The Prosperity Doctrine

[rturner76]

Success is good and all things are possible through God but I am asking where do you place your trust? In the riches or in God? MUST you be rich? Is it a requirement? Must God heed a prayer to make you a wealthy person? Monetary wealth comes and goes but God's love remains. I;mm not saying we must all be poor, I'm saying be careful where your heart's desire lies, in the worlds rewards? Is it a spiritual reward that is not of this world? THat's all I'm asking. People seem to thing riches are a requirement I think they are not. Love God, Love your neighbor and do it with all your heart soul and mind. If you gain extra because of your good work ethic and Christian values of fairness and communication, morals and commitment, good judgement. All the things a good christian exibits of course you will be successful in work and business.

 

[Simon Peter]

well that's kind of amazing. Somehow our church, which is in the top 5% of churches in the US doesn't fit those statistics.
...
no, we're probably not among the churches listed in those statistics you provided, because we're busy making our own statistics and doing the Lord's work.

That's great, so please show us by publishing your church budget.

Show us how much your church spends on staff salaries, church building, missions etc.

Thanks,
Simon

 

[TamaraLynne]

Just subscribing...and listening...Good thread

 

[TamaraLynne]

This thread I posted years ago where God showed me understanding ...that opened the bible and my walk...these scriptures used against prosperity mean a very different thing to me...I even had a pastor yell at me because he had a different view. I can not shake what God showed me...I just can't...I don't know everything about prosperity but I know I trust in God. I'm still listening to everyone here and please if there is more to show me on the scriptures from the thread link I'm going to post...please share
http://www.christianforums.com/t3760662/

 

[dkbwarrior]

It doesn't leave out a boatload of data. These are church budgets. This tells us what institutional church money is being spent on, and what's important to the church.

How individuals Christians budget their finanances are another issue.
I commend you for not institutionalizing all your giving, and for giving to the poor.

So why was the person in your congregation 3 months behind on their utility bill? Was he tithing? Doesn't WoF believe that if you give to God that He will bless you abundantly in this life? Being 3 months behind on something as basic and necessary as a utility bill doesn't seem like the abundant provision I hear preached from WoF pulpits.


peace,
Simon

WOF is not magic. It is only the critics who don't understand it that think it is.

WOF is about sowing and reaping, and applying the promises and wisdom of God to your life and giving and receiving.

People dont confess they are rich and then walk out the door millionaires. Nobody in WOF preaches this, nor teaches this. We beliedve that all the promises of God are yes and amen, but we still live in a fallen world. That means that we have to stand in faith, believe God, sow our seed, and do the good to those around us, and love both God and man. Over time, we will walk further and further into the plan and purpose of God in our lives.

Healing doesn't mean much to a man that is physically healthy. Just as prosperity doesn't mean much to the rich. It is the poor that see their need to rely on and believe God for prosperity, and the sick that see their need to believe God and rely on Him for their needs to be met. That is why God has chosen the poor of this world rich in faith.

Jesus said it this way:

31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
-Luke 5:31

When their is news on how to overcome anything, it is those that have problems in that area that come for the promise of God. Those that don't, must feel that they don't need Gods help. Like the rich man, or the man that has a secure job making 100,000 grand a year. They don't need to believe in prosperity do they?

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

Healing doesn't mean much to a man that is physically healthy. Just as prosperity doesn't mean much to the rich. It is the poor that see their need to rely on and believe God for prosperity...

The poor do need to rely on God, but for His provision in His time and way, and that may mean some hunger, it may mean abundant provision, or receiving provision one day at a time.

This thread I posted years ago where God showed me understanding ...http://www.christianforums.com/t3760662/

I liked this post by Eoe from that thread:


Poverty is a virtue and it exists in different ways. Monks express poverty though.. well.. poverty. Someone else might have poverty of mind, they may own much but consider it all to be nothing.

It is indeed tied to humility as well. Remember who would be the greatest of all must become the servant of all.

I often think that our idea of self esteem etc is actually upside down - as we try to lift ourselves up we actually dig ourselves farther into a hole. As we humble ourselves and lift up others, we are elevated.



peace,
Simon

 

[dkbwarrior]

The poor do need to rely on God, but for His provision in His time and way, and that may mean some hunger, it may mean abundant provision, or receiving provision one day at a time.

I liked this post by Eoe from that thread:

Poverty is a virtue and it exists in different ways. Monks express poverty though.. well.. poverty. Someone else might have poverty of mind, they may own much but consider it all to be nothing.

It is indeed tied to humility as well. Remember who would be the greatest of all must become the servant of all.

I often think that our idea of self esteem etc is actually upside down - as we try to lift ourselves up we actually dig ourselves farther into a hole. As we humble ourselves and lift up others, we are elevated.

According to God, poverty is a curse:

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
-Deuteronomy 28:15-18

Not a virtue.

Peace...

 

[TamaraLynne]

I have never had a home of my own....I would like a home and even a horse some day...I actually had a family member disown me over my view that someday I believed God would bless me with a beautiful home. I posted several pictures of homes that I thought had beautiful features in them. She said that I was sinning by wanting a home. The home I posted on Facebook had a kitchen that had small pillars that separated the kitchen from the sunk in living room...the feature in the home was the pillars that I thought were pretty...but in her mind to want pretty things is a sin..sigh. My view is that if it is in Gods plan for me to be blessed financially then it will happen..I will leave that door open...but if it is not the plan for me...I will still love God and others and my relationship with God is still not changed...God knows all the yearnings of my heart and I am not to worry about what to eat or what to wear...I do know that when we are poor we really focus on money to pay bills and feed our kids...and put gas in the car. Lack of money causes us to worry and focus on money.Rich people also worry because they are so afraid of losing all that they have..there is a happy medium out there. A balance .

The part in the bible about the rich man...Jesus is talking about how hard it is for someone who thinks they are perfect (sin free) and more righteous then others...how hard it is for them to get into heaven . They are puffed up in how they see themselves and they look down upon others as being sinners. How can they walk in love if they look down and judge others all the while thinking they themselves are perfect...When Jesus said for the rich man to give all that he had to the poor...Jesus is not talking about money. When Jesus said to pick up our cross...it is about us recognizing we are sinners...

To prosper...to be blessed..by God ...is a good thing

 

[Simon Peter]

According to God, poverty is a curse:

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
-Deuteronomy 28:15-18

Not a virtue.

Peace...

Strictly speaking, I agree that poverty is not a virtue; but it can be virtueous. It can encourage virtues, such as humility.


According to those verses, God curses the following:

baskets and bowls are cursed
the city and the fields are cursed
the fruit of their wombs, crops and herds are cursed,
etc...

why?

Deuteronomy 28:20 ESV
20 "The LORD will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.

So this verse has almost nothing to do with poverty. God justs uses many types of pestilence and disease to send destructive judgment.

But at least you acknowledge that God sends curses and judgment.

However, I agree that in some circumstances and situations poverty can be a curse.
But in far more circumstances wealth is a curse.

There are far more scriptures that warn us about the dangers of wealth, than the dangers of poverty.

peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

I have never had a home of my own....I would like a home and even a horse some day...I actually had a family member disown me over my view that someday I believed God would bless me with a beautiful home. I posted several pictures of homes that I thought had beautiful features in them. She said that I was sinning by wanting a home. The home I posted on Facebook had a kitchen that had small pillars that separated the kitchen from the sunk in living room...the feature in the home was the pillars that I thought were pretty...but in her mind to want pretty things is a sin..sigh. My view is that if it is in Gods plan for me to be blessed financially then it will happen..I will leave that door open...but if it is not the plan for me...I will still love God and others and my relationship with God is still not changed...God knows all the yearnings of my heart and I am not to worry about what to eat or what to wear...I do know that when we are poor we really focus on money to pay bills and feed our kids...and put gas in the car. Lack of money causes us to worry and focus on money.Rich people also worry because they are so afraid of losing all that they have..there is a happy medium out there. A balance .

The part in the bible about the rich man...Jesus is talking about how hard it is for someone who thinks they are perfect (sin free) and more righteous then others...how hard it is for them to get into heaven . They are puffed up in how they see themselves and they look down upon others as being sinners. How can they walk in love if they look down and judge others all the while thinking they themselves are perfect...When Jesus said for the rich man to give all that he had to the poor...Jesus is not talking about money. When Jesus said to pick up our cross...it is about us recognizing we are sinners...

To prosper...to be blessed..by God ...is a good thing

I am not against Christians receiving wealth form God.

I pray God does bless you with a house and horse. And may you enjoy them as blessings from God.

God has different paths for us all. It often includes times of poverty and wealth at different times in our lives. We must learn to be thankful whatever our circumstances.

peace,
Simon

 

[TamaraLynne]

I am not against Christians receiving wealth form God.

I pray God does bless you with a house and horse. And may you enjoy them as blessings from God.

God has different paths for us all. It often includes times of poverty and wealth at different times in our lives. We must learn to be thankful whatever our circumstances.

peace,
Simon

(((hug))) Thank you.

Its not so much thankful...it is more of a rejoicing happiness even in our richness or poverty because love for others seems to burst forth from our hearts because we have picked up our cross and we see others the way God does...we are humbled. I still get a kick out of thinking about the expressions on the apostles faces "who then can be saved" I can see their eyes getting big in astonishment...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Once your commitment is to Christ and He is Master, then you should have a lot.

I grew up hearing about the poverty in India, and a kind of jealousy, "You should see the poverty, for a day." As if I would learn something from it. It seemed to have much was evil. In India there is a big divide between the rich and the poor.

But in the end, a Catholic Canon lawyer priest taught me that it is good, morally, to have a lot. It creates jobs...

In the beginning with Jesus, if you have a lot, and it owns you, then you may not initially repent and commit to Jesus. But when money is your servant, having more is good.

Israel in the wilderness when they met Balaam, were eating enough, and were looking forward to milk and honey and grapes the size of apples, plenty of meat and fresh water, already completed houses...

I believe what God wants is a return to Adam's glory. Adam had plenty. Moses law and the fire with him, was for fellowship with God again.

Poverty means ill health and unsafety, insecurity.

Jesus promised that those who love God, can ask and have all they need and want.

In the early church, the elders, lived fairly long lives, or died in persecution. Peter and Paul, Clement, and Polycarp.

If we have a lot, and it serves God, the poor are better fed, spirit, soul and body. We build churches, fund missions and keep well.

The danger is, as in the Gospel, simply sitting back and living off savings.

For me, being poor, has led to even more poorness. More bad experiences and I missed several good ones. I could never attend TACF, and even had no car. One guy giving me lifts left me injured and offended as well.

It is important to enter the kingdom and have wealth.

 

[rturner76]

Wealth? or enough?

EDIT: The Catholic church has unknown wealth yet in order to serve the church one must take a vow of poverty. Makes you think.......

 

[rturner76]

The first will be last and the last will be first. I would never want to grow up or be in abject poverty. I want to be wealthy of course, and therein lies the danger for me. What will become of me if and when I become rich? Will I be also rich is spirit? God only knows.

 

[dollarsbill]

Being poor doesn't make anyone better off spiritually. The poor can lust and covet as much as the wealthy.

 

[rturner76]

Being poor doesn't make anyone better off spiritually. The poor can lust and covet as much as the wealthy.

Very true if they are poor in spirit. Maybe the Catholics got it wrong?

 

[now faith]

Verse 26 But Jesus beheld them and said unto them with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[now faith]

The prosperity doctrine is a weird conglomeration of truth and lies.

So how do you feel about the poverty doctrine?

 

[importunity]

Actually, poverty is part of the curse of Deut 28 for being disobedient to God.

The question was how do you feel about it. We all know it was part of the curse.

 

[Faulty]

There is no doctrine of prosperity. Neither is there a doctrine of poverty. There is a doctrine of provision.