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The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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Ken-1122

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What behaviors by the Nazis and the Japanese were not evil? Yes, there is always some evil going on the earth. What are the many evil acts committed by the US during WWII?
My point is; we didn't fight them because they were evil, we fought them because they wanted to take over our country and we weren’t going to just let that happen.
So if you locked your wife in the basement and fed
So if you locked your wife in the basement and fed her dog food and raped her every night, you think she would still think you loved her?
Just because you love someone doesn't mean your actions towards that person will convince them that you love them. Again; loving someone does not mean you will treat them fairly

Yes, it does, read Jeremiah 22:13 among others.
Jeremiah 22:13 is not about owning another person (slavery) its about not paying someone who did work for you. Again; the bible doesn’t say slavery is wrong either
I didn't say that all Americans have always followed our ideals, but they are Christian principles and we have been striving to follow them ever since.
Those principles have been around long before Christianity. By definition they cannot be Christian principles. Just because people who just so happen to be Christian adhere to certain principles doesn’t make them Christian principles

No, the church leadership at the time had started placing the teachings of Aristotle above the Bible, Aristotle taught that the earth is the center of the universe, the Bible does not teach this.
Aristotle didn’t excommunicate Galileo, those of the Church did. It doesn’t matter what the Bible teaches, when powerful people representing Christianity begin sticking their noses in science, science suffered. Today that doesn’t happen; and we are better off because of it.
" And no we are not better off, leaving God out of science because without Him we dont have a rational basis for science as I demonstrated earlier in this thread.
You need to speak for yourself on that one. You may not have a rational basis for science without God, but we do.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Evolution is much more theoretical because it cannot be empirically observed in real time.

ken: Actually much of evolution can be observed in real time, especially with germs, bacteria, and insects.

Ok please provide an empirically observed example of bacteria evolving into a multicellular organism.

Yes it is, I provided an article from Natural History Magazine earlier stating that the majority of cosmologists believe that it was the beginning of everything. The singularity is just the point at which the big bang occurred.

Ed1wolf said:
And would show that the universe may be eternal.

ken: No; it just shows there was something before the Big Bang
Not if it was shown that the universe did not have an end in a heat death.

Ed1wolf said:
But the theory of evolution can not be falsified making it unscientific.

ken: What do you mean by that? Can the theory of Gravity be falsified?
The theory about what gravity IS can be, but not the law of gravity because it is a scientific fact and has been observed empirically in action over and over.

Name one.

Ed1wolf said:
I never said that. But Dawkins and many other atheists have said that.

ken: Oh so because he says it, that makes it so?
I have debated with many that agree with him. And he has many fans and followers. But I am not saying that someone cannot believe in both God and evolution.

An intelligent creator and a big bang.
 
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Ken-1122

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Ok please provide an empirically observed example of bacteria evolving into a multicellular organism.

Ever wonder why the flu vaccine is different every year? Because the germs evolve. If it weren’t for evolution the same flu vaccine would work year after year.
Any farmer will tell you how eventually insecticide will become useless in the battle of pests. This is because the pests evolve in a way rendering the pesticide useless so another type has to be used.
Below are more examples a simple google search will bring up.
https://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/
Yes it is, I provided an article from Natural History Magazine earlier stating that the majority of cosmologists believe that it was the beginning of everything. The singularity is just the point at which the big bang occurred.
Is there anything published for scrutiny via the peer review process about this? Is this established scientific theory? I think not. There are probably cosmologists who believe in God also; but this isn’t part of scientific research. Individual cosmologists believing this or that does’t mean it is accepted scientific theory.
The theory about what gravity IS can be, but not the law of gravity because it is a scientific fact and has been observed empirically in action over and over.
There is no scientific theory of what gravity IS, gravity is a scientific theory, and both gravity and evolution can be falsified. If (for example) there were fossils found in places inconsistent with evolutionary predictions; this would prove the theory false. But this hasn’t been found so the theory has not been proven false, even though it is falsifiable.
Name one.
Bill Gates, Morgan Freeman, Kathy Griffin.
I have debated with many that agree with him. And he has many fans and followers. But I am not saying that someone cannot believe in both God and evolution.
So what are you saying?
An intelligent creator and a big bang.
And how does this creator and big bang create space?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Ed1wolf

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Actually we do generally agree what would make the world a better place. And we do all recognize perfection in God, but we dont want to so we repress it and try to rationalize it away. We fear perfection because we know that we would be destroyed by it because of the many serious flaws we have.

Ed1wolf said:
Only made up fictional value. But God has created real objective value of certain things such as human beings.
ken: There is no such thing as fictional value; it either has value or it doesnt. Again; your argument fails.
Yes, there is fictional value. Addicted drug users believe that their drugs have real value and will do anything to get more drugs when they run out but many people find out over time that drugs eventually destroy their lives and they learn that actually they have no value.
 
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Ken-1122

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Actually we do generally agree what would make the world a better place.
The details of what will make this world a better place has never been agreed upon,
And we do all recognize perfection in God,
No; many see God as far from perfect
Just because something will eventually lead to destruction, doesn’t mean it has no immediate value to someone right now. To the drug addict, his drug of choice has immediate value right now even though it will eventually lead to his demise.
 
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Ed1wolf

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I take a value created/by real humans (and especially by me) over a value allgedely "made up" by a God whose existence hasn´t even been established, any day.
Humans cant create objective value for other humans. I have provided strong evidence for the Christian God earlier in this thread.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Actually we do generally agree what would make the world a better place.

ken: The details of what will make this world a better place has never been agreed upon,
Not the exact details, but the general ideas have been, most people want less murder, less theft, less hate, more freedom, and more love among other things.

Ed1wolf said:
And we do all recognize perfection in God,

ken: No; many see God as far from perfect
No, they are repressing the truth that deep down they know is true. Because they dont want such a God to exist. Our sinful nature causes us to be repulsed at a perfect God.

Even when he thinks it is immediately helping him it is actually destroying his brain cells and etc. True objective value is permanent. Subjective value may exist temporarily but ultimately it is fictional.
 
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Ken-1122

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Not the exact details, but the general ideas have been, most people want less murder, less theft, less hate, more freedom, and more love among other things.
Obviously people want good, they just can’t agree on what is good vs what is bad.

No, they are repressing the truth that deep down they know is true. Because they dont want such a God to exist. Our sinful nature causes us to be repulsed at a perfect God.
When you look at the actions of God, (like his treatment of Job, Adam and Eve, and many others) it’s obviously God is far from perfect.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Yes, most people want to live their lives according to what is right, but not just what some people think is right, what is REALLY right (at least what they think is really right). They want to live according to what is right for all people, ie objectively right. While most people dont think in the philosophical terms of objective and subjective, they do think in terms of what is real and what is not, and that is the same thing.

No, these were POWs in a legitimate war against an evil nation. But even so, nowhere does the passage say that they were raped. She can demonstrate to him by her own free will during this month long period that she is not compatible with him and be set free.
 
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Ken-1122

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People do want to live according to what is objectively right, problem is; nobody can agree on what is objectively right. The reason nobody agrees is because there is no such a things as objective right or wrong, it is all subjective. Nobody wants to admit or even believe it is all subjective, but the fact that nobody can prove an act is objectively right or wrong is an indication that morality is not subjective.

Nowhere does it say she is free to leave even if he wants her to stay. If he wants, he can force her to live with him, he can force her to marry him, and he can force her to have sex with him. This is RAPE!!! This is one of the reasons I got away from that religion; because I decided doing what’s right is more important than defending the home team.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Obviously the universe DOES support human life, we exist dont we? I didn't say He necessarily wanted us to colonize other planets, I only said that that may be necessary if we had never discovered birth control. But as I already explained, He gave us intelligent minds to overcome obstacles and the apparent difficulties to colonize other planets would cause our minds to be challenged to overcome them.

Ed1wolf said:
Yes, it is by implication.

ken: Does the bible also imply they eventually would have left the Garden had they never sinned?
Yes, so they could study all the animals that they had named and classified.
 
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Ken-1122

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Obviously the universe DOES support human life, we exist dont we?
Only within the atmosphere of Earth. Outside of that the Universe does not support human life

Okay; so they weren't "awake" enough to notice they had no clothes on, but they were supposed to some how become so insightful as to learn to colonize other planets? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

Yes, so they could study all the animals that they had named and classified.
Which scriptures say that?
 
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Ed1wolf

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It was better than doing nothing. If someone was raping your wife and I gave you a gun to either threaten the rapist or kill him. Wouldn't that be better than if I just stood there and did nothing?

I never said that Christians have always lived up to Christ's moral teachings, at least they have that objective moral goal to strive for unlike atheists who have no objective moral goals to strive for. And striving for those goals have produced great good for blacks. The end of slavery and civil rights equal to whites. I already told you what scriptures teach that. Besides the fact that since all humans are created in the image of the King and Creator of the universe by definition makes them deserving of freedom and respect, there is also the Golden rules as I stated above and that we are even commanded to love our enemies. So we are commanded to even treat our enemies as deserving freedom and respect.
 
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Ken-1122

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It was better than doing nothing. If someone was raping your wife and I gave you a gun to either threaten the rapist or kill him. Wouldn't that be better than if I just stood there and did nothing?
Oh so you are changing it now. Before you said helping by supplying was equal to fighting directly. Now after being proven wrong, you are changing it to "helping is better than nothing at all."

I never said that Christians have always lived up to Christ's moral teachings, at least they have that objective moral goal to strive for unlike atheists who have no objective moral goals to strive for.
So what's your point? Yeah Christians have a book that they constantly ignore because it tells them to do good when they choose to do wrong. Atheists have no such book thus nothing to ignore. At the end of the day, your behavior is no better than mine.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Some people did change their minds over time but no not the majority, but most of their 21st century descendants now know it is wrong. You were the one that said that some believed that blacks should be enslaved in order to save them for heaven. The ones that believed that were trying to justify the means by the ends.

Yes, but it proves the government believes that it is related to the law, IOW it is the philosophical justification for our laws. It explains where the rights enumerated in the Constitution come from. It was a Declaration to the king of the philosophical basis of our founding.

As I explained earlier the Bible does not teach that the sun circles the earth, that was Aristotelian Roman Catholic cosmology not orthodox Christian cosmology. So far no empirical scientific facts have ever contradicted actual Biblical teaching, just a few scientific THEORIES have.
 
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