The Problem of Suffering

dickyh995

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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?
 

PrettyboyAndy

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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?


With these difficult questions, one must know know that God is perfect, and God is in control.

Be mindful that this lifetime is short and temporary, and not our final destination.

That being said, as difficult as this is, somehow God is glorified, and someone is becoming conformed to the image of Christ.

This world is fallen, we are all sinners with a sinful nature, this is not what God intended, but he did send His Son, to redeem the World, whosoever shall believe will not perish but have eternal life.

God can bring life even out of death
 
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dickyh995

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With these difficult questions, one must know know that God is perfect, and God is in control.

Be mindful that this lifetime is short and temporary, and not our final destination.

That being said, as difficult as this is, somehow God is glorified, and someone is becoming conformed to the image of Christ.

This world is fallen, we are all sinners with a sinful nature, this is not what God intended, but he did send His Son, to redeem the World, whosoever shall believe will not perish but have eternal life.

God can bring life even out of death
To me that still sounds like a contradiction. How can one accept that God is perfect when I see suffering that if he is what believers say he is can only have come from him. I can sometimes understand the idea of Christians around justice but when it is suffering through no fault of a particular person, such as the hundreds of thousands of children who die each year of parasites, malnutrition, neglect etc what kind of a benevolent God can watch this and do nothing, when he could put a stop to it.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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To me that still sounds like a contradiction. How can one accept that God is perfect when I see suffering that if he is what believers say he is can only have come from him. I can sometimes understand the idea of Christians around justice but when it is suffering through no fault of a particular person, such as the hundreds of thousands of children who die each year of parasites, malnutrition, neglect etc what kind of a benevolent God can watch this and do nothing, when he could put a stop to it.

Let me use my life as an example,

I was brought up in a very strict Armenian Orthodox family, my mother was very over protective, I was not allowed to hang out with friends unless they came over, I never was alone with a female either.

At the age of 18 my other passed away. I became a rebel, I partied, drank, smoked weed, took steroids, from approx. age of 21 - 25, I ruined my life, some of my sin, left scars on my body (not trying to go into detail), I then fell on my knees, and asked God to forgive me, and since then I changed my life around.

Had my mom not passed away, this might not have happened to me.

Soon after, my father got cancer, and was dyeing, I prayed and fasted 42 days, my father got saved. (When I say this, I mean he was angry with God, and turned around and fasted God for forgiveness and put his faith and trust in Him)
 
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brightlights

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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?

The Bible teaches that God causes suffering of all kinds. This suffering serves three main purposes:
  1. It expresses God's wrath toward sin and punishes sinners.
  2. It chastises sinners and goads them toward repentance.
  3. It refines the faith and character of those who are righteous in Christ.
So suffering is both part of God's goodness and his justice.
 
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Rajni

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Well, I'm theistic in my worldview, but I'm also highly unorthodox as well.

I loosely follow the pre-birth-planning model, though, just like any other model, it's mere speculation (though I find it the least depressing of any I'm aware of so far).

So, the best explanation I can see for any life path, while keeping the God-of-love-concept intact, is that some kind of agreement is made between Him and each individual soul prior to that individual coming down here. That would be why He doesn't intervene -- or at least doesn't intervene within the time-frame and / or manner that might be preferred by those on the outside looking in.

I don't even like considering it traditional karma, because people rarely remember their past life, so suffering in a current life explicitly for wrongs done in a past one really doesn't make much sense to me.

So I lean more towards it being some kind of pre-birth agreement or plan, and it could be something as simple as a soul just curious to know what a particular experience would be like, or wanting to experience the rush of relief when another steps in to save them from that situation and get them healed up and taken care of.

Again, it's all just speculation, but I find it the least despair-inducing.

-
 
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victorinus

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How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?
it is part of the test
-
our free will is being tested
-and-
an important part of the test is how we react to suffering
 
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dickyh995

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it is part of the test
-
our free will is being tested
-and-
an important part of the test is how we react to suffering
So...why the test? And why apply this test to innocent, suffering children? What reaction from these innocents would be appropriate to god? If this is all part of some grand plan, it's a pretty poor plan.
 
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dickyh995

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God cleaned things up once with the time of the flood, but man still went on to sin after that and formed the nations.
There are times when God just gives up a people to their reprobate mind. Nations suffer as do people individually sometimes. God told as to how His vengeance would be on certain types of nations. God lets people in the world know of suffering in their nation and others. It is up to us to also show that we care. What are we doing to ease suffering in the world and let people know about their need for the Saviour Jesus Christ?
Then God cannot be omnibenevolent. He just gives up on his creation?
 
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Greg J.

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If you intentionally drop a bowling ball on someone else's foot, who should be blamed: God for not freezing the ball in mid-air, or gravity for being an evil force for harm (which God is in control of)?

People like blaming God for all kinds of things when they should instead be looking in the mirror. Having the power to do certain things is separate from what the best thing to do is. The concept that if one has the power to do good he should do it doesn't take into account what is best. Just because I can afford a plane ticket to Africa doesn't mean I should fly a container of peanut butter over to one of the starving children. I can use my time and money for the benefit of many more than one person.

People that struggle with this question of why God allows suffering usually refuse to accept the idea that it is best to allow one person to starve to save 1000 other people, because they view it only as a power issue. The erroneous deduction is that because God has the power he has the moral obligation. Power does not impart responsibility. Being given authority imparts responsibility. Rejecting God rejects his authority, not only for ourselves, but for those God might otherwise affect through us.

Our freewill is defined by how God reacts to our choices. Like it or not, God is not going to do anything that makes our free will more impotent. Free will is one of the most God-like attributes he gave us, and IMO, the most important one except for self-awareness. That God allows suffering is necessary for us to still continue to have a God-nature and not become more like animals in our nature. If we do something which has the natural consequence of pain, it is best for who we are, our experience of reality, and our descendants that the pain come upon us. Remember that God did not design us to know the difference between good and evil? (The tree Adam was commanded not to eat from.) It is only through obeying God that we can come to know the difference.

God knows what all the consequences are of all actions for all people for all time. He does what is best for individuals, families, communities, and all mankind. Only he can resolve that into what actions are best.

There is also another issue, and that is simply, who is responsible for what? Why does anyone think God has any moral responsibility TO US? It is we who have a moral responsibility to him. It is only because of God's love that he has made promises to us, which he always keeps. (Be sure you understand the context of the promise—see Deuteronomy 28.)

Add to all that the fact that every time we sin we are shouting that we reject him and do not want him as our God in our lives. What we want is for him to serve us according to what we desire. We have all done far more than enough to deserve eternal condemnation, and that includes furthering instead of healing a sin-tainted environment which brings suffering to others. The question is not, what is the moral imperative by which he allows suffering, the question is, what is the moral imperative for him to do anything other than allow the natural consequences of actions?

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” (Romans 9:20, 1984 NIV)

Because those that have not yet come to believe in and accept God cannot choose to obey God (and will mercifully be judged accordingly, Romans 2:12), the blame for suffering in the world falls on those that claim to believe in God (2 Chronicles 7:14). (They are responsible to God, not the other people.)

Almost everyone's sense of justice is twisted. It is only when we have accepted the fact that God is always loving, kind, and generous that we can start to see the real causes of suffering—which are mostly because our selfish, arrogant ancestors cared more about their own short-term comfort than their descendants' long-term comfort.

Is your behavior in line with being part of the problem or part of the solution? Are you trying to be obedient to the God who wants to save us from everything bad, or are you rejecting the idea that you are not your own God? Even people that don't believe in God would agree they are frequently choosing not to do what they believe is best. God told us that we can't even keep our own moral standard (Romans 2:12 and others). (You can claim your moral standard is "I can do anything," but logic shoots that down, and your human nature/conscience/actions will prove it.)
 
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brightlights

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Then God cannot be omnibenevolent. He just gives up on his creation?

I'm not sure where the idea of God's universal omnibenevolence comes from. Certainly not from the Bible. Scripture teaches that God is "omnibenevolent" (depending on how this concept is understood) toward his chosen people, but he is certainly not omnibenevolent toward all - especially not toward sinners who have set themselves against God and neighbor.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?
I think you are conflating Theist with Christian. Not all Theists are Christian now are they? It may be difficult for some to understand how a loving God such as the God of Christianity could allow pain and suffering to exist. But it surely is not difficult to understand how a non christian god that was not considered loving to its followers could be totally unconcerned with the suffering of a particular human. Personally, I see no contradiction between the existence of temporary suffering and the existence of a loving god. I do not assume that love must be predicated upon ensuring a complete lack of pain, suffering, or difficulty of any kind for the one being loved. I do not see how that can be considered a logical necessity.
 
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Dave-W

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I'm not sure where the idea of God's universal omnibenevolence comes from. Certainly not from the Bible.
This thread is the first time I ever heard the term.

The Bible only supports 3 omnis:

* Gods omniscience - God is all-knowing
* Gods omnipresence - God is all-present/all-seeing
* Gods omnipotence - God is all-powerful
 
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dickyh995

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If you intentionally drop a bowling ball on someone else's foot, who should be blamed: God for not freezing the ball in mid-air, or gravity for being an evil force for harm (which God is in control of)?

Clearly whoever intentionally dropped the bowling ball. How does this relate? In my example of suffering innocents, if you believe in a creator God, the only agent in play is him.

People like blaming God for all kinds of things when they should instead be looking in the mirror. Having the power to do certain things is separate from what the best thing to do is. The concept that if one has the power to do good he should do it doesn't take into account what is best. Just because I can afford a plane ticket to Africa doesn't mean I should fly a container of peanut butter over to one of the starving children. I can use my time and money for the benefit of many more than one person.

Are you really suggesting that an omnipotent God allows this suffering because it's the best thing to do? Again, he's omnipotent right? He could stop innocent suffering at any time with a swipe of his magic finger and still apply justice where deserved.

People that struggle with this question of why God allows suffering usually refuse to accept the idea that it is best to allow one person to starve to save 1000 other people, because they view it only as a power issue. The erroneous deduction is that because God has the power he has the moral obligation. Power does not impart responsibility. Being given authority imparts responsibility. Rejecting God rejects his authority, not only for ourselves, but for those God might otherwise affect through us.

Again, he's God, why should any innocent starve? Please explain how hundreds of thousands of children dying each year in abject misery, through no fault of their own could be a benefit?

Our freewill is defined by how God reacts to our choices. Like it or not, God is not going to do anything that makes our free will more impotent. Free will is one of the most God-like attributes he gave us, and IMO, the most important one except for self-awareness. That God allows suffering is necessary for us to still continue to have a God-nature and not become more like animals in our nature. If we do something which has the natural consequence of pain, it is best for who we are, our experience of reality, and our descendants that the pain come upon us. Remember that God did not design us to know the difference between good and evil? (The tree Adam was commanded not to eat from.) It is only through obeying God that we can come to know the difference.

How do you know how god reacts to your choices? The rest of it I don't understand to be honest as there was no literal Adam or Eve. I find it rather insulting that you say only through obeying god can we know the difference between good and evil. Speak for yourself.

God knows what all the consequences are of all actions for all people for all time. He does what is best for individuals, families, communities, and all mankind. Only he can resolve that into what actions are best.

Really? Can you cite an example of this? Seems to me when I read the bible that god cares for a small group of people above all others. Who are his chosen people again? Doesn't sound like all of mankind to me. Also I feel you are proving my point. If god knows what's best for individuals, communities etc. and still allows awful suffering of individuals, families and communities then he cannot have the characteristics of omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.

There is also another issue, and that is simply, who is responsible for what? Why does anyone think God has any moral responsibility TO US? It is we who have a moral responsibility to him. It is only because of God's love that he has made promises to us, which he always keeps. (Be sure you understand the context of the promise—see Deuteronomy 28.)

If that's the god you worship, it's all yours. Still doesn't get closer to answering the question of suffering though.

Add to all that the fact that every time we sin we are shouting that we reject him and do not want him as our God in our lives. What we want is for him to serve us according to what we desire. We have all done far more than enough to deserve eternal condemnation, and that includes furthering instead of healing a sin-tainted environment which brings suffering to others. The question is not, what is the moral imperative by which he allows suffering, the question is, what is the moral imperative for him to do anything other than allow the natural consequences of actions?

Because he's supposed to be omnibenevolent so should care about innocent suffering and be able to stop it but doesn't.

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” (Romans 9:20, 1984 NIV)

Because those that have not yet come to believe in and accept God cannot choose to obey God (and will mercifully be judged accordingly, Romans 2:12), the blame for suffering in the world falls on those that claim to believe in God (2 Chronicles 7:14). (They are responsible to God, not the other people.)

Almost everyone's sense of justice is twisted. It is only when we have accepted the fact that God is always loving, kind, and generous that we can start to see the real causes of suffering—which are mostly because our selfish, arrogant ancestors cared more about their own short-term comfort than their descendants' long-term comfort.

Again, tell that to the dying kids. He could stop innocent death if he chose to right?

QUOTE]
 
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brightlights

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This thread is the first time I ever heard the term.

The Bible only supports 3 omnis:

* Gods omniscience - God is all-knowing
* Gods omnipresence - God is all-present/all-seeing
* Gods omnipotence - God is all-powerful

I'm open to the charge that God is good and that everything that he does is good. For instance, God always acts in love and justice in everything that he does.

But this does not mean that God always intends the best possible outcome for every individual. Indeed, God intends destruction for his enemies! So any notion of omnibenevolence that disregards God's judgement toward his enemies is unbiblical.
 
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Hmmm, I will happily stand corrected if you accept that the Christian view is that God is not all loving and all good?

God is not all loving and all good in the sense that you seem to mean.
 
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FireDragon76

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The answer is... I don't. The Bible doesn't present a systematic theodicy, and most Christian apologetics is misguided on this point.

I recently watched Silence, the Scorsese film based on the novel by Shusaku Endo. I think it really gets to the heart of things. The young priest Rodrigues, the protagonist in the story (loosely based on a real historical figure) is confronted with his theology of glory based on his own pride and triumphalism, even his own ability to be obedient to his religious sensibilities, and he must learn to find God in all the places he doesn't want to look.

What the Bible does say, is we find the true image of God in the face of Jesus, the suffering servant. He is our answer to the problem of suffering. God with us. God made vulnerable.
 
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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?

The problem is that you haven't defined a stopping point and you don't have a frame of reference. If God lined up all of the sources of suffering from least to greatest, and created a world where the greatest was no longer possible, then you could still ask the same question about why God didn't intervene for the 2nd greatest and so on until God made a world where the worst suffering imaginable was stubbing your toe, yet people would still ask why a loving God would allow even that much. So the issue is not about why God allows so much suffering, but rather it is about why God allows any suffering at all. In addition, you lack a frame of reference, so you can not say that God has not acted to prevent greater suffering from happening because you have no way of knowing about something that didn't happen.

Furthermore, if God created a world where it was only possible to experience lesser joy and greater joy, then people would still wonder why a loving God would allow anyone to have the lesser experience. Even more problematic is the issue of whether someone who only experienced the greatest joy could even recognize it for what it is worth because we understand things through contrasting them with each other. For example, if someone only experience one temperature, then they would have no concept of hot or cold. Likewise, we understand good and evil through contrasting them with each other, and the greater the contrast, the greater that our ability to can recognize, appreciate, and participate in good overcoming evil. If God were to do all the good available to do, then there would be no good available to us to do, so we would be deprived of the great privilege of doing good, and would quite literally be good for nothing. So the problem of suffering boils down to wonder why a loving God didn't create us in some sort of stasis field where we could have no change of experience when He wants a relationship with us, where He loves us, where we love Him and others, where we overcome evil with good.
 
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Greg J.

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But this does not mean that God always intends the best possible outcome for every individual. Indeed, God intends destruction for his enemies! So any notion of omnibenevolence that disregards God's judgement toward his enemies is unbiblical.
God never rejects anybody. It is they who reject him. When Scripture speaks of God rejecting someone, it is always speaking of a direct or indirect consequence of human-committed sin. He does not intend the destruction of his enemies. That is the result of their choices.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1984 NIV)

Everyone is born with their parent's human nature (which is sin-tainted and therefore God-rejecting) and are on their way to destruction. Typically, people want to be their own God—make their own choices about what is right and wrong, do what they think is right, etc. God wants to save everybody, but many people do not want to give him the moral authority to save them by yielding to his Lordship. They don't even want to believe him that they're already condemned. He lets such people receive the consequences of refusing to recognize the truth and turning to him to be saved (which is why God never overriding someone's free will is a hot topic).

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (Ezekiel 18:23, 1984 NIV)
 
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Greg J.

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I'm sure this has been done to death but I've never seen a satisfactory answer to the problem of suffering from a Theist.
To summarize, if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, when suffering occurs, for example a parasite that burrows into the eyes of small children causing insufferable pain and blindness, God must see this and either chooses to do nothing about it or is powerless to intervene. How do believers justify this suffering, particularly if you believe in the Abrahamic God and believe God cares and interferes with the goings on of humanity?
There have been a number of surprisingly good statements of the truth in this thread. It is clear that you do not want to believe in God, because you are rejecting every single argument, instead of asking questions of like one does when trying to believe them. You don't want to have anything to do with God. That's your choice. God made you so much like himself that you have the power to determine your own path. But by determining your own path, you are the one responsible for the consequences, not anyone else—certainly not God.
 
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