The Prodigal Son - making some progress with Pastor

[FireDragon76]

Pastor gave a sermon today on the Prodigal Son, but he really focused on the younger prodigal son, and not the elder brother (and sadly, our lectionary reading abridged this passage), and I wanted him to see how it could be heard as a tool of oppression, and not just comfort. Sometimes this is used as a story to communicate "Humility for thee, but not for me", or what I like to call, "repentance inappropriate content".

I had trouble explaining myself but we eventually did reach a common vocabulary. He said that sometimes, people can feel they are earning their repentance, by feeling pride in feeling guilty. And that's exactly what I was trying to communicate to him, that it's not good enough to merely feel guilty when you get called out or catch yourself doing something bad, you also have to realize you have hurt another person. People should care about justice and compassion- pious guilt is not a substitute for those things, even if packaged in a sermon about a beloved parable.

So, I think I am making progress with my pastor. I am trying to help him see that messages that he thinks are comforting are not necessarily, because some of us have actually been oppressed by messages telling us to just be more humble or more repentant.

And I realized, when you take it in the wider perspective, the story of the Prodigal Son is really good news indeed, because it means there is forgiveness for both the Prodigal and the Older Brother, without neglecting the real pain that Older Brothers of the world cause through their shaming, persecution, and stigmatization. But it has to be preached with sensitivity to the historic role that Christianity has had in oppressing minorities and the poor.

It was really tough to talk to Pastor about this but I felt I had to. I think I have to decompress a bit because I'm not used to having to talk to authority figures like that, everything I experienced in Orthodoxy worked against it.

What really triggered this conversation was Jane the Bane linking a video on Youtube, Counterpoint, which was about how political/cultural conservatives like Jordan Peterson are using religious symbolism to promote self help as an alternative to addressing social justice. It got me thinking about how people can hear religious messages as tools of oppression, and I don't think that's right, so I wanted to try to make a difference and try to get my pastor to see concretely how these messages can be damaging.

 

[Halbhh]

And I realized, when you take it in the wider perspective, the story of the Prodigal Son is really good news indeed, because it means there is forgiveness for both the Prodigal and the Older Brother, without neglecting the real pain that Older Brothers of the world cause through their shaming, persecution, and stigmatization. But it has to be preached with sensitivity to the historic role that Christianity has had in oppressing minorities and the poor.

That's right. Both sons are being brought in (helped) from their wrongs back into fellowship with the Father, as our substitute pastor today helped us learn. While a good sermon could be made from either son alone, and certainly the main character, the prodigal son, is quite important to learn a lot from, it would be good to hear some on the other son too of course, even if less.

It seems to me that I have trouble understanding your language in the remainder of your post -- it's making to many less common references (possibly also a little too abstract in wording). So it would take a lot of work just to get across clearly what you mean then, since the other person (the pastor in this instance) is their own unique person, and won't necessarily share the same ideas, for starters, and just as important, may not even be the same temperament intellectually -- there are many kinds of ways of thinking/feeling that are effective in life, and unalike.

Do you feel the pastor communicated something about the need of the prodigal to repent as if only some people are prodigal? It does seem a story ultimately for 100% of believers, in that all need to repent at times. If the pastor at all made it seem only some do, and others never do, perhaps it would help to simply communicate that -- e.g.: "It seemed as if we are saying that only prodigals need to repent." -- to indicate the unclear teaching, so that the pastor can better make the clear lesson without accidentally causing a wrong idea to seem part of the lesson. All this is mere a guess at only one possible thing you might have meant, as I can't tell exactly what you are saying, actually.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Church decontextualized the Prodigal Son and turned it into repentance inappropriate content so that they could manipulate people, when Jesus actual purpose is to point out how the pharisees are behaving like the Elder Brother.

As my pastor says, Jesus came for the least, the last and the lost, or in my words, that God has a preferential love. I don't want him to lose sight of that in favor of a generalized "we're all sinners". That may be true in the abstract, but concretely, people are victimized by religion (the Elder Brother), and it isn't just to sweep that aside and say "so what? we're all sinners". That's the same as "earning your repentance", or feeling pride in your guilt, as my pastor put it.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, N.T. Wright was the first person I encountered who said the Church's traditional reading of the Prodigal Son was wrong, and years ago when I heard this, I was simply incredulous, I thought he was overstating the case. But now, after encountering more of Lutheranism and Liberation Theology, I understand where he is coming from, because I can understand how damaging other interpretations can be. It's been over-spiritualized. The Liberationist aspects of the Gospel have been intentionally minimized because the people interpreting it had vested interests not to read it that way.

 

[Halbhh]

The Church decontextualized the Prodigal Son and turned it into repentance inappropriate content so that they could manipulate people, when Jesus actual purpose is to point out how the pharisees are behaving like the Elder Brother.

As my pastor says, Jesus came for the least, the last and the lost, or in my words, that God has a preferential love. I don't want him to lose sight of that in favor of a generalized "we're all sinners". That may be true in the abstract, but concretely, people are victimized by religion (the Elder Brother), and it isn't just to sweep that aside and say "so what? we're all sinners". That's the same as "earning your repentance", or feeling pride in your guilt, as my pastor put it.

I think I'm highly immune to the idea I could ever "earn" or merit my own repentance/forgiveness, because of my actual life.

When you get to be as prodigal as I was, it removes any personal illusions about oneself as being somehow more worthy of being forgiven than others (what a concept even!).

As if to imagine I somehow could merit or earn the amazing grace He gives me in spite of being such a clear sinner. That would never occur to me. (I'm a lot closer to that woman than washed His feet with her hair.)

Instead I'm bowled over, amazed, that He redeemed me.

So, it doesn't even occur to me personally to think I'd deserved forgiving more than others. That's perhaps the only good thing about being so prodigal.

About the elder brother -- the judgemental people. Yes, indeed, they have something they truly need to learn, those that are still being judgmental. They need it before it's too late for them.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You might look for another analogy than the prodigal son. The prodigal son is the worst possible example to make your point. It isn't that the prodigal son just was spoiled, ungrateful, and foolish. The context of him demanding his inheritance when he did was the height of rudeness, seeing how in inheritances like that are normally only given out when the parents die! He's basically impatient that his father hasn't keeled over so he can have his money.

Anyway that is going to be tough sell trying to make that about oppression by the other brother, when the prodigal actually has earned a lot of legitimate scorn. And quiet frankly trying to shoe horn it into that kind of message will likely not work well. The parable of the servant that was forgiven a huge debt only to collect on a smaller debt by throwing his fellow servant into debtors prison would actually work much better.

 

[Halbhh]

You might look for another analogy than the prodigal son. The prodigal son is the worst possible example to make your point. It isn't that the prodigal son just was spoiled, ungrateful, and foolish. The context of him demanding his inheritance when he did was the height of rudeness, seeing how in inheritances like that are normally only given out when the parents die! He's basically impatient that his father hasn't keeled over so he can have his money.

Anyway that is going to be tough sell trying to make that about oppression by the other brother, when the prodigal actually has earned a lot of legitimate scorn. And quiet frankly trying to shoe horn it into that kind of message will likely not work well. The parable of the servant that was forgiven a huge debt only to collect on a smaller debt by throwing his fellow servant into debtors prison would actually work much better.

We learn that none are worthy on their own, not even the most righteous acting. Those that didn't go off as a prodigal are at best only slightly less in danger just on their own merit. If they judge the prodigal in a scornful way, they can put themselves personally in great danger on the Day of Judgement. His Words on judging others should give anyone pause:

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 7 NIV

and

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Basically none can live up to the too-high standard they set when they condemn (scorn) others.

It's a standard no one can themselves pass.

Consider:

18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

We are nowhere near good enough to judge others as persons (which isn't the same as merely saying what is right or wrong), even if we are doing well in our walk.

The parable of the unforgiving debtor though is quite invaluable, and can definitely apply for instance if someone is angry at a prodigal that is returning.

We are to rush to embrace and celebrate the prodigal that returns in repentance. If they wronged us personally -- then what a wonderful opportunity to totally forgive them, if one has not yet!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Pastor gave a sermon today on the Prodigal Son, but he really focused on the younger prodigal son, and not the elder brother (and sadly, our lectionary reading abridged this passage), and I wanted him to see how it could be heard as a tool of oppression, and not just comfort. Sometimes this is used as a story to communicate "Humility for thee, but not for me", or what I like to call, "repentance inappropriate content".

I had trouble explaining myself but we eventually did reach a common vocabulary. He said that sometimes, people can feel they are earning their repentance, by feeling pride in feeling guilty. And that's exactly what I was trying to communicate to him, that it's not good enough to merely feel guilty when you get called out or catch yourself doing something bad, you also have to realize you have hurt another person. People should care about justice and compassion- pious guilt is not a substitute for those things, even if packaged in a sermon about a beloved parable.

So, I think I am making progress with my pastor. I am trying to help him see that messages that he thinks are comforting are not necessarily, because some of us have actually been oppressed by messages telling us to just be more humble or more repentant.

And I realized, when you take it in the wider perspective, the story of the Prodigal Son is really good news indeed, because it means there is forgiveness for both the Prodigal and the Older Brother, without neglecting the real pain that Older Brothers of the world cause through their shaming, persecution, and stigmatization. But it has to be preached with sensitivity to the historic role that Christianity has had in oppressing minorities and the poor.

It was really tough to talk to Pastor about this but I felt I had to. I think I have to decompress a bit because I'm not used to having to talk to authority figures like that, everything I experienced in Orthodoxy worked against it.

What really triggered this conversation was Jane the Bane linking a video on Youtube, Counterpoint, which was about how political/cultural conservatives like Jordan Peterson are using religious symbolism to promote self help as an alternative to addressing social justice. It got me thinking about how people can hear religious messages as tools of oppression, and I don't think that's right, so I wanted to try to make a difference and try to get my pastor to see concretely how these messages can be damaging.

The best message I heard on that topic was to not make the prodigal or elder son the goal mentality, but the love of the Father.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think I'm highly immune to the idea I could ever "earn" or merit my own repentance/forgiveness, because of my actual life.

When you get to be as prodigal as I was, it removes any personal illusions about oneself as being somehow more worthy of being forgiven than others (what a concept even!).

As if to imagine I somehow could merit or earn the amazing grace He gives me in spite of being such a clear sinner. That would never occur to me. (I'm a lot closer to that woman than washed His feet with her hair.)

Instead I'm bowled over, amazed, that He redeemed me.

So, it doesn't even occur to me personally to think I'd deserved forgiving more than others. That's perhaps the only good thing about being so prodigal..

Actually, this is potentially what my pastor meant by guilt tainted by pride. The point is not to boast about your awareness of your sins, but to start doing justice and loving mercy. Else what you are really talking about is your religion is still all about you. Dietrich Bonhoeffer said real Christianity isn't about that at all, it's about being a person for others. In that scheme, there is no room to focus on "my sin" at the expense of my neighbor's needs.

That's one reason I don't like Amazing Grace anymore. They had it at church today as an opening hymn but I wouldn't sing it. It's an antiquated, narcissistic spirituality that is all about inwardness, the very thing that Bonhoeffer said was drawing to a close. If we have inappropriate guilt now days, we can go to shrink and get it cured for life. We don't need religion for that.

Not everything is perfect at my church, but it's a work in progress. One step at a time...

 

[FireDragon76]

You might look for another analogy than the prodigal son. The prodigal son is the worst possible example to make your point. It isn't that the prodigal son just was spoiled, ungrateful, and foolish. The context of him demanding his inheritance when he did was the height of rudeness, seeing how in inheritances like that are normally only given out when the parents die! He's basically impatient that his father hasn't keeled over so he can have his money.

Anyway that is going to be tough sell trying to make that about oppression by the other brother, when the prodigal actually has earned a lot of legitimate scorn. And quiet frankly trying to shoe horn it into that kind of message will likely not work well. The parable of the servant that was forgiven a huge debt only to collect on a smaller debt by throwing his fellow servant into debtors prison would actually work much better.

I know people that have asked for their inheritence early, and it wasn't because they hated their parents, but because they had a need.

 

[Halbhh]

Actually, this is potentially what my pastor meant by guilt tainted by pride. The point is not to boast about your awareness of your sins, but to start doing justice and loving mercy. Else what you are really talking about is your religion is still all about you. Dietrich Bonhoeffer said real Christianity isn't about that at all, it's about being a person for others. In that scheme, there is no room to focus on "my sin" at the expense of my neighbor's needs.

That's one reason I don't like Amazing Grace anymore. They had it at church today as an opening hymn but I wouldn't sing it. It's an antiquated, narcissistic spirituality that is all about inwardness, the very thing that Bonhoeffer said was drawing to a close. If we have inappropriate guilt now days, we can go to shrink and get it cured for life. We don't need religion for that.

Not everything is perfect at my church, but it's a work in progress. One step at a time...

Repenting isn't prideful. It should be a relief. A weight lifted. The heart more opened because you confess.

 

[FireDragon76]

Repenting isn't prideful. It should be a relief. A weight lifted. The heart more opened because you confess.

Opened to whom? Yourself, or your neighbor?

My pastor said people can experience guilt tainted by pride. The sort of thing where somebody yells at their spouse, then feels guilty because they "slipped up again" and don't measure up to their ideals, instead of because they just hurt another human being. The focus is still on the self, its just veiled in a concern about guilt.

 

[Halbhh]

Opened to whom? Yourself, or your neighbor?

My pastor said people can experience guilt tainted by pride. The sort of thing where somebody yells at their spouse, then feels guilty because they "slipped up again" and don't measure up to their ideals, instead of because they just hurt another human being. The focus is still on the self, its just veiled in a concern about guilt.

Sin separates us from God, but repenting, confessing our wrong results in our being cleansed.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

As you know, in the Lutheran church we confess, and if sincere the above will happen.

The heart opened means more loving towards others in my experience. After I confess I'm so much more wanting to love others warmly, not just politely. It's like the heart is restored to full ability.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sin separates us from God, but repenting, confessing our wrong results in our being cleansed.

This isn't how Lutherans think about our relationship to God. Luther told Melanchthon that no sin can separate us from God. God simply does not keep score. We should take all that energy we used trying to please God, and use it to serve our neighbor.

The heart opened means more loving towards others in my experience. After I confess I'm so much more wanting to love others warmly, not just politely.

There are deeper issues, though, like how Christians seem to dismiss social and economic injustices by using religion's consolations as a shield from criticism of itself and institutions enmeshed with it. That is not in keeping with Jesus' self-sacrificial love. As the Episcopalians rightly pray before communion:

"..Deliver us from the presumption of coming to this Table for solace only, and not for strength; for pardon only, and not for renewal... "

 

[Halbhh]

"Love one another, as I have loved you."

When a person's heart is softened, open, they can love others.

That can take so many forms.

Including very much: 17"Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow."

 

[FireDragon76]

"Love one another, as I have loved you."

When a person's heart is softened, open, they can love others.

That can take so many forms.

Including very much: 17"Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow."

I agree that's important but it's important also that isn't tainted with pride so that God can do the work, not us, in changing our hearts. Preaching should aim not to be overly sentimental and manipulative, it needs to just speak truly about the human condition.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree that's important but it's important also that isn't tainted with pride so that God can do the work, not us, in changing our hearts. Preaching should aim not to be overly sentimental and manipulative, it needs to just speak truly about the human condition.

That's right. Pride is actually emphasized as a key sin that blocks salvation entirely, Christ says.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree that's important but it's important also that isn't tainted with pride so that God can do the work, not us, in changing our hearts. Preaching should aim not to be overly sentimental and manipulative, it needs to just speak truly about the human condition.

Yes, this is such an important key thing more people need to hear.

I had been responding earlier while at a traffic light with a cell phone. So I wrote the briefest possible response, maybe too brief. I was referring to His use of the word "never" in the famous passage which you may remember from very recently as the gospel reading (from our Lutheran 3-year cycle of gospel reading). Let me instead of paraphrasing, just refer to the full passage in the NIV:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."


Or in the NRSV we typically use in our church: "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

Since He said "never", and since we already can learn pride is a major sin elsewhere, we get that we truly have to humble. That plays out in many ways too. We should listen to Him as children would, and follow Him as children would, and be humble like children always. (So that when we stumble into pride, as is common, we need later to repent -- to confess and turn and become humble again).

I was trying to say earlier that i'm like the woman that wept and washed His feet like her hair -- having been so sinful so that it's very strongly clear to me I'm saved only by grace (it's not even possible for me to think I was a 'pretty good christian' or some such illusion). So for me, unlike many, I learned this on my knees. Even before I learned it intellectually, also, such as in Ephesians 2, that I'm saved only by grace. I had mentioned this earlier because I'm trying to understand why some other people elsewhere (not you, but others elsewhere) seem stuck on Ephesians 2:8-9, as if verse 10 did not come next. Sorry for getting side tracked on my own thoughts while responding to your post earlier; that may have been misleading.

But the thing you say here is so crucial, so central, and one of the best things Lutherans can help bring to the rest of Christianity (we aren't the only who can, but we probably learn this well).

 

[Halbhh]

people can feel they are earning their repentance, by feeling pride in feeling guilty

Ah! I bet this is a main focus for you in this thread, and reading it again helps me better understand your posts.

I could only speak for myself alone, and not other people (of course!), but for me instead of pride at sin I felt ashamed and guilty, as is perfectly a natural response to having done wrong and realizing it.

And also I felt so very deeply grateful later, after having more fully confessed and repented, and very relieved.

Do you think some people feel proud of feeling guilty?? That's such an alien thing to imagine, for me. I did not grow up in the Lutheran church, or really in any one church, so I can only try to imagine a very different mindset than my own to try to imagine that.

Everyone is unique, and we can't imagine what others think in their hearts, but we can only talk about our own experiences I think, and also can speak of things that we can learn from stories that are true.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah! I bet this is a main focus for you in this thread, and reading it again helps me better understand your posts.

I could only speak for myself alone, and not other people (of course!), but for me instead of pride at sin I felt ashamed and guilty, as is perfectly a natural response to having done wrong and realizing it.

And also I felt so very deeply grateful later, after having more fully confessed and repented, and very relieved.

Do you think some people feel proud of feeling guilty?? That's such an alien thing to imagine, for me. I did not grow up in the Lutheran church, or really in any one church, so I can only try to imagine a very different mindset than my own to try to imagine that.

Pastor believes some do. I notice in many mature Lutherans, they simply don't talk about their sins in the same way other Christians do.

I think its alien because some Christians make a big deal about testimonials and are proud of their ability to label sin as sin, even in themselves. That all goes back to deeper issues like a need to be in control, and ties back to what I was saying about people like Jordan Peterson marketing Christian symbolism as "self-help". As Bonhoeffer wrote, when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die- when a person is dead, there is simply no room for inwardness or self-consciousness like this. Christianity is not about "building a better you", one piece or step at a time, or merely about getting in touch with spiritual feelings. It's more profound than that. As Luther said, it's about daily drowning our old self and being born anew.

Being as how we are dead and yet made alive in Christ, its fitting we should be able to move forward and serve our neighbor self-sacrificially, not holding anything back, and wanting to get beyond our comfort zones to serve our neighbors. But many, many Christians don't see it that way.