The prodigy in israel

RandyPNW

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Capitalism and Socialism are both evil.
they are not God's politics

Capitalism is a free enterprise system. As such, I fail to see the evil in it unless the people involved in it are themselves evil?

a Kingdom is God's politics
Eden is God's politics, and is an economic system unlike either capitalism OR socialism.
Under capitalism, you still work and the product of your labor goes to someone else, who sells it and profits from it.
That is not how God would have it.

I have been saying this for perhaps 40 years! You know how people respond to my idea of a Christian Theocracy? They hate it!

THAT is the economic system of God. People will work for their own goods, not for bosses or investors/shareholders of capitalism or the state of socialism. You work, God provides, you enjoy the fruits of your labor.

All world economic systems are based on cursed, fallen world scarcity. When the New Earth is made, that curse is gone, there is no scarcity, gold and gemstones are used as base building materials.
In this post scarcity world, your labor is sufficient for yourself, and so is everyone else's there's no need for an economic system when God provides everything needed to thrive.

That is seriously naive. The world must trade because certain needed elements are only found in certain places in the world. There must be a flow of people and goods between neighbor nations. Nations cannot be isolated any more than people can be islands to themselves.

That's part of why there's no coveting. There's no scarcity to covet over.

also, you have Capitalism pegged wrong.
You think of Capitalism as free market, but that's not what Capitalism actually is, what you're thinking of is Mercantalism, but Mercantalism was replaced by Capitalism.

I'm not an economics expert, but I think I'm talking about Capitalism as I understand it. It is indeed a free market in theory, though there are many flaws in the system simply because people themselves are flawed and inconsistent.

Capitalism is the economic system where people publicly invest in a company, becoming shareholders, they do not perform labor for that company, they provided Capital for the company to use to buy what it needs to produce products, sell, make a profit, and that profit is gleened by shareholders, or the value of that company and stock goes up and the shareholder sells their stake to other investors.

That is a legitimate aspect of Capitalism. Of course people have to be passive investors to accumulate enough capital to enter into larger investments.

I think you have some points, but I think an ideal form of Capitalism doesn't seem to ever materialize, which leads you to reject a system that is much better than other systems. I remain a Capitalist and a Theocrat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;)
 
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RandyPNW

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Yes, Matthew 23 was speaking of Jerusalem being left Desolate, that is why it's important to understand that when Jesus was talking about the fig tree, He was talking about it bringing forth new leaves, that is, coming BACK from a period of desolation. It's being left desolate, comes BACK from desolation, and then the end of the age comes, which involves desolation again.

Only Israel's *restoration* is *not* the context! The Fig Tree bringing forth new leaves is not national restoration. It is the production of signs of a harvest season that instead of producing the harvest actually produces all of the birth pains of national failure. What should've been an awakening to Christ and to his Disciples actually turned into a lack of fruit bearing and in fact an aborted child, a miscarriage.

Okay?
that's the part you miss.
Jesus already warned that Jerusalem was going to be left desolate, and told His disciples, that at some point, it would come BACK from desolation, and when that happened, all these prophecies would be fulfilled within the span of a generation.

No, the restoration was to take place at the 2nd Coming. The production of leaves on the Fig Tree was an initial indication of growth, but actually represented signs of imminent national disaster. The tree, in effect, was cut down! This was not a restoration, but the destruction and a long exile before an ultimate restoration at the 2nd Coming.

That was Jesus' point.
You disconnect the verse from its context about the fig tree bringing forth new leaves, making that parable pointless.
What you end up doing is disconnecting Jesus return from the events He gave as signs preceding His return, and inject a 2000 year gap that Jesus did not at all indicate.
Leaving His return with NO signs, when Jesus gave signs.

Not at all. These signs were not signs of Jesus' Return, but rather, the signs of the imminent destruction of the temple, which was the very point upon which this Discourse began. They were "birth pains," indicating a child should've been born, but instead, these pains turned out to be signs of approaching devastation, the proliferation of false prophecy, false claims of an imminent Kingdom of God, persecution of the disciples of Jesus, signs of judgment against Israel such as natural disasters, etc.

These were not the signs of Jesus' 2nd Coming. They were the signs that Israel was about to be judged for failing to embrace the time of their harvest.

You do so with a few awful assumptions:
1. That Jesus knew when in time these things would happen and was sure it'd happen by AD70 or whatever, when Jesus professed not to know, Jesus knew signs and He knew once the events unfolded it'd happen quickly.

That is not an awful assumption. That is precisely what he did claim to know, that within the generation of those who were rejecting him there would follow a major dislocation of Jewish religion, along with an age-long desolation--the worst punishment in Israel's history. Jesus *did* indeed know the relative timing of this!

It was the day and hour of his return that he was led by his Father to keep secret. This was different from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by the pagan Romans.

That's the words Jesus uses in Revelation, "Behold I come quickly" not "Behold I come soon" They are not synonyms.

Funny, they sound very much like synonyms to me? The word means to be prompt and without necessary delay, without inferring a necessary immediacy in time. Not delaying something is to proceed inexorably towards the intended goal.

2. That when the disciples connected the questions about the temple being destroyed with the end of the age and His coming, that it's okay to disconnect them by a few thousand years. They connected the events, Jesus gave a response that was connected, He didn't disconnect the events, but you disconnect them because you believe it's AD70, but understand that Jesus did not return then, so obviously, by assumption, it was 2 separate events, not connected.

Jesus connected his Coming with the imminent event of Jerusalem's destruction by saying that Jerusalem's destruction would lead to an *age-long* Jewish Punishment, ending only at his 2nd Coming. In other words, the entire age would be sandwiched between the fall of the temple in 70 AD and his 2nd Coming at the end of the age.

No He absolutely did not. Show me a verse where Jesus says His return on the clouds with power and great glory is not part of "all these things".

Very simple. Jesus said he knew the relative time of Israel's judgment, which would be in the generation of his Disciples. But he said he did *not* know the day and hour of
his Return, later stating that this involved not calculating times and season.

In other words, the two events were stated to be opposite in terms of predictability. However, we were led to believe we would have to wait for a *long time* before he returned, because the Jewish Diaspora would have to take place 1st.

Jesus was focused on the destruction of the temple when he mentioned "all these things." He was speaking, in context, of the "birth pains" that had to precede this event. He excluded his 2nd Coming as something that would end the age of Jewish exile, a long time after the events of 70 AD.
 
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Lulav

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It is not about one proclaiming to be Messiah, but the one who proclaims himself to be the one true God.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
 
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Jamdoc

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Jesus used the fig tree, having no fruit, as being the condition of the first century generation of Jerusalem.

Similarly, Jesus used a fig tree in the parable of the fig tree, again referring to Jerusalem, to identify what generation would see His Return.

Randy, I gave the verses which support my view. I did not refer to dispensationalism at all. Let's just stick to the topic of the parable of the fig tree generation, okay ? And not veer off onto dispensationalism, which I am not a dispensantionalist, but a futurist.

Honestly the topic is whether or not this Yanuka Rabbi is one of the false prophets or false Christs that Jesus was speaking of.
Problem is, someone with a partial preterist or historicist eschatology will say "no he can't be one because that was all fulfilled in 70AD", and that's where the tangent comes from.

It is frankly, why I will always tag my threads with futurist only because preterist (yes even partial preterist) and historicist views will veer people into the weeds when they put their heads in the sand and say 'I don't have to watch, it was already fulfilled', and it becomes a hermeneutics debate over preterism and historicism, every single time.
 
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Jamdoc

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Capitalism is a free enterprise system. As such, I fail to see the evil in it unless the people involved in it are themselves evil?

Not entirely the foundation of Capitalism is less the free market which yes it springboards off of that Mercantalist/Market economy system, but the real root of it is Capital investment. That's the part where it gets off base, where people who have great love of money can just rake in riches off other people's labor through investment.
People have a misrepresented idea of what capitalism is, "if you work hard, you can get rich" while that's true, the richest people... aren't working, they're investing.
Gods economics... frankly ... doesn't seem to have money. That's why Jesus was kinda nonchalant about paying taxes, because ultimately, money doesn't matter, it's necessary to function in a broken world, but when all things are made new.. it won't have a purpose. Nowhere in any new earth descriptions are anything like a monetary based economic system of any kind.
There's simply people enjoying the fruits of their own labor.
Not investment or division of labor or anything like that.

I have been saying this for perhaps 40 years! You know how people respond to my idea of a Christian Theocracy? They hate it!
Like I said, all world economic and political systems are hostile to the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is seriously naive. The world must trade because certain needed elements are only found in certain places in the world. There must be a flow of people and goods between neighbor nations. Nations cannot be isolated any more than people can be islands to themselves.

All of this is based on a fallen world.
That's part of the point. God's economic system wouldn't work in a fallen world because a fallen world is cursed and scarcity is a thing.
Gold is valuable because it's rare, in the New Jerusalem they pave streets with it.
It won't be prized and valuable anymore, outside of its aesthetic appeal and industrial uses, iron is industrially useful but it is not particularly valuable... because 26% of the Earth's crust is Iron.
We make stuff out of it, that's about all.

I'm not an economics expert, but I think I'm talking about Capitalism as I understand it. It is indeed a free market in theory, though there are many flaws in the system simply because people themselves are flawed and inconsistent.

That is a legitimate aspect of Capitalism. Of course people have to be passive investors to accumulate enough capital to enter into larger investments.

I think you have some points, but I think an ideal form of Capitalism doesn't seem to ever materialize, which leads you to reject a system that is much better than other systems. I remain a Capitalist and a Theocrat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;)

Even if people were all good, capitalism at its core is based on cursed Earth scarcity, and doesn't really fit into God's economics or politics which are.. not based on scarcity.

God's economics also doesn't involve anyone profiting off of another person's labor, that's clear in scripture.
 
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Jamdoc

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Only Israel's *restoration* is *not* the context! The Fig Tree bringing forth new leaves is not national restoration. It is the production of signs of a harvest season that instead of producing the harvest actually produces all of the birth pains of national failure. What should've been an awakening to Christ and to his Disciples actually turned into a lack of fruit bearing and in fact an aborted child, a miscarriage.

No, the restoration was to take place at the 2nd Coming. The production of leaves on the Fig Tree was an initial indication of growth, but actually represented signs of imminent national disaster. The tree, in effect, was cut down! This was not a restoration, but the destruction and a long exile before an ultimate restoration at the 2nd Coming.

Ezekiel 36 has Israel coming back into the land, and then AFTER they are come into their land again they are given a new spirit and a new heart. Not before. After. They are gathered back in unbelief.

Not at all. These signs were not signs of Jesus' Return, but rather, the signs of the imminent destruction of the temple, which was the very point upon which this Discourse began. They were "birth pains," indicating a child should've been born, but instead, these pains turned out to be signs of approaching devastation, the proliferation of false prophecy, false claims of an imminent Kingdom of God, persecution of the disciples of Jesus, signs of judgment against Israel such as natural disasters, etc.

These were not the signs of Jesus' 2nd Coming. They were the signs that Israel was about to be judged for failing to embrace the time of their harvest.
They asked about the signs of His coming and He gave signs of His coming and even described His coming.

That is not an awful assumption. That is precisely what he did claim to know, that within the generation of those who were rejecting him there would follow a major dislocation of Jewish religion, along with an age-long desolation--the worst punishment in Israel's history. Jesus *did* indeed know the relative timing of this!

It was the day and hour of his return that he was led by his Father to keep secret. This was different from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by the pagan Romans.

When you unhitch 1 verse from the other, and totally whoosh the parable of the fig tree over your head, maybe you see it that way.

Funny, they sound very much like synonyms to me? The word means to be prompt and without necessary delay, without inferring a necessary immediacy in time. Not delaying something is to proceed inexorably towards the intended goal.

Quickly means once it happens it proceeds forward in quick succession.

Soon means that it happens shortly after it's mentioned. Jesus didn't know the time so He can't say soon. But He does know the cadence of events so He can say quickly.

If Jesus had part of the events happen in AD70, you could say soon, but not quickly, because there's a huge gap of thousands of years between 1 event and the next, generations of people being born and passing away, before 1 of the "things" in "all these things" can be fulfilled.

If Jesus had all the events take place within a few years of each other but it was out 2000 years from when He said it, well, He wouldn't say soon, but He could say quickly.

Jesus connected his Coming with the imminent event of Jerusalem's destruction by saying that Jerusalem's destruction would lead to an *age-long* Jewish Punishment, ending only at his 2nd Coming. In other words, the entire age would be sandwiched between the fall of the temple in 70 AD and his 2nd Coming at the end of the age.
All these things would need to be fulfilled before 1 generation passed away.
Many many generations have passed away between then and now.

Very simple. Jesus said he knew the relative time of Israel's judgment, which would be in the generation of his Disciples. But he said he did *not* know the day and hour of
his Return, later stating that this involved not calculating times and season.

In other words, the two events were stated to be opposite in terms of predictability. However, we were led to believe we would have to wait for a *long time* before he returned, because the Jewish Diaspora would have to take place 1st.

Jesus was focused on the destruction of the temple when he mentioned "all these things." He was speaking, in context, of the "birth pains" that had to precede this event. He excluded his 2nd Coming as something that would end the age of Jewish exile, a long time after the events of 70 AD.

Jesus had just mentioned His return on the clouds with power and great glory. He didn't say "all these things" and THEN, in a disconnected way, mention His second coming.

"All these things.. oh except that last thing I talked about that whole coming on the clouds thing, forget I mentioned that"
 
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Jamdoc

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It is not about one proclaiming to be Messiah, but the one who proclaims himself to be the one true God.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Eh, what Jesus said is that people will at first impersonate being Him. coming in His name.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

then just false prophets
and then later it will be false Christs and false prophets.
 
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Lulav

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Eh, what Jesus said is that people will at first impersonate being Him. coming in His name.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

then just false prophets
and then later it will be false Christs and false prophets.
Yes, many will come and have come, even in the times of the Apostles. But that is not the one Anti-Christ (which means instead of Christ)

This is the one to look for:

I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me;
if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
 
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RandyPNW

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Ezekiel 36 has Israel coming back into the land, and then AFTER they are come into their land again they are given a new spirit and a new heart. Not before. After. They are gathered back in unbelief.

I agree. Those who deny that the nation of Israel will be restored should pay attention to this. Often the argument is that the nation is presently anti-Christian, showing no interest in converting to Christianity. But God has been gathering the nation back into their land for a future spiritual restoration, although it will also obviously include judgment against those who wish to prevent this.

They asked about the signs of His coming and He gave signs of His coming and even described His coming.

The signs were "birth pains," which is a very negative thing. The sign of Christ's Coming Jesus indicated was his return from heaven, and not preliminary signs of advance warning. By contrast, the "birth pain" signs were an early warning to Jesus' disciples to prepare to escape before judgment fell upon Jerusalem through a pagan army. They were also a testimonial against Israel for failing to live in righteousness, indicating there would be judgment for this choice.

When you unhitch 1 verse from the other, and totally whoosh the parable of the fig tree over your head, maybe you see it that way.

Actually, discourses like this are not geometric in construction, and make little sense when organized to facilitate a presupposed doctrinal position. Common sense tells you what Jesus is saying, and not a particular order in the discussion. In reality, conversations can include flashbacks, prolepses, recaps, etc. When you try to arrange this by presupposed doctrine, you will mess up the *sense* of the conversation.

Quickly means once it happens it proceeds forward in quick succession.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, but "quickly" and "soon" are in fact synonyms. And "quickly" is used to give the sense that "soon" means there is a direct approach to the intended goal, avoiding digressions and interruptions. It doesn't at all have to mean "immediately," since the goal can be a long ways off and still you are shortening the path to get there by avoiding unnecessary delays.

Soon means that it happens shortly after it's mentioned. Jesus didn't know the time so He can't say soon. But He does know the cadence of events so He can say quickly.

This is not common sense speaking, but some kind of agenda. "Quickly" means "without unnecessary delay." It has little to do with pinpointing an exact time for the goal to be reached.

Jesus indicated his 2nd Coming would take place *at the end of the age.* He did not give the day and hour. He did say it would come without delay.

The birth pain signs that he provided he did say would take place in his own generation. He did not provide a specific day and hour, but he did say what generation it would be fulfilled in. All of the signs of Jerusalem's collapse took place in the generation of his apostles, to whom he spoke.

If Jesus had part of the events happen in AD70, you could say soon, but not quickly, because there's a huge gap of thousands of years between 1 event and the next, generations of people being born and passing away, before 1 of the "things" in "all these things" can be fulfilled.

Again, Jesus excepted his 2nd Coming from the Birth Pain signs that he was alluding to from the time he first mentioned them. His Coming was indicated to be the ultimate goal of the totality of these things, but not part of the "birth pain" signs of the fall of Jerusalem, which would happen in 70 AD. The 70 AD event was intended to be the target of the "birth pain" signs.

Clearly, the "birth pain" signs were "all these things," and "all these things" were intended to lead to the 70 AD Judgment. Jesus' "Coming" was the thing that would happen at the end of the judgment to which he referred, which only began a long age of Jewish Judgment.

Again, the main thing to which he referred was the Jewish Punishment initiated in 70 AD. The birth pains obviously preceded this. But this destruction of the temple and Jerusalem only began a long, long age of Jewish exile and punishment that would end with Jesus' Coming. Obviously, Jesus was excepting his Coming from the signs of Jewish Judgment in 70 AD!
 
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Jamdoc

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I agree. Those who deny that the nation of Israel will be restored should pay attention to this. Often the argument is that the nation is presently anti-Christian, showing no interest in converting to Christianity. But God has been gathering the nation back into their land for a future spiritual restoration, although it will also obviously include judgment against those who wish to prevent this.

Right so, the fig tree brings forth new leaves, but does not bear fruit yet.. do you see the picture Jesus was painting here?
The tree has leaves, but no fruit still, just before the second coming, you could say it blossoms, that's when they call for Jesus to return and save them, during the time of trouble,

Think about Psalm 18 for a moment
4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

While many may just see this as a nice prayer of faith to the Lord.. I see it as prophetic.. because compare this to the 5th and 6th seals in Revelation 6, and the first trumpet in Revelation 8..
Check it out, it flows in line with it
there's persecution, distress, ungodly men flooding into Jerusalem around the time of the Abomination of Desolation (5th seal), then, they cry out to the Lord... and the earth shakes, the skies become darkened, the heavens roll back (bowing the heavens), and He comes down, followed by hail and fire (like the first trumpet)

now we continue, and I find this amazing
16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

The Lord comes down from heaven, and His reward is with Him, and here the psalmist is even being gathered to Him, out of many waters (out of exile among the heathen). The thing the Jews gotta get on board with is that the cleanness isn't their works, but salvation in Christ.

anyway.. that's the picture painted in scripture, the Jews are scattered, regathered in unbelief, put through a time of intense persecution, and then call out for Jesus and He comes back as promised in Matthew 23. He comes back.. and then starts pouring wrath on the heathen, He comes back to receive the faithful, and destroy the ungodly.
and I find it an extra touch that the first trumpet is in this psalm.

The signs were "birth pains," which is a very negative thing. The sign of Christ's Coming Jesus indicated was his return from heaven, and not preliminary signs of advance warning. By contrast, the "birth pain" signs were an early warning to Jesus' disciples to prepare to escape before judgment fell upon Jerusalem through a pagan army. They were also a testimonial against Israel for failing to live in righteousness, indicating there would be judgment for this choice.

The reason why birth pains were used as a metaphor is again, to paint a picture. Labor is painful, it is miserable, but the end result of it is a child that is a blessing and a joy, and makes it worth all the pain and labor.
What Jesus was conveying is that there would be a period of pain and suffering through persecution unlike anything ever experienced, and like labor, it'd get more frequent and more intense the closer to birth it got.
But at the end of this labor, Christ comes back, it's worth the pain and suffering.

If you don't have Christ coming at the end of your labor... the metaphor crumbles and doesn't work.
Putting a 2000 year gap between the hard labor pains and Christ's return doesn't make any sense for the analogy.

Actually, discourses like this are not geometric in construction, and make little sense when organized to facilitate a presupposed doctrinal position. Common sense tells you what Jesus is saying, and not a particular order in the discussion. In reality, conversations can include flashbacks, prolepses, recaps, etc. When you try to arrange this by presupposed doctrine, you will mess up the *sense* of the conversation.

It's still in the context, and Jesus did not exclude His return from "all these things" That's only in your mind because you adhere to a position based on taking a verse out of context.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, but "quickly" and "soon" are in fact synonyms. And "quickly" is used to give the sense that "soon" means there is a direct approach to the intended goal, avoiding digressions and interruptions. It doesn't at all have to mean "immediately," since the goal can be a long ways off and still you are shortening the path to get there by avoiding unnecessary delays.

Not for a series of events. Quickly just means rapidly going from 1 event to the next, even if there is significant delay beforehand.

Let's look at it from a real world perspective.
The temple institute in Israel can build a temple quickly, they have the materials and money to do it, it's all ready.
They cannot however, do it soon, because the political climate won't allow them.
They have waited decades to be able to do it, but once they are able to do it, they can have the temple built quickly, in a year or two.

This is not common sense speaking, but some kind of agenda. "Quickly" means "without unnecessary delay." It has little to do with pinpointing an exact time for the goal to be reached.

Nope, quickly just means that once it starts, it progresses without delay. but there can be delay in the start.

Jesus indicated his 2nd Coming would take place *at the end of the age.* He did not give the day and hour. He did say it would come without delay.

The birth pain signs that he provided he did say would take place in his own generation. He did not provide a specific day and hour, but he did say what generation it would be fulfilled in. All of the signs of Jerusalem's collapse took place in the generation of his apostles, to whom he spoke.
That's not quickly, that'd be soon but not quickly because there's a massive delay between 1 event and the next.

Again, Jesus excepted his 2nd Coming from the Birth Pain signs that he was alluding to from the time he first mentioned them. His Coming was indicated to be the ultimate goal of the totality of these things, but not part of the "birth pain" signs of the fall of Jerusalem, which would happen in 70 AD. The 70 AD event was intended to be the target of the "birth pain" signs.

Clearly, the "birth pain" signs were "all these things," and "all these things" were intended to lead to the 70 AD Judgment. Jesus' "Coming" was the thing that would happen at the end of the judgment to which he referred, which only began a long age of Jewish Judgment.

Again, the main thing to which he referred was the Jewish Punishment initiated in 70 AD. The birth pains obviously preceded this. But this destruction of the temple and Jerusalem only began a long, long age of Jewish exile and punishment that would end with Jesus' Coming. Obviously, Jesus was excepting his Coming from the signs of Jewish Judgment in 70 AD!

YOU except the return from "all these things".
but nothing in scripture does.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes, many will come and have come, even in the times of the Apostles. But that is not the one Anti-Christ (which means instead of Christ)

This is the one to look for:

I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me;
if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

But most of those past false messiahs did not come in Jesus' name, that's a more recent thing, maybe over the last century and a half if not less.
Sometimes people who DIDN'T claim to be the second coming of Jesus were attributed that by other people, like Halie Selassie by the Rastafarians in Jamaica
Selassie himself was horrified that people did that, that's why he brought in Bob Marley and converted him to Ethiopian Orthodoxy before he passed away, to say "hey I'm not Jesus, but you should get to know the real Jesus"

What Jesus talked about was people actually coming and claiming to be Him returned.
 
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RandyPNW

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Right so, the fig tree brings forth new leaves, but does not bear fruit yet.. do you see the picture Jesus was painting here?
The tree has leaves, but no fruit still, just before the second coming, you could say it blossoms, that's when they call for Jesus to return and save them, during the time of trouble,

I don't read too much into Jesus' use of the seasons. It just means that the time for fruit-bearing had come, ie the Messiah had come. However, at the very time the tree should be progressing, the tree develops bad signs for Israel.

"All these things" were the "birth pains" of a pregnancy, a pregnancy that should've produced children for God. However, Israel turned against Christ, and they became spiritually barren.

So these "birth pains" indicated that Israel was approaching judgment in that very generation, in that very "season," if you will. Rumors of war indicated the Roman Army was on the march. Famines and earthquakes indicated God's displeasure with Israel. And their specific sins were the persecution of the saints. "All these things" would happen in this one generation, leading to the destruction of the temple.

Reference to Christ's Coming was *not* one of the signs. It is quite obvious--the signs were advance warnings of the approaching Roman judgment. Jesus' Coming was to follow that judgment in the distant future, after Israel had gone into exile for the longest punishment in their history.

Christ's Coming was a sign indeed. But the sign was no advance warning. It was itself the end of the age and the final judgment of the whole world.

Think about Psalm 18 for a moment

God's character is uniform throughout the entire Bible, and in every Psalm. The symbols of judgment are the same throughout the Bible. I don't wish to read an eschatological scenario into a particular Psalm unless there is explicit reference to it. We may note the similarities, but that's the best we can do.

Putting a 2000 year gap between the hard labor pains and Christ's return doesn't make any sense for the analogy.

Sure it does. Israel labored for nothing in Jesus' generation because they rejected Jesus himself. His 2nd Coming, thousands of years later, is a replay of the same because the issues are now multiplied across the post-Christian world.

The birth pains clearly were negative signs. They did not joyously proclaim the coming of a baby. Instead they portended destruction, perhaps more of a miscarriage.

It's still in the context, and Jesus did not exclude His return from "all these things" That's only in your mind because you adhere to a position based on taking a verse out of context.

On the contrary, Jesus said he knew, generally, when the destruction of Jerusalem would take place. But he said the day of his Return was hidden--2 separate events. One event would take place "in this generation." The other event would take place after an extensive period of Jewish exile.

The birth pains were clearly separate from the end of the age and Jesus' return. Rather, it is you who are reading your own preconceived notions into this. I know this because it's been a popular eschatology for the past 100+ years in some places. You're just carrying the same message.

Not for a series of events. Quickly just means rapidly going from 1 event to the next, even if there is significant delay beforehand.

Not always. It may certainly be used that way. But in a certain context it may indicate something that takes place over a long period of time, yet without any unnecessary delays.

It really depends on the size of the project. If for example, the goal is to fill the world with people and habitable lots, then we could talk centuries and still describe a "quick" development towards this relative to eons of slow development, slowed down by wars and plagues.

For example, look at how fast Japan entered into the modern industrialized world. It happened fairly quickly over a 40 years period in the late 19th century. We may not think of a 40 year period as being "quick." But it is quick if it is seen relative to its opposite, a centuries-long industrial development that can take place under different circumstances.

Let's look at it from a real world perspective.
The temple institute in Israel can build a temple quickly, they have the materials and money to do it, it's all ready.
They cannot however, do it soon, because the political climate won't allow them.
They have waited decades to be able to do it, but once they are able to do it, they can have the temple built quickly, in a year or two.

As much as some Jews may want to build a temple--perhaps the Orthodox, I place no value on such a project, whether from a prophetic perspective or not. Jesus fulfilled the temple worship by becoming himself the new eternal temple of God.
 
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Lulav

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But most of those past false messiahs did not come in Jesus' name, that's a more recent thing, maybe over the last century and a half if not less.
Sometimes people who DIDN'T claim to be the second coming of Jesus were attributed that by other people, like Halie Selassie by the Rastafarians in Jamaica
Selassie himself was horrified that people did that, that's why he brought in Bob Marley and converted him to Ethiopian Orthodoxy before he passed away, to say "hey I'm not Jesus, but you should get to know the real Jesus"

What Jesus talked about was people actually coming and claiming to be Him returned.
They won't be using the name of Jesus, but the title of
Messiah.

He (Jesus) did not come in his own name, but his fathers.
 
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Lulav

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As much as some Jews may want to build a temple--perhaps the Orthodox, I place no value on such a project, whether from a prophetic perspective or not. Jesus fulfilled the temple worship by becoming himself the new eternal temple of God.
Yet this has not happened yet, so I DO place a lot of value on that.
Isa 2

Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. :clap::clap::clap:

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 
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Jamdoc

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They won't be using the name of Jesus, but the title of
Messiah.

He (Jesus) did not come in his own name, but his fathers.

The people I'm referring to actually made claims to being the second coming or reincarnation of Jesus.
 
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RandyPNW

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Yet this has not happened yet, so I DO place a lot of value on that.
Isa 2

Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. :clap::clap::clap:

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Yes, I realized that there are a number of passages that speak of a future in which the "temple of God" plays a role. My own view, in light of NT theology, is that the OT always uses the language of the OT while that era is still in play. To do otherwise would suggest to the people in that era that they don't have to take the Law seriously.

There is always a NT equivalent of the symbols of the Law. And we are clearly told in Hebrews that the OT imagery is fulfilled in Christ. The old was, in the author's time, passing away. The temple was soon to be destroyed, I believe *forever.*

To resurrect the OT images to be practiced again runs counter to everything Paul taught. The Apostle John called those commandments the "old," suggesting that what matters is the "new." The old only serves to substantiate the new.

In Ezekiel we read of a vision in chs. 40-48 in which he saw a temple high up on a mountain--one that's never been built. It was specifically stated that this vision was given for the people living at that time who were losing their OT worship--the temple was destroyed. They were to be ashamed because they no longer had a temple by which to obey God and worship Him according to the Law.

That temple, which was never intended to be built, but was given to shame Israel for not having one at that time, is associated with a future prophecy in which Israel is restored to the land. It is the "Jewish Hope." But they will not be restored to temple worship since we are taught in the NT that Christ is the true, eternal temple of God. The OT temple was purely symbolic of the eternal reality.
 
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Lulav

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The OT temple was purely symbolic of the eternal reality.

I tend to disagree with that viewpoint.
Ex 25:According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The tabernacle was built to specific dimensions. And these specifications were delivered by the LORD himself.
These were patterned after the tabernacle or temple in Heaven. That is eternal reality.

Hebrews 8:5 The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
This is not purely symbolic but reality for this same temple or tabernacle in heaven is what we see in the end of days, found in the book of revelation.

Rev 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
This is where Yeshua ascended to after he told Mary not to touch or cling to him.
 
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RandyPNW

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I tend to disagree with that viewpoint.
Ex 25:According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The tabernacle was built to specific dimensions. And these specifications were delivered by the LORD himself.
These were patterned after the tabernacle or temple in Heaven. That is eternal reality.

Hebrews 8:5 The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
This is not purely symbolic but reality for this same temple or tabernacle in heaven is what we see in the end of days, found in the book of revelation.

Rev 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
This is where Yeshua ascended to after he told Mary not to touch or cling to him.

I understand your argument, but I don't see the author of Hebrews saying that the temple in heaven had the same dimensions and the same consistency as the temple that had been on earth. Why would there be a "pattern" on earth of something in heaven if they are the same? And how can something in heaven be exactly like something on earth?

Heb 8. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

The author was explaining how the priesthood of Christ was new, and utterly different from the priesthood of the Law, although they were being compared. It would be the same with the temple in heaven and the temple on the earth. Although they are being compared, they are utterly different in constitution because the heavenly temple presents a new structure, invalidating the OT temple worship.

To return to OT temple worship is not what Paul taught. And it therefore seems unbiblical to present an eschatological reality that is contrary to NT theology. Just my opinion...
 
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Douggg

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Keep an eye out for the man they call the Yanuka in Israel .. looks like he , along with the Jews behind him are about to shake the religious world up imo

thoughts?
He could be the false prophet. Time will tell.

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 comes after Gog/Magog. The covenant to be confirmed will not be a peace treaty, but the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle that Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

And how is the covenant to be confirmed, according to those verses? By having the law read to nation of Israel, from the place of God's choosing. Which that place is considered by Jews as presently the temple mount.

The Yanuka could be the false prophet, who anoints the prince who shall come as the king of Israel, making that person the Antichrist. And in the presence of the Antichrist, recites the torah - which he is already being claimed to know by memory word for word.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Jews (Judaism) believe that the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. I don't see the Yanuka doing that, as it appears that the Yanuka is more of a religious figure. I am keeping my eye on Zelenski, who would be someone more likely to be engaged in battles.
 
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Lulav

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I understand your argument, but I don't see the author of Hebrews saying that the temple in heaven had the same dimensions and the same consistency as the temple that had been on earth. Why would there be a "pattern" on earth of something in heaven if they are the same? And how can something in heaven be exactly like something on earth?
Actually vice-versa How can something on earth be exactly like something in heaven. Because the LORD gave explicit instructions on how to build it and also provided the wisdom to the men,

Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3. I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of craftsmanship 4 to devise artistic works for work with gold, with silver, and with bronze, 5 and in the cutting of stones for settings, and in carving of wood, to work in all manner of craftsmanship. 6 I, indeed, I have given him Oholiab, the son of Ahisamak, of the tribe of Dan, and I have given skill to all who are specially skilled, that they may make everything that I have commanded you​
Heb 8. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

The author was explaining how the priesthood of Christ was new, and utterly different from the priesthood of the Law, although they were being compared. It would be the same with the temple in heaven and the temple on the earth. Although they are being compared, they are utterly different in constitution because the heavenly temple presents a new structure, invalidating the OT temple worship.
That makes no sense. How can the heavenly temple be newer than the tabernacle it was patterned after?
To return to OT temple worship is not what Paul taught. And it therefore seems unbiblical to present an eschatological reality that is contrary to NT theology. Just my opinion...
Was Paul not doing the requirements according to things done involving the temple?
18 On the next day Paul went with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 He greeted them and recounted one by one what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.​
20 When they heard this, they glorified the Lord. Then they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who believe, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed concerning you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to observe the customs. 22 What then shall be done? The assembly will certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you. We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take these men and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may have their heads shaved. Then all will know that what they were told concerning you is nothing, but that you yourself live in observance of the law. 25 As for the Gentiles who believe, we have written and concluded that they should observe no such thing, except that they abstain from food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from strangled animals, and from blood.”​
26 Then on the next day, Paul took the men and purified himself with them. And he went into the temple, announcing when the days of purification would be complete and an offering would be given for each one of them.​

27 When the seven days were nearly concluded, the Jews from Asia saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man teaching all men everywhere against the people and the law and this place.

 
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