The Problem With Evangelism

[JAL]

Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

This confirms what I'm saying. That kind of promise was made to men that He had chosen to appoint as prophets. He can appoint anyone He wants. All we can do is wait on the Lord for such appointments:

"Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." (Mat 9)

Notice He didn't say,

"Everyone send yourselves out there by starting a treasure hunt"

 

[Saint Steven]

You baldly repudiate the Pentecost paradigm? As Andrew Murray mourned, this was the mistake of the Galatian church and virtually every congregation in church history.

Are you expecting lightning to strike in the same place twice?
Jesus told them to wait for the outpouring. Did Jesus tell you to wait for an outpouring?
The outpouring has already happened. Take what you have and get out in the marketplace. Reading books and posting on the forum is not evangelism. Go do it. You already have everything you need.

 

[Saint Steven]

This confirms what I'm saying. That kind of promise was made to men that He had chosen to appoint as prophets. He can appoint anyone He wants. All we can do is wait on the Lord for such appointments:

"Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." (Mat 9)

Notice He didn't say,

"Everyone send yourselves out there by starting a treasure hunt"

Really?
So, you want to sit inside the walls of the church and pray that God sends someone else? - lol

BTW: I'm pretty sure the 70 was everyone. Not a select group.

 

[JAL]

Are you expecting lightning to strike in the same place twice?
Jesus told them to wait for the outpouring. Did Jesus tell you to wait for an outpouring?

Really? You're seriously asking me that question? Waiting upon God in prayer is in fact the ONLY instruction given anywhere in the NT as to how receive outpourings - Pentecost was just an enaction of instructions previously given by Christ:

"How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13)

(1) He gave the instruction
(2) He showed us what it looks like
(3) He then showed it to us again and again, for example:

"After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly." (Acts 4:30-31).

You're saying they should NOT have waited in prayer for this outpouring? Just get out there and do it? And the same on Pentecost? What Bible are you reading?

 

[Saint Steven]

Notice He didn't say,

"Everyone send yourselves out there by starting a treasure hunt"

The Treasure Hunt is a simple tool that teaches you to flex your prophetic "muscles".
The real purpose is to teach you how to think and operate in a prophetic lifestyle. The end would meet what I understand to be your goal, prophetic evangelism. And I'll tell you how to do it for free. Are you afraid to talk to total strangers about Jesus?

 

[Saint Steven]

Really? You're seriously asking me that question? Waiting upon God in prayer is in fact the ONLY instruction given anywhere in the NT as to how receive outpourings - Pentecost was just an enaction of instructions previously given by Christ:

"How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13)

(1) He gave the instruction
(2) He showed us what it looks like
(3) He then showed it to us again and again, for example:

"After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly." (Acts 4:30-31).

You're saying they should NOT have waited in prayer for this outpouring? Just get out there and do it? And the same on Pentecost? What Bible are you reading?

So, what are you waiting for?
Do you just want to post on the forum about what you think everyone else should be doing? Get out there.

 

[JAL]

The Treasure Hunt is a simple tool that teaches you to flex your prophetic "muscles".
The real purpose is to teach you how to think and operate in a prophetic lifestyle. The end would meet what I understand to be your goal, prophetic evangelism. And I'll tell you how to do it for free. Are you afraid to talk to total strangers about Jesus?

Not really interested in what sounds like man-made concepts but maybe I'll have a brief look if you want to post it.

And frankly I'm not totally opposed to man-made religion - as long as we recognize it for what it is. For example, suppose I know myself well enough to anticipate that I will likely not be productive on a given Saturday. Instead of prayer and praise, I will likely sit around the house and do nothing. Well, in that case, it might be better for me to "get out there and do it" (as you advise) - as long as I don't mistake this for real evangelism. Man-made methods can be useful as a crutch, so long as we don't shove them down God's throat, masquerading them as authentic ministry.

 

[JAL]

So, what are you waiting for?
Do you just want to post on the forum about what you think everyone else should be doing? Get out there.

Um...Aren't you doing pretty much the same thing on this forum as I am?

 

[Saint Steven]

You're saying they should NOT have waited in prayer for this outpouring? Just get out there and do it? And the same on Pentecost? What Bible are you reading?

Have you not already received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Maybe that's your problem.

 

[JAL]

Have you not already received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Maybe that's your problem.

Personally I resent the popular usage of that term. "The" baptism? As if there is only one outpouring to be obtained? The verse LK 11:13...

"How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13)

...was articulated in the context of Christ teaching His disciples how to pray DAILY. Luke - the theologian of prayer - was the only writer to record that verse, and the only writer to record Pentecost, where he showed us what that looks like.

It's a man-made notion for Christians to limit their expectation to one baptism. I strongly advise you to read Gresham's book,
Charles G. Finney's Doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Finney claimed that his whole success was predicated upon receiving multiple baptisms of the Spirit, each one taking him to higher levels of both personal rest and public power.

 

[JAL]

And in fact such is the import of Galatians - multiple baptisms in the Spirit - although the church has completed overlooked this fact.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really interested in what sounds like man-made concepts but maybe I'll have a brief look if you want to post it.

I found this article about it online. Christian Growth Network : Spiritual Treasure Hunts - Evangelism by God's Love
If you will read it (read time approx 5-7 minutes), I will tell you about my own experience.

 

[Saint Steven]

Personally I resent the popular usage of that term. "The" baptism? As if there is only one outpouring to be obtained? The verse LK 11:13...

"How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13)

...was articulated in the context of Christ teaching His disciples how to pray DAILY. Luke - the theologian of prayer - was the only writer to record that verse, and the only writer to record Pentecost, where he showed us what that looks like.

It's a man-made notion for Christians to limit their expectation to one baptism. I strongly advise you to read Gresham's book,
Charles G. Finney's Doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Finney claimed that his whole success was predicated upon receiving multiple baptisms of the Spirit, each one taking him to higher levels of both personal rest and public power.

You didn't answer my question. But to accommodate you...
Have you received the first of many baptisms with the Holy Spirit?
(now I suppose you will complain about the word "with")

Saint Steven said: ↑
Have you not already received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Maybe that's your problem.

 

[JAL]

Are you expecting lightning to strike in the same place twice?
Jesus told them to wait for the outpouring. Did Jesus tell you to wait for an outpouring?
The outpouring has already happened.

Two opposing opinions on Pentecost:
(1) It was a once-for-all (dispensational) outpouring upon the church, never to be repeated.
(2) It was a repeatable outpouring.

Obviously I vote for #2. A couple of problems with #1:
(1) The outpouring was clearly upon 120 people. It was clearly NOT upon the whole church.
(2) The notion of a single outpouring covering the whole church doesn't make sense because, after all, you and I weren't even born yet, so how could it have been and outpouring upon us?
(3) We have texts strongly suggesting subsequent outpourings, the clearest of these being Acts 11. When the Spirit fell upon the Caesareans, Pete described it as a repitition of Pentecost:

"15“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. "

Pentecost wasn't a singularity. It was merely exemplary.

 

[Saint Steven]

Um...Aren't you doing pretty much the same thing on this forum as I am?

No. I am most certainly not doing what you are doing.
I'm not the one claiming that the world will not be evangelized until the church follows my instructions.

 

[Saint Steven]

Two opposing opinions on Pentecost:
(1) It was a once-for-all (dispensational) outpouring upon the church, never to be repeated.
(2) It was a repeatable outpouring.

Obviously I vote for #2. A couple of problems with #1:
(1) The outpouring was clearly upon 120 people. It was clearly NOT upon the whole church.
(2) The notion of a single outpouring covering the whole church doesn't make sense because, after all, you and I weren't even born yet, so how could it have been and outpouring upon us?
(3) We have texts strongly suggesting subsequent outpourings, the clearest of these being Acts 11. When the Spirit fell upon the Caesareans, Pete described it as a repitition of Pentecost:

"15“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. "

Pentecost wasn't a singularity. It was merely exemplary.

That's wonderful. Tell me about your experience with it.

 

[JAL]

You didn't answer my question. But to accommodate you...
Have you received the first of many baptisms with the Holy Spirit?
(now I suppose you will complain about the word "with")

Saint Steven said: ↑
Have you not already received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Maybe that's your problem.

I believe there are two kinds of baptisms:
(1) Sanctification
(2) Charismatic empowerment
Sanctification is incremental. Thus each sanctifying baptism/outpouring makes us more holy.

Charismatic empowerment is more aptly described as repetitive rather than incremental. Thus for example the Spirit re-fell upon Samson every time he needed strength. This has to do with the dynamics of efficacious grace as described in Isa 55:11. Meaning, the divine Word doesn't reside dormant within us. He always accomplishes what He has sent for and then RETURNS TO GOD. Thus without repetition, you are effectively an unempowered Christian. (Imagine a prophet who prophesies only once and then never again).

Why doesn't a sanctifying anointing return to God? Because there's never a moment that we can properly walk with God in the absence of sanctifying grace.

To answer your question, I have experienced type #1 several times - in small dosages. (I've never lived through a real revival of seismic proportions). I've never experienced #2.

I personally believe that the outpouring on Pentecost was a mixture of 1 and 2.

 

[JAL]

No. I am most certainly not doing what you are doing.
I'm not the one claiming that the world will not be evangelized until the church follows my instructions.

You are giving your understanding of the Bible's instructions. So am I.

 

[Ayenew]

What do you think?

The Confessions of a Recovering Evangelist

Good advice, but it also applies for the very site Christianity Today. They want this principle as they are sometimes speaking without first listening.

One example: they are boosting in spreading the "Great Commission" by converting decent Orthodox Christians and by even not acknowledging the Orthodox Church in Ethiopia.

Is the World’s Next Missions Movement in Ethiopia?

 

[JAL]

No. I am most certainly not doing what you are doing.
I'm not the one claiming that the world will not be evangelized until the church follows my instructions.

Actually you're making the same claim. You have in your own mind a definition of evangelism and you too would claim that the world won't be evangelized without conformity to it.