The Problem With Evangelism

[JAL]

How about because knowing how Charles Finney and Yonggi Cho operate, neither would advocate the model you are proposing. You have twisted their words and ministries to fit your narrative.

I don't think so. When Charles Finney describes his state of faith even during his conversion, he describes it in terms of an assurance at the level of incontrovertibility, he says it was literally impossible for him to doubt his salvation. THAT's how he defines assurance from the Lord. He then describes his ministry in similar terms. In a given town, he said, he would pray and wait for the assurance of victory, and only THEN he would preach.

Similarly, Yonggi Cho said that for every major church decision, he and a special team of intercessors would pray and fast until they all got the full assurance (I read this as 100% certainty) as to what direction to take.

I don't think I've twisted their experience at all.

 

[JAL]

Sure, if I am 100% certain that you are in the right.

You regularly insult and denounce my position and then balk when I object to yours. This is a constant pattern with you.

 

[topher694]

You're creating strawmen. There may be times when God wants you to witness to a Pharisee or a King, even if he knows in advance that neither will repent. That fact doesn't exempt you from the obligation to seek 100% certainty as to His will. With 100 billion souls at stake, we cannot afford to play guessing games. It's too risky.

So, before you can witness to someone you have to be 100% certain that they are going to receive it, or 100% certain that they are not, but God wants you to do it anyway... You have any idea how nonsensical and silly that sounds? But, whatever, if this a strawman, then it's not my strawman, it's Jesus' strawman. He's the one that sent out the 70 without any assurance of 100% certainty for us to read about.

 

[JAL]

Truly, you should just stop posting and responding until you are 100% certain. What you are engaging in here could be considered a form of evangelism, or at least considered attempting to teach evangelism, and if you are attempting to do those things without 100% certainty, well... I don't have to tell you what the consequences of that are do I? At the very least it is hypocrisy, but if we were to follow the letter of scripture as you have suggested... look out.

This is not evangelism, certainly not by my definition. Now, if I spoke with 100% certainty, perhaps it might be called genuine evangelism.

 

[topher694]

You regularly insult and denounce my position and then balk when I object to yours. This is a constant pattern with you.

You regularly play the victim when someone actually calls you out for poor behavior. This is a constant pattern with you.

 

[JAL]

So, before you can witness to someone you have to be 100% certain that they are going to receive it.

Um...that's not what I said.

 

[JAL]

What I said is that evangelism is prophetic ministry, and a prophet speaks out of 100% certainty, regardless of whether the people will repent.

 

[JAL]

You regularly play the victim when someone actually calls you out for poor behavior. This is a constant pattern with you.

Ok fine. You always try to turn debates into a personal battle. Can we get back to theology please?

 

[JAL]

Are you 100% certain about this?
If I have come to a different conclusion, is your conclusion truly, then, unavoidable?
Are you 100% certain the divine Voice told you this?

I'm not yet 100% certain of anything. Thought I was clear on that. See my signature.

 

[JAL]

Are you 100% certain about this?
If I have come to a different conclusion, is your conclusion truly, then, unavoidable?

You're free to argue differently about Abraham. Recall that Hebrews 11 celebrated his attempted slaughter. So I simply ask you, would you celebrate a man's attempted slaughter of his son if it were based on hearing a voice that he did not even feel fully certain about?

The reality is that you have no rebuttal for my Abrahamic argument - or for the numerous similar incidents in Scripture, for example when Moses and Joshua went forth to slaughter seven nations. Or for example when the prophet Samuel inisisted on the death of all the Amalekites.

Yes, the reality of 100% certainty seems to be an unavoidable conclusion. To suggest otherwise slanders God. Why so? We all know that military leaders can be corrupt. This means a soldier has to entertain the possibility of disobedience (to Hitler for example). Consider the solider who dropped a bomb on Hiroshima, killing 200,000 people. If you say that God is NOT committed to giving us 100% certainty, you're slandering Him - you're implying He doesn't much care whether those 200,000 people live or die.

 

[topher694]

Ok fine. You always try to turn debates into a personal battle. Can we get back to theology please?

Alright, I'm tired of this, and it's late so I'll leave with this:

I am sorry if I offended you or crossed a line. I've already stated my reasons for being passionate about this.

Here is something I hope you take some time and actually consider. I do not think that Abraham was operating in with 100% certainty when he offered his son as a sacrifice. I don't think that is what great faith is. 100% certainty removes the need for faith. I think the reason Abraham is considered to have great faith is because he acted in faith IN SPITE of his great uncertainty. That's why it is impossible to please God without faith. Faith is when we are uncertain, but we put our trust in Him anyway and watch Him provide. That is also something people can aspire to, be inspired by, and will draw people to God, not away.

That is clearly a different understanding than you put forth, but it IS an understanding. Suggesting otherwise is why I use the term bullying.

Even as I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that perhaps the biggest issue here is we both mean different things when we say 100% certainty.

 

[JAL]

Alright, I'm tired of this, and it's late so I'll leave with this:

I am sorry if I offended you or crossed a line. I've already stated my reasons for being passionate about this.

Here is something I hope you take some time and actually consider. I do not think that Abraham was operating in with 100% certainty when he offered his son as a sacrifice. I don't think that is what great faith is. 100% certainty removes the need for faith. I think the reason Abraham is considered to have great faith is because he acted in faith IN SPITE of his great uncertainty. That's why it is impossible to please God without faith. Faith is when we are uncertain, but we put our trust in Him anyway and watch Him provide. That is also something people can aspire to, be inspired by, and will draw people to God, not away.

I realize that's the popular understanding of faith. But for reasons stated, a reevaluation of that traditional view seems long overdue.

 

[JAL]

That same chapter, Hebrews 11, says that these men "conquered kingdoms" by faith. What kind of faith? Less than 100% certainty? Would you go out - imperialistically - and slaughter a nation on less than 100% certainty? I hope not.

 

[topher694]

Goodnight

 

[Saint Steven]

First of all, my "standard" is that the church should emphasize prayer and praise - waiting upon the Lord. What part of Moses' example do you not understand?

The church, the church, the church...
You should start by getting your own house in order.
Moses had the burning bush experience before he was called to lead the Israelites.
If you want to do this, you should just do it. Don't wait for anyone else.

And it's not going to happen by sitting around at church waiting for the mighty wind and tongues of fire on top of your heads. Get out in the marketplace and do it. God will give you the words to say when you are there. In fact, if you are like me, you won't get a complete thing to say. What I usually get is, "Talk to that person." When I ask what I am supposed to say, I get silence. But I am obedient to God's voice in the situation. And when I open my mouth, his words come out in my "voice". That's how it works.

You should do a Treasure Hunt. (Kevin Dedmon - firestarters) All you need is a piece of paper and a pen. I'll tell you how if you are interested.

 

[JAL]

You might find this interesting. Kevin Dedmon Ministries - Firestarters

I think I smell fluff, honestly, although I'm not willing to pay their proposed $69 to find out for sure. This amount purchases a course where you can "learn" how to heal the sick, prophesy, and be a revivalist. When Jesus said,

"This kind cometh out not but by prayer and fasting,"

He didn't mean that the disciples lacked $69 to purchase a course. Similarly when the Psalmist said,

"6 Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?"

it wasn't for lack of an online course. Isaiah assured us that it is God's desire:

"to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

but he also told us HOW to get it:

"They that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint"

Let's go back to what the Psalmist said:

"6 Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?"

God cannot be coerced into revival. All we can do is wait upon the Lord. I don't know what that course is teaching, but if it is proposing some other "formula" for revival, it is likely in the wrong.

 

[JAL]

Here's a good revival verse from Isaiah:

"I have posted watchmen on your walls, Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the Lord, give yourselves no rest,
7and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth" (Isa 62).

 

[JAL]

Another good revival verse:

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land." (2 chron 7)

 

[JAL]

The church, the church, the church...
You should start by getting your own house in order.
Moses had the burning bush experience before he was called to lead the Israelites.
If you want to do this, you should just do it. Don't wait for anyone else.

And it's not going to happen by sitting around at church waiting for the mighty wind and tongues of fire on top of your heads.

You baldly repudiate the Pentecost paradigm? As Andrew Murray mourned, this was the mistake of the Galatian church and virtually every congregation in church history.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think I smell fluff, honestly, although I'm not willing to pay their proposed $69 to find out for sure. This amount purchases a course where you can "learn" how to heal the sick, prophesy, and be a revivalist. When Jesus said,

"This kind cometh out not but by prayer and fasting,"

He didn't mean that the disciples lacked $69 to purchase a course.

Fluff? Wow.
I'm not asking you to buy anything.
I am pointing you to a ministry and method that is field tested and works.
Did you view the testimonies?

I'll tell you how to do the Treasure Hunt for free. But I doubt that you would have the guts to do it. It requires a faith that steps out even when you don't have 100 percent certainty. Jesus told us how this works.

Mark 13:11
Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.