The Problem With Evangelism

[JAL]

Seriously? - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
Matthew 5:14-16
“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Um...yes. Seriously.

 

[Saint Steven]

I hope prophetic utterance includes prophetic listening.

@JAL I never really got a response to post #12. (quoted above)

And the prophecy you referred to below is defined as: "... the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort." - 1Cor.14:3
Therefore edification not evangelism. "... the one who prophesies edifies the church." - 1Cor.14:4
You haven't really supported the idea of prophetic evangelism. (whereas I have)
The woman at the well would be an example of what I am talking about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JAL said: ↑
The article offers good practical advice for human relationships but has nothing to do with biblical evangelism in the strictest sense.

What most Christians don't realize is that Scripture defines evangelism as prophetic utterance, as I've demonstrated elsewhere (see post 179 on another thread, and post 180). That's just one of the (several) reasons that Paul considered the pursuit of prophecy to be virtually chief among our priorities (1Cor 14:1).

 

[Saint Steven]

Um...yes. Seriously.

"You are the light of the world. …", is not an evangelistic statement?
"... let your light shine before others …", is not an evangelistic statement?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Seriously? - lol

Matthew 5:14-16
“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

 

[JAL]

Your found paradigms aren't worth 20 cents if you don't get out there and do something with them.

Ok so let's summarize:
(1) Your position: Just get out there and evangelize.
(2) My position: Wait upon the Lord for a clear signal (a direct revelation) at the level of 100% certainty.

Two things to be emphasized in favor of my view.
(A) Since there are 100 billion souls at stake, I need to be 100% certain whether 1 or 2 is the correct approach. Problem is, I don't see any way to reach 100% certainty except by waiting upon the Lord for direct revelation. Thus I'm stuck with 2 by default.
(B) This approach of waiting upon the Lord has a strong biblical precedent in OT military strategy. Take for example the prophet David:

"David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go and smite these Philistines? And the LORD said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines…"

Would you slaughter the Philistine nation - or any nation - on less than 100% certainty? I hope not.

 

[JAL]

"You are the light of the world. …" is not an evangelistic statement?
"... let your light shine before others …" is not an evangelistic statement?

What specific city is that statement sending the apostles to, for evangelism? What specific message does it command them to preach? None. All it's doing is pointing out that as we become more holy, don't hide the Light. An example of this is peer pressure. The Light of the Lord might convict my conscience to oppose, for example, racism, but if I endorse it due to pressure from my peers, I've effectively hidden that light under a bushel.

If you want a clear paradigm for evangelism, you might want to take a look at the book of Acts, especially Pentecost because God was wise enough to early-on - at the very outset of the book - to establish the evangelistic schema for all future generations of believers.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ok so let's summarize:
(1) Your position: Just get out there and evangelize.
(2) My position: Wait upon the Lord for a clear signal (a direct revelation) at the level of 100% certainty.

Two things to be emphasized in favor of my view.
(A) Since there are 100 billion souls at stake, I need to be 100% certain whether 1 or 2 is the correct approach. Problem is, I don't see any way to reach 100% certainty except by waiting upon the Lord for direct revelation. Thus I'm stuck with 2 by default.
(B) This approach of waiting up the Lord has a strong biblical precedent in OT military strategy. Take for example the prophet David:

"David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go and smite these Philistines? And the LORD said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines…"

Would you slaughter the Philistine nation - or any nation - on less than 100% certainty? I hope not.

You seem to be subject to the paralysis of analysis.

You could sit in church and pray until you sweat blood and probably nothing will happen.

In the meantime God has placed each of us strategically in a sphere of influence of people we can reach. If your coworkers see you cheating your employer, that is counterproductive to world evangelism.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you want a clear paradigm for evangelism, you might want to take a look at the book of Acts, especially Pentecost because God was wise enough to early-on - at the very outset of the book - to establish the evangelistic schema for all future generations of believers.

That was never intended to be a model for evangelism. Is it pointed to as such in any other scripture?

 

[JAL]

If your coworkers see you cheating your employer, that is counterproductive to world evangelism.

Wow. More personal stabs to make up for a lack of supporting Scripture.

You seem to be subject to the paralysis of analysis.

That's not Scripture.

You could sit in church and pray until you sweat blood and probably nothing will happen.

More disparagement of prayer. More disparagement of what the disciples did until Pentecost. Nice.

 

[JAL]

That was never intended to be a model for evangelism. Is it pointed to as such in any other scripture?

Pentecost was NOT a model for evangelism? You must think God is an incompetent instructor. You're free to operate on that assumption. I beg to differ.

 

[JAL]

You haven't really supported the idea of prophetic evangelism. (whereas I have)

Um...I linked to two of my posts on that topic. Here they are again (see post 179 on another thread, and post 180).

 

[JAL]

You complained that you never got a response to this post:

I hope prophetic utterance includes prophetic listening.

Scripture seems to define prophetic ministry primarily in two dimensions:
(1) Hearing what God has to say.
(2) Relaying the message to His people.
If there's a third component entitled prophetic "listening", I don't see it clearly articulated in Scripture. Admittedly there are verses indicating the value of being a good listener. But prophetic ministry is not clearly defined in those terms. As an analogy, are the following two ministries clearly defined in terms of listening?
- "Those with miracles"
- "Those with gifts of healing"

I think you have a somewhat man-made definition of prophecy, perhaps due to the influence of the modern charismatic movement (e.g. Wayne Grudem), that doesn't square with the OT definition of a prophet. And personally I find that attempts to distinguish OT and NT prophets are forced, fabricated, and unconvincing.

 

[JAL]

Who was the premier evangelist during Christ's youth? Luke, who wrote the very handbook of evangelism (Acts), was also quick to point out that John the Baptist was a prophet in the magnitude of Elijah. Some scholars have called attention to the fact that he was essentially an OT prophet and yet the forerunner of NT evangelism. Another good example is the prophet Jonah evangelizing the Ninevites.

 

[topher694]

You baldly repudiate the Pentecost paradigm?

@Saint Steven, wait! You didnt tell us you were repudiation things whilst you had no hair. How dare you! Everyone knows you cannot argue a point with 0% hair, that is waaaay out of line! The Holy Spirit has long flowing locks of beautiful hair which when waved to and fro in the upper room created a rushing mighty wind. What have you got? Not hair apparently.

(don't get all worked up JAL, I'm just joking around)

 

[JAL]

@Saint Steven, wait! You didnt tell us you were repudiation things whilst you had no hair. How dare you! Everyone knows you cannot argue a point with 0% hair, that is waaaay out of line! The Holy Spirit has long flowing locks of beautiful hair which when waved to and fro in the upper room created a rushing mighty wind. What have you got? Not hair apparently.

(don't get all worked up JAL, I'm just joking around)

I don't get the joke.

 

[topher694]

Bullying:

You seem to find humor in rejecting the biblical paradigms.

Wow. You seem to have little or no confidence in the potential of prayer. This flies in the face of so much Scripture it's not even funny.

I don't understand why you would be so quick to disparage Christ's teaching.

You must think God is an incompetent instructor.

 

[Saint Steven]

Wow. More personal stabs to make up for a lack of supporting Scripture.

That's only a personal jab if you admitting to "cheating your employer". Is that what your are doing? Do you need me to supply supporting scripture on that issue?

Saint Steven said: ↑
If your coworkers see you cheating your employer, that is counterproductive to world evangelism.

 

[Saint Steven]

You complained that you never got a response to this post:

Scripture seems to define prophetic ministry primarily in two dimensions:
(1) Hearing what God has to say.
(2) Relaying the message to His people.
If there's a third component entitled prophetic "listening", I don't see it clearly articulated in Scripture. Admittedly there are verses indicating the value of being a good listener. But prophetic ministry is not clearly defined in those terms. As an analogy, are the following two ministries clearly defined in terms of listening?
- "Those with miracles"
- "Those with gifts of healing"

I think you have a somewhat man-made definition of prophecy, perhaps due to the influence of the modern charismatic movement (e.g. Wayne Grudem), that doesn't square with the OT definition of a prophet. And personally I find that attempts to distinguish OT and NT prophets are forced, fabricated, and unconvincing.

I meant in reference to the topic, which is encouraging us to listen to those we are evangelizing.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I hope prophetic utterance includes prophetic listening.

 

[Saint Steven]

… I think you have a somewhat man-made definition of prophecy...

This was the definition I gave. Man-made?
​

1 Corinthians 14:3-4
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

[JAL]

That's only a personal jab if you admitting to "cheating your employer". Is that what your are doing? Do you need me to supply supporting scripture on that issue?

Saint Steven said: ↑
If your coworkers see you cheating your employer, that is counterproductive to world evangelism.

It's a personal jab because yesterday you DECIDED that I was cheating on my employer.

 

[JAL]

This was the definition I gave. Man-made?
​

1 Corinthians 14:3-4
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

That's not your entire definition and certainly not what I was objecting to. I was referring to things like:
(1) 80-20 rule
(2) "Get out there and do it" mentality
(3) Fallible prophecy articulated at less than 100% certainty (hit or miss kind of stuff).
(4) "Prophetic Listening"
and so on.

These seem to be man-made embellishments of the biblical definition.