The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

Strathos said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Well explain it to me. I am all ears.

st: Accepting the facts of a scientific description of reality does not imply any kind of philosophical or ethical stance. .

Click to expand...

I am not sure it is an actual scientific description of reality, since it has never been empirically observed. It is better understood as a theoretical scientific description of ONE aspect of reality, ie the origin and diversity of living things. And in a way, it does point to a philosophical stance, real science is only possible in a universe created by a God very similar if not identical to the Christian God.

Ed1wolf said:

I am not sure it is an actual scientific description of reality, since it has never been empirically observed.

Click to expand...

Sure it has, unless you keep moving the goalposts.

It is better understood as a theoretical scientific description of ONE aspect of reality, ie the origin and diversity of living things. And in a way, it does point to a philosophical stance, real science is only possible in a universe created by a God very similar if not identical to the Christian God.

Click to expand...

Why can't God use evolution as one of His tools?

Strathos said:

Sure it has, unless you keep moving the goalposts.



Why can't God use evolution as one of His tools?

Click to expand...

Evolution is a very slow and painful way to do things, why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something.

A good starting point for everyone is to learn who God is and what He can do, one you learn that it will answer every question you ever had. True believers have no questions about anything, God has revealed the secrets of the universe to us.

God knows the number of hairs on every head in the world, He knows ever star by name. Don't forget He has always existed, He never had a begging and He will never have an end. We liken that to the fact that the universe doesn't have a beginning or end.

Dan1988 said:

Evolution is a very slow and painful way to do things, why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something....

Click to expand...

Should we expect all God's reasons to seem reasonable to us? Or even intelligible?

Dan1988 said:

Evolution is a very slow and painful way to do things, why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something.

Click to expand...

Why would a god outside of time perceive millions of years as anything other than an instant?

Dan1988 said:

Evolution is a very slow and painful way to do things, why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something.

Click to expand...

Why not? A day to God is like a thousand years to us, after all. He doesn't operate on the same timescales we do.

durangodawood said:

Should we expect all God's reasons to seem reasonable to us? Or even intelligible?

Click to expand...

Of' course not, we need to remember who we are and who God is. We are finite, fallen, sinful, totally depraved wicked creatures. God is infinitely wise, infinitely powerful, He is unlimited in all of His attributes.

God knows all of human history from start to finish as if it had already played out, He knows every single person in every detail. He knows exactly what you will do before you do it.

We cannot understand His ways because they are infinitely, above our ability to comprehend. So we should just allow God to be God and remember who we are.

Dan1988 said:

Evolution is a very slow and painful way to do things, why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something.

A good starting point for everyone is to learn who God is and what He can do, one you learn that it will answer every question you ever had. True believers have no questions about anything, God has revealed the secrets of the universe to us.

God knows the number of hairs on every head in the world, He knows ever star by name. Don't forget He has always existed, He never had a begging and He will never have an end. We liken that to the fact that the universe doesn't have a beginning or end.

Click to expand...

Cool! So what is the answer to the homological conjecture?

Dan1988 said:

Of' course not, we need to remember who we are and who God is. We are finite, fallen, sinful, totally depraved wicked creatures. God is infinitely wise, infinitely powerful, He is unlimited in all of His attributes.

God knows all of human history from start to finish as if it had already played out, He knows every single person in every detail. He knows exactly what you will do before you do it.

We cannot understand His ways because they are infinitely, above our ability to comprehend. So we should just allow God to be God and remember who we are.

Click to expand...

Right.

But they why do you say "why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something."?

I mean, it sounds like youre saying "if I were God I would do it X way and not Y."

Belk said:

Cool! So what is the answer to the homological conjecture?

Click to expand...

The answer to the homological conjecture is that it's a fundamentally flawed, pathetic attempt by reprobate creatures to understand what God preordained and set in place. They are trying to make sense of it and understand it but they never will, it is domed to remain a fundamentally flawed theory. They have no answers to anything, all they can offer is dumb theories which keep changing every day.

durangodawood said:

Right.

But they why do you say "why would an almighty god who can speak anything into existence in a moment take millions of years to do something."?

I mean, it sounds like youre saying "if I were God I would do it X way and not Y."

Click to expand...

It may sound like I'm speaking on God's behalf, that may be because I know Him. He has revealed the truth to me, He has told me everything I need to know about Him.

God told us exactly how He created the stars, planets, mankind, Angels, Demons and Animals. So we are not in the dark, God has illuminated us with the truth. When you learn the truth, it exposes every false doctrine and claim.

God has told us exactly how the whole history of mankind will play out, God preordained the whole of human history from the begging to the end. So we know exactly how this world will end and where everyone will spend eternity.

Everyone who was created will remain alive forever, everyone will be reunited with our eternal bodies on judgement day. God will reunite the soul with our dead bodies and we will be sent to our eternal abode. God said that many will be cast into hell to be tormented in flames for all eternity and the rest will go to paradise for eternity.

If you don't take God's warning seriously now, you will spend eternity regretting your decision to reject His Son's free offer of salvation. You will wish to be annihilated, but that will not be an option. You will be trapped in your body of torment forever.

So you should repent now and ask Jesus to save you from the penalty your sins deserve. The free offer of eternal paradise is only valid during this life, but as soon as you die you will open your eyes to find yourself standing before God to give account of your life. If you have broken His commandments and you haven't trusted in Jesus to pay for your sins, then God will cast you into hell.

Dan1988 said:

It may sound like I'm speaking on God's behalf, that may be because I know Him. He has revealed the truth to me, He has told me everything I need to know about Him.

Click to expand...

Be that as it may - when you asked "Why would God...?" you were appealing to common sense (as though you considered it relevant), not to your alleged special knowledge.

Dan1988 said:

The answer to the homological conjecture is that it's a fundamentally flawed, pathetic attempt by reprobate creatures to understand what God preordained and set in place. They are trying to make sense of it and understand it but they never will, it is domed to remain a fundamentally flawed theory. They have no answers to anything, all they can offer is dumb theories which keep changing every day.

Click to expand...

It's math, not a theory. Perhaps you should consider how the fact that you can not support your fantastic claims reflect upon your witness?

Eight Foot Manchild said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
It does point to the universe coming from nothing physical because if you run the BB backwards you come to a point with no dimensions, ie nothing.

efm: Nope. You come to a point - ten to the minus 43 seconds - with a singularity. A singularity is not 'nothing'.

Click to expand...

Just prior to the singularity, there is nothing detectable.

efm: No one knows further than that. Not you. Not me. Not the most brilliant minds in astrophysics. Absolutely not William Lane Craig. And whereof one does not know, one must remain silent (but keep searching).

Click to expand...

No, you dont need to remain silent. You can logically say that there is a Cause since the universe has all the characteristics of an effect. While we dont know for certain, we know as much as we know anything else in this universe. You know as much about a chair that you are getting ready to sit in, prior to sitting in it, whether you think it will hold your weight. And we can also keep searching to discover how the Cause did it.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
True no one knows for sure, but we can come to a rational conclusion by using the law of causality. Just take one logical step backwards.

efm: There is no such law in physics. Causality is a fundamental subject of physics, but it is not a 'law' like the Laws of Thermodynamics, Boyle's Law, etc.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it was a law of physics, it is a law of logic. It is logical reasoning. Without which science is impossible and we never could have discovered those laws you mention.

efm: Also, creation ex nihilo is not a necessary conclusion of taking 'a logical step backwards'. Ex materia is more logical, because it at least has precedent.

Click to expand...

See above how the evidence says otherwise. Almost all physicists agree that matter came into existence at the Big bang, not from other matter. Read the Nov. 2007 issue of Natural History article by Dr. Donald Goldsmith.

efm: Or they could both be wrong, and it could have been something we are currently incapable of even imagining. Who knows?

Literally no one, that's who.

Click to expand...

I dont deny we COULD be wrong but so far all the evidence points in that direction and it is increasing every month.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Job 9:8, Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, Zechariah 12:1 and many other verses.

efm: I knew these were coming. These verses refer to the 'stretching' of the sky like a canopy over the Earth, which was a very common belief in ancient times. The same description is in the Quran.

It's wrong, of course. The sky is not a canopy. The universe is not a canopy. This is not at all an accurate description of a continually expanding universe.

Click to expand...

The Hebrew term translated stretching in these verses actually means "an ongoing continuous stretching". The universe appears to be a canopy to an ancient Hebrew, but he never knew that it could stretch continuously until this was confirmed by modern science. Also, a tent or canopy is a flat surface with no physical center, just like the universe. And yet God had this information in there all along. You do know that the writer of the Koran "borrowed" many concepts from the Bible, dont you?

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Romans 8:20-22.
This says nothing at all about a universe that is winding down. I fail to see how you could get there even with a very lenient, very poetic reading.

Click to expand...

The greek terms translated vanity and corruption can be also translated as decay, just like the second law of thermodynamics results in decay, which is the same as energetically winding down or decaying.

efm: And of course, in both cases, these verses would be post-diction, not prediction. Not a single person who knew of these verses in the thousands of years before the formulation of Big Bang cosmology was saying 'look here, this is clearly telling us the universe is expanding/winding down'
.

Click to expand...

True, but the Bible told us to study His other "book", Nature, to learn more about Him and His written word, and now that we have studied it, we have learned the correct meaning of these verses. But since these concepts have been in the bible all along, it actually IS a prediction by His word. Just because the writers didn't know about it at the time doesn't mean that the Author who inspired them didn't know it.

Ed1wolf said:

Just prior to the singularity, there is nothing detectable.



No, you dont need to remain silent. You can logically say that there is a Cause since the universe has all the characteristics of an effect. While we dont know for certain, we know as much as we know anything else in this universe. You know as much about a chair that you are getting ready to sit in, prior to sitting in it, whether you think it will hold your weight. And we can also keep searching to discover how the Cause did it.



I didn't say it was a law of physics, it is a law of logic. It is logical reasoning. Without which science is impossible and we never could have discovered those laws you mention.


See above how the evidence says otherwise. Almost all physicists agree that matter came into existence at the Big bang, not from other matter. Read the Nov. 2007 issue of Natural History article by Dr. Donald Goldsmith.


I dont deny we COULD be wrong but so far all the evidence points in that direction and it is increasing every month.



The Hebrew term translated stretching in these verses actually means "an ongoing continuous stretching". The universe appears to be a canopy to an ancient Hebrew, but he never knew that it could stretch continuously until this was confirmed by modern science. Also, a tent or canopy is a flat surface with no physical center, just like the universe. And yet God had this information in there all along. You do know that the writer of the Koran "borrowed" many concepts from the Bible, dont you?



The greek terms translated vanity and corruption can be also translated as decay, just like the second law of thermodynamics results in decay, which is the same as energetically winding down or decaying.


True, but the Bible told us to study His other "book", Nature, to learn more about Him and His written word, and now that we have studied it, we have learned the correct meaning of these verses. But since these concepts have been in the bible all along, it actually IS a prediction by His word. Just because the writers didn't know about it at the time doesn't mean that the Author who inspired them didn't know it.

Click to expand...

I will ask a second time. What are the characteristics by which we can determine that something is an effect?

Belk said:

It's math, not a theory. Perhaps you should consider how the fact that you can not support your fantastic claims reflect upon your witness?

Click to expand...

God doesn't rely on my witness, every single elect person will end up in heaven after they die and every reprobate person will end up in hell so all is well that ends well.

quatona said:

Be that as it may - when you asked "Why would God...?" you were appealing to common sense (as though you considered it relevant), not to your alleged special knowledge.

Click to expand...

There's no such thing as common sense, it's just another one of those false fabrications by the same people who want you to believe that everything came from nothing. Can you see how pathetic that crap is???

Dan1988 said:

I don't think you can say "God din't want death for humanity" since nothing happens in Gods universe unless He allows it. He obviously allowed death to happen because He planned our salvation before the world was created.

Click to expand...

He allowed it to happen but He did not desire it to happen. And He allowed it in order to destroy evil forever.

quatona said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, God did not want death for humanity originally, it only came about because of our rebellion. So death is a necessary evil for the Christian worldview, but this is not true for atheistic worldview, it is actually a good thing for humanity as a whole.

qua: So necessary things don´t have to be considered good. Your original argument (in which you submitted that what´s necessary for evolution must therefore be considered good) is moot.

Click to expand...

No, because for atheists death was necessary from the beginning. According to the Christian worldview death was not necessary originally, it was the consequence of a very bad act. As long as we did not commit that act, death would have never existed for humans. But for the atheist death was required for us to exist and is STILL required.

Dan1988 said:

God doesn't rely on my witness, every single elect person will end up in heaven after they die and every reprobate person will end up in hell so all is well that ends well.

Click to expand...

Don't tell me, let me guess. You are one of the elect?