He must return to earth to judge the nations first.

Actually the Body of Christ will be taken to heaven where with Christ they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Then at the end of the trib, the Lord will come to the earth and judge the nations. He will then set up his rulership through Israel over the nations, (Jer. 30: 9, Isa. 66: 21) and return to His seat of power and authority to rule over all as His Father appointed. (Eph. 1: 21)

 

[Marilyn C]

What did he overcome?

If he got raptured out of all the things that are coming, then he didn't have to overcome anything.

Good question. We, the believers need to overcome the world system, the devil, (temptations) and self, (lusts of the flesh, etc.(1 John 2: 16)

 

[Marilyn C]

Dispensationally, the 7 churches map out the entire church age from the times of the apostles to the time of the rapture, after which will come the period of tribulation. Just now we live in the Laodicean church age, and we see there described in Revelation 3:14-22 the conditions prevalent in Christianity. The overcomer is the genuine christian who overcomes these bad conditions - the lukewarmness and indifference to the claims of Christ.

The rapture doesn't occur until Revelation 4:1, after which, we see the 24 elders crowned in Heaven (representing the entire Church). After which, we get no more mention of the Church until Revelation 19, where we see the Church coming down out of Heaven. Between these chapters the tribulation is happening on earth.

I agree with much of what you wrote till I came to `we see the church coming out of heaven...` I don`t see that in God`s word. Care to show where?

 

[dwb001]

Good question. We, the believers need to overcome the world system, the devil, (temptations) and self, (lusts of the flesh, etc.(1 John 2: 16)

I agree with you that we must overcome all these things... but it just does not work with the phrasing of the type of overcoming that is mentioned in the 7 letters.

If you put your ideas into the 7 letters it sounds like a hard left turn after the content of the letter.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is an easy one - Revelation 19:7, the Lamb's wife is the Church. You see there are many different names given in scripture for/referring to the Church, e.g. wife, bride, the body of Christ, assembly, saints, etc.

Hope this helps.

If you think my views are wrong and you have a better understanding of these passages, please do share it brother.

Where do you see `the Lamb`s wife is the church?`

 

[Marilyn C]

I agree with you that we must overcome all these things... but it just does not work with the phrasing of the type of overcoming that is mentioned in the 7 letters.

If you put your ideas into the 7 letters it sounds like a hard left turn after the content of the letter.

Truth is what we need to grow, and truth is what was addressed by the Lord in the 7 churches. And the ONLY way to overcome the world system, the devil and self is by GOD`S TRUTH.

Glad you highlighted that.

 

[dwb001]

Truth is what we need to grow, and truth is what was addressed by the Lord in the 7 churches. And the ONLY way to overcome the world system, the devil and self is by GOD`S TRUTH.

Glad you highlighted that.

So now that I have changed your mind... what must be overcome?

 

[Marilyn C]

Interpreting the text isn't the same as changing the text.

Revelation 19:7 is talking about the Lamb's wife - but it is an obvious interpretation to anyone who knows their bible that the Lamb's wife is the Church and the Lamb is the Lord. That isn't changing scripture, that is interpreting scripture in the light of scripture.

Revelation 4:1 - please explain your view.

No it is not obvious that the church is the Lamb`s wife. The word Lamb, (as in capital L) relates to Israel`s sacrifices.

 

[Marilyn C]

So now that I have changed your mind... what must be overcome?

Not that you have changed my mind just the need for more detail. What needs to be overcome is the world system of beliefs, the devil`s lies, and our sinful desires. All these are overcome by God`s truth. (2 Cor. 10: 3 - 6, Eph. 4: 13 - 16)

 

[dwb001]

Not that you have changed my mind just the need for more detail. What needs to be overcome is the world system of beliefs, the devil`s lies, and our sinful desires. All these are overcome by God`s truth. (2 Cor. 10: 3 - 6, Eph. 4: 13 - 16)

But you just agreed with me that those (while important to overcome) do not fit in with the 7 letters.
So as those answers are (by your own agreement) not satisfactory... I ask what must be overcome?

 

[Marilyn C]

We really need to heed the warnings brought on by first Christ about this subject and then Paul who mirrors Christ's own warnings about this subject. Both tells us do not be deceived by any means. Paul very clearly addresses the confusion some had over the timing of our gathering back to him. He states it won't happen until certain events unfold. People who believe in a pretrib rapture will explain this away as Christ coming back two more times and that's just not biblical.

There is no purpose for a pretrib rapture. Christians have always went through tribulation. And that will not change. What makes anyone think they're more special than someone that gave their life back in the day to further the church? And some are still giving their lives today and so on. They're not. And God's wrath is not the same as enduring tribulation.

Yes, there has been and still are martyrs however it is not the mark of the `special` Christian. We are all in Christ and if some have to die then God gives them grace to do that, if some go through terrible difficulties, illness, disease, loss of family etc then God gives them the grace to go through that. We all need to `die to self` so that the Christ life can come forth, and that is the focus.

The Body of Christ does need to go to the Lord`s own throne in the highest, (Rev. 3: 21) for there they will, with the Lord judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

[Marilyn C]

But you just agreed with me that those (while important to overcome) do not fit in with the 7 letters.
So as those answers are (by your own agreement) not satisfactory... I ask what must be overcome?

I said it does agree with the 7 letters. What do you see differently?