The Prosperity Doctrine

[Simon Peter]

From my experience the poor would rather share in a small proportion of a large amount than a large amount of hardly anything. After all there are some good at maths among the poor

Is there anyone better at maths than God?

He would rather we bless the poor than the rich. Do you know that one of the main reasons that God destroyed Sodom was because they did not help the poor and needy?

peace,
Simon

 

[Tallen]

He would rather we bless the poor than the rich.

Amen.

He that oppresseth the poor to increase his [riches, and] he that giveth to the rich, [shall] surely [come] to want. (Proverbs 22:16, KJV)

 

[Always in His Presence]

Do you mean prosperous congregants supporting struggling pastors?

The approximate average church budget:

Staff: 40-50%
Buidling: 20%
Missions: 15% (most goes to staff again)
Church programs: 10%

What percentage of a church budget do you think goes to help the poor?


peace,
Simon

Mind providing where you got that info from

A link would help.

 

[Simon Peter]

Mind providing where you got that info from

A link would help.

I mostly based it on Christianity Today:

Christianity Today have more detailed info. from a survey of about 1000 churches here:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/special/ycresources/pdf/exec-report_churchbudgetpriorities.pdf

But in the above PDF info. don't just accept the 38% on staff salaries, go further down to only include churches that actually reported staff salaries and it jumps to 41%.

But even the above CT figure is a lot lower than my brief Google sortie that suggests 45-50 is more typical.

The Christian Post reported 40-50% for staff salaries, and the Southern Babtists surveyed almost 6000 churches and came up with 48% here:

http://server.kybaptist.org/public/compstdy.nsf/cs2006per.pdf

What's interesting about the above SB data, is that it doesn't seem to matter if the church budget is $25,000 or $1,000,000 the staff salaries still average about 48% of the budget!


Something I read that's worth repeating:

The church budget is an important Theological document.


peace,
simon

 

[TasManOfGod]

Is there anyone better at maths than God?

He would rather we bless the poor than the rich. Do you know that one of the main reasons that God destroyed Sodom was because they did not help the poor and needy?

peace,
Simon

No sodom was destroyed because the rich and the poor did not seek after God

 

[rturner76]

rturner 76
Perhaps if your church did what the Bible says about prosperity we wouldn't be having this discussion

My church takes an offering like any other. If you are saying your church made you rich, I don't think it's the church that is giving you your Earthly reward. See, I go to church to be spiritually fed, I look to my business for financial gain. If I go to my spiritual director for Earthly things my spirit is of this Earth is it not?

THere may be a price to pay for your "prosperity"

 

[lismore]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing Simon!

 

[Simon Peter]

No sodom was destroyed because the rich and the poor did not seek after God

49 "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;
they did not help the poor and needy.
50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 (NIV)


peace,
Simon

 

[rockytopva]

49 "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;
they did not help the poor and needy.
50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 (NIV)


peace,
Simon

.



Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. - Ezekiel 16:49 (KJV)

Lets outline the scripture above...

1. Arrogance
2. Gluttony
3. Laziness
4. Greedy


Sure can befall church people!

 

[Simon Peter]

IWhat's interesting about the above SB data, is that it doesn't seem to matter if the church budget is $25,000 or $1,000,000 the staff salaries still average about 48% of the budget!


Something I read that's worth repeating:

The church budget is an important Theological document.

I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that there must be a reason why the staff salary budget for almost all churches is just below 50%

I guess it's one of those psychological lines.

Go over 50% and the church appears to mainly exist to support it's staff!


peace,
Simon

 

[dkbwarrior]

Do you really think things work that way? From my experience it is the prosporous supporting the struggling

Do you mean prosperous congregants supporting struggling pastors?

The approximate average church budget:

Staff: 40-50%
Buidling: 20%
Missions: 15% (most goes to staff again)
Church programs: 10%

What percentage of a church budget do you think goes to help the poor?

This kinda figuring leaves out a boatload of data. For instance, just this week I gave some money to a person in our congregation that was struggling to pay his utility bill, it was 3 months behind, and was going to be shut off that day. The amount that I gave him equalled nearly two months of my normal tithe to my church. This doesn't go through the church, nor is it registered by anyone but God. This is a rather common behavior among the WOF circles that I have been involved in. Some time back I myself was given a check for $500.00 from a church member, which I desperately needed at the time.

Not to mention, but our church partners with other area churches to run a food, clothing and shelter program. People invest large amounts of time and 'stuff' (food, clothing, books, electronics, etc,) into making this program succesful. None of this is recorded in dollars. Only the cash would be reported as such, but that is only a small portion of the value that is given into this effort.

Not to mention, I have been a part of churches that have used church funds to help individual needs. This has never in my experience worked out well over the long haul. People hear of what is going on, and people start to come through trying to 'work' the church. As a rule, it is much better to allow individuals to help other individuals when it comes to cash, rather than try to create a system for the church to do it. Unless, of course, the church is giving to or partnering with other para-church organizations that do this already. Most of the WOF churches that I have been apart of do this also.

When I tithe to the church, I am not giving to the pastor, I am giving to the church. How well off the pastor is doesn't figure into my giving at all. Remeber, that Jesus commended the widow for her two mites, even though it was going into the coffers of the wealthy and currupt priests. The money that I give to my local church helps pay for building improvements, staff, youth progams and outreach, missions etc. I don't expect this money to be used mostly for the poor. I give extra myself for that.

Peace...

 

[rockytopva]

Beth Stephens - Tithing (Break the Curse) - YouTube

 

[now faith]

Mark 10:25 (Mark 10)

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luke 18:25 (Luke 18)

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Read the rest of the text, our Lord said but with God all things are possible. One may quote verse without finishing context. It's not foolish to compare apples to oranges it's only foolish when we don't understand the difference.

 

[now faith]

You forgot Bulding 75% maintenance workers
Church programs 75% staff

Pastor's Cadillac (off the books as a loss)

What should the pastor drive? How many golden icons and nic nacs should a church have? Who decides what you drive? If you had a Cadillac would you mind if the pastor had one? I know let's make a rule all pastors are only to drive cars no better than anyone in their church, after all it's your money he's used.

 

[now faith]

Is there anyone better at maths than God?

He would rather we bless the poor than the rich. Do you know that one of the main reasons that God destroyed Sodom was because they did not help the poor and needy?

peace,
Simon

Have you ever studied the parable of the three men and the talents? If you think God destroyed Sodom for not helping the poor I wonder what he would have done if they were sexually immoral?

 

[now faith]

The Prosperity doctrine teaches that those who have faith in God will become wealthy, have the best of material things and life will be sweet and comfortable.

Note that Baal was and still is the pagan god of fertility and prosperity. This is was the sin of Israel. They had a faith in God, but they also worshipped Baal to ensure that they were able to have good harvests and healthy families. They put material wealth before daily trust in the providence and care of God, as they did in the desert before they reached the Promised Land.

So, it can be argued that the present day Prosperity Doctrine is merely a modern form of Baal worship, and the same judgment that happened to the Baal worshippers of Israel, may very well happen to those who subscribe to the Prosperity doctrine.

I am just now finding this post, and you saying that prosperity is Baal worship. Prosperity is our promise from God and it is more than wealth. It's peace love grace family and provision. Would you rather have a poverty doctrine? God promised the children of Israel than what ever they placed their foot upon they would have. Guess the should have danced around the good land and set their feet upon barren ground. Their are nut cases in every faith from Cathloic to Babtist their are women chasing stealing living liers. Evil is truly Nondenomational.

 

[Simon Peter]

This kinda figuring leaves out a boatload of data. For instance, just this week I gave some money to a person in our congregation that was struggling to pay his utility bill, it was 3 months behind...

It doesn't leave out a boatload of data. These are church budgets. This tells us what institutional church money is being spent on, and what's important to the church.

How individuals Christians budget their finanances are another issue.
I commend you for not institutionalizing all your giving, and for giving to the poor.

So why was the person in your congregation 3 months behind on their utility bill? Was he tithing? Doesn't WoF believe that if you give to God that He will bless you abundantly in this life? Being 3 months behind on something as basic and necessary as a utility bill doesn't seem like the abundant provision I hear preached from WoF pulpits.


peace,
Simon

 

[pdudgeon]

I mostly based it on Christianity Today:

Christianity Today have more detailed info. from a survey of about 1000 churches here:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/special/ycresources/pdf/exec-report_churchbudgetpriorities.pdf

But in the above PDF info. don't just accept the 38% on staff salaries, go further down to only include churches that actually reported staff salaries and it jumps to 41%.

But even the above CT figure is a lot lower than my brief Google sortie that suggests 45-50 is more typical.

The Christian Post reported 40-50% for staff salaries, and the Southern Babtists surveyed almost 6000 churches and came up with 48% here:

http://server.kybaptist.org/public/compstdy.nsf/cs2006per.pdf

What's interesting about the above SB data, is that it doesn't seem to matter if the church budget is $25,000 or $1,000,000 the staff salaries still average about 48% of the budget!


Something I read that's worth repeating:

The church budget is an important Theological document.


peace,
simon

well that's kind of amazing. Somehow our church, which is in the top 5% of churches in the US doesn't fit those statistics.
Everyone who is employed at our church must have an outside source of income, so that the church is not their sole means of support. In practice, the church provides enough for a roof over their head and transportation.

at the present time it takes an additional 500 volunteers from our congregation to put on 6 Sunday services, and 2 weekly ones. that's volunteers- they aren't paid.
Since the first of the year our church has grown by over 250 attendees, and over 100 of those have become members--and it's only March.

In the last three weeks we've added another service to our weekly schedule, making a total of 8 worship services each week. if that's not enough we've also started going out in our local community to serve others every week.

Last week over 250 people from our church went out. we cleaned highways, gave out quarters in a laundrymat, helped to carry groceries to cars, visited nursing homes, did house repairs, etc. All volunteers, all done for free. And each week until Easter, a DIFFERENT group of 250 or more people will be going out. So it's not just the same people going out week after week.

no, we're probably not among the churches listed in those statistics you provided, because we're busy making our own statistics and doing the Lord's work.
By any standard our church is prosperous, but we are certainly not sitting around just enjoying the prosperity. We are going out, invading the community, and making a difference for Christ.

 

[rturner76]

What should the pastor drive? How many golden icons and nic nacs should a church have? Who decides what you drive? If you had a Cadillac would you mind if the pastor had one? I know let's make a rule all pastors are only to drive cars no better than anyone in their church, after all it's your money he's used.

Yeah, they should only drive a Prius

 

[rturner76]

Read the rest of the text, our Lord said but with God all things are possible. One may quote verse without finishing context. It's not foolish to compare apples to oranges it's only foolish when we don't understand the difference.

You mean this part? I should have included this. It further explains why riches will not get you into heaven:

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.