The Problem With Evangelism

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven, wait! You didnt tell us you were repudiation things whilst you had no hair. How dare you! Everyone knows you cannot argue a point with 0% hair, that is waaaay out of line! The Holy Spirit has long flowing locks of beautiful hair which when waved to and fro in the upper room created a rushing mighty wind. What have you got? Not hair apparently.

(don't get all worked up JAL, I'm just joking around)

That's funny.
Reminded me of this scripture. Never mess with a bald prophet.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's a personal jab because yesterday you DECIDED that I was cheating on my employer.

You posting to the forum while at work. How is that not cheating your employer?
Why were you writing as fast as you could?

JAL said: ↑
Changing the fact that you misunderstood? I can't help that.

I'm at work writing as fast I can. I'm not always clear but I try to clarify when asked.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's not your entire definition and certainly not what I was objecting to. I was referring to things like:
(1) 80-20 rule
(2) "Get out there and do it" mentality
(3) Fallible prophecy articulated at less than 100% certainty (hit or miss kind of stuff).
(4) "Prophetic Listening"
and so on.

These seem to be man-made embellishments of the biblical definition.

1) Not my rule.
2) That's biblical.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
3) That's reality. No one is 100 percent. Not even the Bible prophets.
4) Ties into the topic. Do you thing bull dozer evangelism is biblical?

Saint Steven said: ↑
This was the definition I gave. Man-made?
1 Corinthians 14:3-4
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

[JAL]

You posting to the forum while at work. How is that not cheating your employer?
Why were you writing as fast as you could?

JAL said: ↑
Changing the fact that you misunderstood? I can't help that.

I'm at work writing as fast I can. I'm not always clear but I try to clarify when asked.

I make up the time but prefer not to. Also I like to finish the post before the next interaction with my employer interrupts it. I don't like unfinished posts.

 

[JAL]

1) Not my rule.
2) That's biblical.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
3) That's reality. No one is 100 percent. Not even the Bible prophets.
4) Ties into the topic. Do you thing bull dozer evangelism is biblical?

Saint Steven said: ↑
This was the definition I gave. Man-made?
1 Corinthians 14:3-4
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Not your rule? Now you are back-pedaling. YOU pointed me, approvingly, to the 80-20 article and also recommended a Treasure Hunt, concepts that I do not clearly see articulated in Scripture.

"Prophetic Listening" ties into the topic? So anything goes, as long as it ties into the topic? Regardless of the lack of clear Scriptural basis.

Not 100%? So when Paul wrote Romans, it was impossible for him to be 100% accurate? The Spirit of God is INCAPABLE of reliable messaging?

 

[JAL]

Saint Steven,

Here's my concern. As the backdrop, I remind you again of the OT military paradigm of waiting for clear signals from heaven before marching (see Num 9:15-23). My concern is that the church, for the last 2,000 years, has mostly been working hard instead of working smart. Yes it's true that the "Get out there and do it" mentality seems to instantly yield small bits of immediate fruit. But at what cost? If we have deviated from the biblical paradigm - and I think we have - we've likely forfeited most of the fruit, in the long run. Why is it taking us 2,000 years to finish a job that Paul had already half-completed in one lifetime? I firmly believe that we could have accomplished far more - with far less effort - if our approach were on-point and on-track. Just my opinion? Well, a little more than "just my opinion", because I've provided a plausible basis for my conclusions, on this thread.

 

[JAL]

And I haven't even discussed sanctification. I can demonstrate that sanctification is most plausibly defined as waiting upon the Lord for sanctifying outpourings, and thus converges perfectly with the task of waiting upon Him for direct revelations. In fact that convergence is precisely the point of the Galatian epistle - it is precisely what the Galatians had overlooked, as Andrew Murray saw so clearly.

 

[nolidad]

Incorrect. See my post #10. The Great Commission was actually the Great Omission. Neither Christ nor the epistles commanded the churches to preach the gospel to the world. Rather:
(1) Christ issued this command to His appointed prophets (the Twelve).
(2) Paul issued this command to a prophet named Timothy.

So what was Paul's command to the churches? Naturally he told them to seek prophethood above all other gifts (1Cor 14:1).

Ordinary "evangelism" is many orders of magnitude less effective than real evangelism (prophecy). This is how Paul spread the gospel halfway around the planet in one short lifetime. Two thousand years later, we still can't seem to finish the job !!!!

Well Evangelism is simply spreading news!

1. Timothy was a bishop/episkipos/shepherd/pastor of the church. But if by prophet you mean a forth teller instead of a foreteller of the Word I agree.

But Paul also commanded Timothy to teach faithful men who would also teach others.

It is sad if you do not share the gospel with the lost and dying people God has placed in your life!

 

[JAL]

Well Evangelism is simply spreading news!

1. Timothy was a bishop/episkipos/shepherd/pastor of the church. But if by prophet you mean a forth teller instead of a foreteller of the Word I agree.

But Paul also commanded Timothy to teach faithful men who would also teach others.

It is sad if you do not share the gospel with the lost and dying people God has placed in your life!

The Timothy epistles are addressed to Timothy as a "man of God" which is an OT rubric for a prophet. As a result, we have to be cautious when determining how much of it applies to those of us who are not yet prophets.

 

[topher694]

That's funny.
Reminded me of this scripture. Never mess with a bald prophet.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

Brilliant!

 

[nolidad]

That's interesting. Could you explain the practical how-to aspects of this prophetic evangelism. I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure. Thanks.

One should be enough!

1 Corinthians 11:1-2
1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Philippians 4:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.


sharing the gospel with th elost and dying world God has put you in the midst of is one of those things.

 

[nolidad]

The Timothy epistles are addressed to Timothy as a "man of God" which is an OT rubric for a prophet. As a result, we have to be cautious when determining how much of it applies to those of us who are not yet prophets.

Now just prove that your "rubric" holds true in all cases and is carried over in the new!

So you believe the average church going Christian should not share their faith with people or evangelize or be a witness?

I guess the samaritan woman at the well sinned then according to you.

 

[JAL]

Now just prove that your "rubric" holds true in all cases and is carried over in the new!

So you believe the average church going Christian should not share their faith with people or evangelize or be a witness?

Ultimately conscience properly dictates all our actions. But my various posts on this thread attempt to be a corrective to any conscience confused about the biblical definition of evangelism-proper.

As I stated earlier, I see nothing wrong with man-made evangelism as a crutch (see post 87). Also if someone asks you a question about the faith, I think it's a good opportunity to respond. But we were created primarily to talk to the Lord. He wants to hear from us. That should be our chief priority.

I guess the samaritan woman at the well sinned then according to you.

Huh? Conversating with a stranger or a neighbor is a sin, in my view? That's an overstatement of my position. Again:
(1) Conscience dictates everything.
(2) Our flesh is weak. None of us is likely to pray 24-7. Diversions and recreations are thus a useful, nay, necessary, crutch.
(3) We are social animals. I'm not sure it's healthy to NEVER speak to those around us. Again, as conscience directs.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven,

Here's my concern. As the backdrop, I remind you again of the OT military paradigm of waiting for clear signals from heaven before marching (see Num 9:15-23). My concern is that the church, for the last 2,000 years, has mostly been working hard instead of working smart. Yes it's true that the "Get out there and do it" mentality seems to instantly yield small bits of immediate fruit. But at what cost? If we have deviated from the biblical paradigm - and I think we have - we've likely forfeited most of the fruit, in the long run. Why is it taking us 2,000 years to finish a job that Paul had already half-completed in one lifetime? I firmly believe that we could have accomplished far more - with far less effort - if our approach were on-point and on-track. Just my opinion? Well, a little more than "just my opinion", because I've provided a plausible basis for my conclusions, on this thread.

What you call "the biblical paradigm" is a figment of your imagination. (man-made)

 

[Saint Steven]

One should be enough!

1 Corinthians 11:1-2
1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Philippians 4:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.


sharing the gospel with th elost and dying world God has put you in the midst of is one of those things.

Thanks, but I asked about "prophetic" evangelism.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's interesting. Could you explain the practical how-to aspects of this prophetic evangelism. I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure. Thanks.

 

[JAL]

What you call "the biblical paradigm" is a figment of your imagination. (man-made)

Right. Num 9:15-23 is man-made. I made up the paradigm all in my head.

Would you seriously consider what happened on Pentecost? He told them to WAIT for power from on high. Wait for what ? For a clear signal from heaven. That's precisely the paradigm belabored at Num 9:15-23.

Without an impending confirmation from heaven, the whole concept of waiting makes zero sense.

 

[JAL]

Here it is again:

"31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly." (Acts 4)

That was an earthquake. A clear signal from heaven. It evidently left them feeling 100% certain that the charismatic power requested in prayer had now arrived. NOW was the time to go out and evangelize.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right. Num 9:15-23 is man-made. I made up the paradigm all in my head.

Would you seriously consider what happened on Pentecost? He told them to WAIT for power from on high. Wait for what ? For a clear signal from heaven. That's precisely the paradigm belabored at Num 9:15-23.

Without an impending confirmation from heaven, the whole concept of waiting makes zero sense.

The outpouring at Pentecost was a one-time event with enough power to see the whole job of world evangelism get done. As Jesus said, "... and to the ends of the earth."

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

[JAL]

What you call "the biblical paradigm" is a figment of your imagination. (man-made)

Earlier I linked you to two of my posts on prophetic evangelism (see post 179 on another thread, and post 180).

OT prophets didn't step out on blind faith, half-baked and half-cocked. They needed to be certain - 100% certain - of when to speak, what to speak, and where to speak.

To discredit my position, then, you'll need to disprove prophetic evangelism, starting with those two posts that I linked you to. Good luck with that endeavor.

 

[JAL]

The outpouring at Pentecost was a one-time event with enough power to see the whole job of world evangelism get done. As Jesus said, "... and to the ends of the earth."

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Already rebutted at post 94.