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The Prosperity Doctrine

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Simon Peter

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There was never really a solid answer given. Everything was opinion and not study? So, I guess this debate is not for people actually wanting to discuss an issue but rather it seems to argue their point to be right. That would make this discussion pointless. So enjoy... I'm out.

I actually found that post difficult to follow, with no real conclusion. I read it through several times. Can you re-write it and clarify your point?

What I see is Paul was comparing the wealth of Heavenly Jesus with the circumstances of Earthly Jesus. Compared to the riches Jesus had in Heaven, He was indigent on Earth.

I used to hate the prosperity message, it's not the message, it's the messenger. There are a lot of people trying to take this message and pervert it.

Do you mean there's a lot of fanatics and extremism being preached, perverting the proserity message as you understand it?


peace,
Simon
 
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franky67

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The Prosperity doctrine teaches that those who have faith in God will become wealthy, have the best of material things and life will be sweet and comfortable.

Note that Baal was and still is the pagan god of fertility and prosperity. This is was the sin of Israel. They had a faith in God, but they also worshipped Baal to ensure that they were able to have good harvests and healthy families. They put material wealth before daily trust in the providence and care of God, as they did in the desert before they reached the Promised Land.

So, it can be argued that the present day Prosperity Doctrine is merely a modern form of Baal worship, and the same judgment that happened to the Baal worshippers of Israel, may very well happen to those who subscribe to the Prosperity doctrine.

This is what God says, anybody want to re-write it ?

Deuteronomy
17 and lest thou say in thy heart, My power and the might of my hand hath gotten me this wealth. 18 But thou shalt remember Jehovah thy God, for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth; that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as at this day.
 
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importunity

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Simon Peter said:
I actually found that post difficult to follow, with no real conclusion. I read it through several times. Can you re-write it and clarify your point?

What I see is Paul was comparing the wealth of Heavenly Jesus with the circumstances of Earthly Jesus. Compared to the riches Jesus had in Heaven, He was indigent on Earth.



Do you mean there's a lot of fanatics and extremism being preached, perverting the proserity message as you understand it?

peace,
Simon

Jesus could not have been indigent (beggar). It is not supported by scripture.

I used the old testament scripture where David has never seen the righteous forsaken or begging bread, because I believe when Jesus was on the cross was the only time that could have applied to Him. As a matter of fact they both applied then, He became indigent as of a beggars status and He was forsaken.

Now you believe Paul was comparing a Heavenly wealthy Jesus verses an Earthly wealthy Jesus. Is there more wealth in Heaven? I don't think anyone would argue.

As far as the context of 2 Cor 8:9, he is talking about a natural offering and He gave a natural example. He proves this by the next chapter where he gives another example of giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater and MULTIPLYING the seed that is sown. It's proven by context, word study and parallel passages.

An indigent Jesus could not support a ministry of the size we discussed earlier. There's absolutely no way He could have been indigent, not only did He support a ministry with an accountant or book keeper as you have stated. He also had a home where a couple of guys spent the night.

Money was never the issue with Jesus, it was trust. Being able to trust the Father for anything at anytime. Even the rich young ruler, he became rich by his own means so he didn't trust God. He trusted what he got by his own means. It's never been about you having riches, riches having you is the problem.

Now when it comes to what i was talking about with the prosperity message, I found there are people that do it for self gain and people that do it for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God. It's all about the heart condition. It's not the message that's the problem (for the most part), it's the messenger (usually). If there is a problem.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Now when it comes to what i was talking about with the prosperity message, I found there are people that do it for self gain and people that do it for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God. It's all about the heart condition. It's not the message that's the problem (for the most part), it's the messenger (usually). If there is a problem.

I agree with this. There are many who have latched onto the "prosperity message" not so much because they love God or believe, but because they want money. This is true both for those in the pulpit, and those in the pew.

This, however, does not invalidate the promise of God, just because some misuse it. It does however, muddy the water, because then you are talking about two different issues, individual integrity on the one hand, and the promise of God on the other.

Of course, this is true in any area of blessing from God, not just money. People may come to God just for healing, or to get out of trouble, or even to cast out demons, as in the story of the seven sons of Sceva, or for the Holy Spirit as the story of Simon the Sorcerer so aptly describes for us in the book of Acts.

I cannot vouch for any individuals integrity. Nor will I judge someones integrety as lacking. That is between them and God. I can however, vouch for the promise of God. And the Bible is replete with promises of provision, and wealth, and riches. It certainly is not the gospel, but it is certainly a part of the gospel.

Peace...
 
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Simon Peter

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Jesus could not have been indigent (beggar). It is not supported by scripture.

I used the old testament scripture where David has never seen the righteous forsaken or begging bread, because I believe when Jesus was on the cross was the only time that could have applied to Him. As a matter of fact they both applied then, He became indigent as of a beggars status and He was forsaken.

Now you believe Paul was comparing a Heavenly wealthy Jesus verses an Earthly wealthy Jesus. Is there more wealth in Heaven? I don't think anyone would argue.

As far as the context of 2 Cor 8:9, he is talking about a natural offering and He gave a natural example. He proves this by the next chapter where he gives another example of giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater and MULTIPLYING the seed that is sown. It's proven by context, word study and parallel passages.

An indigent Jesus could not support a ministry of the size we discussed earlier. There's absolutely no way He could have been indigent, not only did He support a ministry with an accountant or book keeper as you have stated. He also had a home where a couple of guys spent the night.



The Poverty of the Disciples

9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!
11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.
12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
1 Corinthians 4:9-12 NIV

sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:10 NIV


The ‘rich’ of 2Cor 6:10 is the ‘rich’ that Paul talks about again in 2Cor 8:9
Notice how he compares worldly poverty with Heavenly riches.


The Poverty of Joseph and Mary

Scripture clearly tells us that Joseph and Mary were poor, they couldn’t even afford a lamb for an offering:

22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"),
24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."
Luke 2:22-24 NIV


7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. "'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl.
8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'"
Leviticus 12:7-8 NIV


The Poverty of Jesus

19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
20 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Matthew 8:19-20 NIV

You seem to be saying:
Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has a house in the country.

When Jesus needed a donkey, He had to borrow one
When Jesus was buried He had to borrow a tomb

I agree that Jesus was never a beggar (God forbid), but He was poor* particularly in comparison to His wealth in Heaven.

*poor: of the underclass, but not a slave, about 25% of people within the Roman Empire were slaves

Money was never the issue with Jesus, it was trust. Being able to trust the Father for anything at anytime. Even the rich young ruler, he became rich by his own means so he didn't trust God. He trusted what he got by his own means. It's never been about you having riches, riches having you is the problem.

I agree with this.

Now when it comes to what i was talking about with the prosperity message, I found there are people that do it for self gain and people that do it for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God. It's all about the heart condition. It's not the message that's the problem (for the most part), it's the messenger (usually). If there is a problem.

Do you ever speak out against people within WoF who are fleecing the flock?


peace,
Simon
 
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dollarsbill

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I have no doubt that many ministers are fleecing the flock. But that doesn't void the Biblical teachings of prosperity for God's people.

Ecclesiastes 5:19 (NASB)
19 Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God.
 
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Simon Peter

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This is what God says, anybody want to re-write it ?

Deuteronomy
17 and lest thou say in thy heart, My power and the might of my hand hath gotten me this wealth. 18 But thou shalt remember Jehovah thy God, for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth; that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as at this day.


18 You shall remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day.
Deuteronomy 8:18 ESV

The verse makes it clear why God gave the Israelites the power to get wealth: It was so He could confirm His covenant. What was that covenant?

To multiply as a people, and to possess the land of Canaan:

9 I will turn to you and make you fruitful and multiply you and will confirm my covenant with you.
Leviticus 26:9 ESV

7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
Genesis 17:7-8 NIV

So I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread or us? Except that God is able to give us the power to gain wealth, for specific purposes. But we have no promise of wealth as the world sees wealth.


peace,
Simon
 
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importunity

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Simon Peter said:
The Poverty of the Disciples

9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!
11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.
12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
1 Corinthians 4:9-12 NIV

sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:10 NIV

The 'rich' of 2Cor 6:10 is the 'rich' that Paul talks about again in 2Cor 8:9
Notice how he compares worldly poverty with Heavenly riches.

The Poverty of Joseph and Mary

Scripture clearly tells us that Joseph and Mary were poor, they couldn't even afford a lamb for an offering:

22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"),
24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."
Luke 2:22-24 NIV

7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. "'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl.
8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'"
Leviticus 12:7-8 NIV

The Poverty of Jesus

19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
20 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Matthew 8:19-20 NIV

You seem to be saying:
Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has a house in the country.

When Jesus needed a donkey, He had to borrow one
When Jesus was buried He had to borrow a tomb

I agree that Jesus was never a beggar (God forbid), but He was poor* particularly in comparison to His wealth in Heaven.

*poor: of the underclass, but not a slave, about 25% of people within the Roman Empire were slaves

I agree with this.

Do you ever speak out against people within WoF who are fleecing the flock?

peace,
Simon

Simon, I will gadfly respond to all of these scriptures in context once you have a real answer to 2 Cor 8:9. You have not really answered the scripture to my knowledge by proper hermeneutics. I do have a response for all the ones you have posted. But instead of going on a rabbit trail just answer the scripture. And actually I answered the foxes have holes in an earlier post.
 
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Faulty

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Simon, I will gadfly respond to all of these scriptures in context once you have a real answer to 2 Cor 8:9. You have not really answered the scripture to my knowledge by proper hermeneutics. I do have a response for all the ones you have posted. But instead of going on a rabbit trail just answer the scripture. And actually I answered the foxes have holes in an earlier post.


That verse is in the immesiate context of verses 12-15:
For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”
2 Cor 8:12-15
In their abundance, they are to provide for the lack of other believers, and in turn, those they help are to provide back to them when they are in need.

If the notion somehow is that they will be rich, then there is no need for Paul to continue on telling them of their coming provision in their future time of need.

I realize that you're using chapter 9, and the multiplication principle to somehow bolster your clam, but the multiplication principle is for saints to be able to provide for the needs of other saints.You can't claim riches for every saint and have these chapters make any sense. Where one saint is prospering, the other is in poverty.

Like 8:15 said “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.” He who multiplies in abundance, has none of it left over, due to the giving. They are not rich, due to the hoarding.
 
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importunity

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One of the many problems is context. Paul is taking about a physical offering being taken up. Then he gives a physical example using Jesus. It's the same conversation in chapter 9. And he uses a physical example. There are Spiritual applications BUT Paul uses physical examples in talking about taking up a physical offering. It's pretty much that simple.
 
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Simon Peter

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Simon, I will gadfly respond to all of these scriptures in context once you have a real answer to 2 Cor 8:9. You have not really answered the scripture to my knowledge by proper hermeneutics. I do have a response for all the ones you have posted. But instead of going on a rabbit trail just answer the scripture. And actually I answered the foxes have holes in an earlier post.

No offense, but I'm also not very impressed with your hermeneutics. :)
All you did was copy paste four words from a Greek dictionary!

I could write out a proper exegesis of the text, but so far I think that approach would be a waste of my time.


One of the many problems is context. Paul is taking about a physical offering being taken up. Then he gives a physical example using Jesus. It's the same conversation in chapter 9. And he uses a physical example. There are Spiritual applications BUT Paul uses physical examples in talking about taking up a physical offering. It's pretty much that simple.

The key to understanding 2Cor 8:9 is context, but it's the context of the language, as well as the subject.

Paul sets the tone for 2Cor 8:9 in this earlier passage:

4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;
6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love;
7 by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left;
8 through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;
9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed;
10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 ESV


For Paul, and us, to be consistent we can't assume that Paul is contradicting himself.


4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
...
10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 ESV

our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.
2 Corinthians 8:9b ESV

The only intellectually honest and consistent way to interpret these two passages is that the disciples were physically poor but making people spiritually rich (2Cor 6:4-10), and that they followed Christ's example in that He became physically poor to make people spiritually rich (2Cor 8:9).

How do you interpret 2Cor 6:4-10?


peace,
Simon
 
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importunity

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Simon Peter said:
No offense, but I'm also not very impressed with your hermeneutics. :)
All you did was copy paste four words from a Greek dictionary!

I could write out a proper exegesis of the text, but so far I think that approach would be a waste of my time.

The key to understanding 2Cor 8:9 is context, but it's the context of the language, as well as the subject.

Paul sets the tone for 2Cor 8:9 in this earlier passage:

4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;
6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love;
7 by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left;
8 through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;
9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed;
10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 ESV

For Paul, and us, to be consistent we can't assume that Paul is contradicting himself.

4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
...
10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 ESV

our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.
2 Corinthians 8:9b ESV

The only intellectually honest and consistent way to interpret these two passages is that the disciples were physically poor but making people spiritually rich (2Cor 6:4-10), and that they followed Christ's example in that He became physically poor to make people spiritually rich (2Cor 8:9).

How do you interpret 2Cor 6:4-10?

peace,
Simon

Actually going to the Greek dictionary is only a very small part of what I did. If that's all you got then you really didn't pay attention. So I would suggest to read all post i have written on this before you make such a statement.
 
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Simon Peter

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Actually going to the Greek dictionary is only a very small part of what I did. If that's all you got then you really didn't pay attention. So I would suggest to read all post i have written on this before you make such a statement.


OK.

How do you interpret 2Cor 6:4-10?


peace,
Simon
 
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TasManOfGod

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many churches are like pyrimid schemes, of course the ones at the top can brag about how God has blessed them, everyone below them are supporting them
Do you really think things work that way? From my experience it is the prosporous supporting the struggling
 
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Simon Peter

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Do you really think things work that way? From my experience it is the prosporous supporting the struggling


Do you mean prosperous congregants supporting struggling pastors?

The approximate average church budget:

Staff: 40-50%
Buidling: 20%
Missions: 15% (most goes to staff again)
Church programs: 10%

What percentage of a church budget do you think goes to help the poor?


peace,
Simon
 
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rturner76

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Do you mean prosperous congregants supporting struggling pastors?

The approximate average church budget:

Staff: 40-50%
Buidling: 20%
Missions: 15% (most goes to staff again)
Church programs: 10%

What percentage of a church budget do you think goes to help the poor?


peace,
Simon

You forgot Bulding 75% maintenance workers
Church programs 75% staff

Pastor's Cadillac (off the books as a loss)
 
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TasManOfGod

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Do you mean prosperous congregants supporting struggling pastors?

The approximate average church budget:

Staff: 40-50%
Buidling: 20%
Missions: 15% (most goes to staff again)
Church programs: 10%

What percentage of a church budget do you think goes to help the poor?


peace,
Simon
From my experience the poor would rather share in a small proportion of a large amount than a large amount of hardly anything. After all there are some good at maths among the poor
 
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