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The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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Ed1wolf

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Again; such a suspicious reply would probably get the entire premises searched resulting in your death as well as those you were hiding

Maybe, maybe not. The same thing could happen if you lie. But given that God honors those who don't, the probability would be lower for those who don't lie.


ken: I doubt that really happened. Otherwise you have to ask yourself how come God didn't work such miracles for those in the Concentration camps


Actually, if you have ever read any of the survivor's stories, some of them are pretty miraculous.
 
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Ken-1122

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Maybe, maybe not. The same thing could happen if you lie. But given that God honors those who don't, the probability would be lower for those who don't lie.

I disagree. If you lied to the Gestapo (as many heroes did back then) you had far less chances of them searching your house than if you responded in an evasive way.

Actually, if you have ever read any of the survivor's stories, some of them are pretty miraculous.
I didn’t read the survivors stories, but I did read history, and according to history, a lot more of those miracles were needed

BTW what did you think of that video I posted?
 
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Fantine

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In golf it's called a handicap.
In bowling it's called a handicap.

These games recognize that some people come to the game with far more advantages than others, and if you want a level playing field, you give those with fewer advantages some extra points.

If golf courses and bowling alleys recognize this, should not God, the designer of golf courses and bowling alleys? Should the crack baby shuttled around in foster homes all his life be judged by God the same way that the child of ordained ministers homeschooled and nurtured in spirituality is?

We can objectively define an action as a "sin," but we also need to estimate the individual culpability of each person. Some bear greater responsibility than others. A merciful God takes that into consideration.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Why do you say “given the circumstances” God would Immediately forgive you? Does God forgive some lies quicker than others? Is he quick to forgive some lies, and slow to forgive others, or does God consider all lies equal.
No, all lies are sins but not all lies are equally sinful. Lying in order to cover up another sin is much worse than lying so you can save someone's life. God understands that in certain circumstances there is much more pressure to lie so something good can happen and He takes that into consideration in His judgements.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
No, what makes it irrational is that you believe that humans should be treated differently from other animals. If evolution is true, then no species should be treated any differently than any other. It is objectively irrational to do so. It is based on your sentimental feelings for your own species. There is no objectively rational basis to your morality unlike Christian morality which is based on the rationally objective existence of God's moral character.

ken: Do you even know what the theory of evolution is? If so, explain why according to this theory we should not treat humans any better than any other animal.
Why do you eat cows and not people?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Actually the "steady State theory was an alternative to the Big Bang theory; but was never as popular. I think the idea that the Universe is eternal was based on speculation.
Not pure speculation, the believers in the SS theory were highly educated and intelligent scientists. But then as we learned more, the evidence all started pointing toward a universe with a beginning and an end, just as the bible teaches. Now in order to avoid the theistic implications some are trying to claim that multiverses have always existed but most of the evidence does not support that either.
 
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Ken-1122

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Why do you eat cows and not people?
Because cows are made out of beef, and beef is delicious! Now care to answer my question?

Not pure speculation, the believers in the SS theory were highly educated and intelligent scientists. But then as we learned more, the evidence all started pointing toward a universe with a beginning and an end, just as the bible teaches. Now in order to avoid the theistic implications some are trying to claim that multiverses have always existed but most of the evidence does not support that either.
The problem with Christians who claim scientists are just now learning what the bible has always taught, is the bible has been the same for hundreds of years, yet nobody ever looked in the Bible and made these claims until Science discovered it. Then after it is announced by science, Christians look in the bible for something that can be interpreted as this newly scientific discovery, and proclaimed it was in the Bible all the time!
The bible is written in such a way that no matter your agenda, there is a scripture that can be interpreted to support it. Example: Luke 4:5 suggests the earth is the shape of a sphere, but then Revelations 7:1 speaks of the 4 corners of the earth suggesting the earth is flat. So when Christians proclaim newly discovered scientific theories were in the Bible all the time, unless they were making these claims before the scientists were, I dismiss their claims
 
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Ed1wolf

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This is something that you and I will never agree on,
I will take that as a tacit admission that you were unable to refute the fact that Hitler was not a Christian.


ken: my point is; I think it is foolish for you to claim that Atheism or a lack of theistic belief is what lead to the holocaust when there were far more theists in Germany than atheists at the time. The citizens of Germany cooperated with what the Nazis were doing at the time and that’s why they were able to kill so many people

No, my point was not that atheism directly led to it, but rather the main slippery slope that led to it was the belief in subjective morality which atheists, pantheists (which was what Hitler was), and liberal "Christians" (which most Germans were) all believe in, rather than objective morality like orthodox Christianity teaches and upon which Christian principle based nations like the USA at one time and sometimes still does believe in.


ken: BTW what did you think of the video I posted on post #741?
Typical atheistic superficial and out of context interpretation of the Bible.
 
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Ken-1122

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I will take that as a tacit admission that you were unable to refute the fact that Hitler was not a Christian.
I presented sufficient evidence that Hitler was Christian. Obviously due to your agenda you refused to accept the obvious. Arguing over it anymore is a waste of time because you will never get me to accept a lie, and I will never get you to accept the truth

No, my point was not that atheism directly led to it, but rather the main slippery slope that led to it was the belief in subjective morality which atheists, pantheists (which was what Hitler was), and liberal "Christians" (which most Germans were) all believe in, rather than objective morality like orthodox Christianity teaches and upon which Christian principle based nations like the USA at one time and sometimes still does believe in.
First of all, Germany was not an atheist nation; most of its citizens who allowed this to happen were Christian. Trying to blame that on Atheists is absurd

Second; this idea that all Atheists believe morality is subjective, that none believe in objective morality shows your ignorance about those who don’t believe in God. Then you actually have the audacity to judge us based on your ignorance.

A Case For Secular Morality: Objective Morality Without God
Typical atheistic superficial and out of context interpretation of the Bible.
What was out of context?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Actually, if you have ever read any of the survivor's stories, some of them are pretty miraculous.

ken: I didn’t read the survivors stories, but I did read history, and according to history, a lot more of those miracles were needed
The survivor's stories ARE history. That is how we get most of history, people telling us what happened. God never promised that He would rescue everybody, but everything happens for a reason. We dont always know why at the time or even 75 years later. But we will probably learn in the next life.
 
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Ken-1122

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The survivor's stories ARE history. That is how we get most of history, people telling us what happened. God never promised that He would rescue everybody, but everything happens for a reason. We dont always know why at the time or even 75 years later. But we will probably learn in the next life.
Perhaps for you, but the reason those things happened is obvious to me. Waiting for a next life to understand isn't necessary.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Because cows are made out of beef, and beef is delicious! Now care to answer my question?

If humans tasted just like beef would you eat them then?

ken: The problem with Christians who claim scientists are just now learning what the bible has always taught, is the bible has been the same for hundreds of years, yet nobody ever looked in the Bible and made these claims until Science discovered it. Then after it is announced by science, Christians look in the bible for something that can be interpreted as this newly scientific discovery, and proclaimed it was in the Bible all the time!
Actually the ancient Hebrews have always believed that the universe had a definite beginning. But there are other things in the bible that the people that wrote them didn't fully understand at the time. But now that we have learned things from God's other book, Nature, we can more correctly understand and interpret His written book, the bible. Such as its teaching that the universe is expanding. The biblical writers didn't understand this and did not believe that the universe is expanding, but now we understand the verses that talk about the stretching of the heavens like a tent, means the ongoing expansion of the universe, confirming what science has discovered.



ken: The bible is written in such a way that no matter your agenda, there is a scripture that can be interpreted to support it.

No, not when interpreted in the grammatico-historical context.

ken: Example: Luke 4:5 suggests the earth is the shape of a sphere, but then Revelations 7:1 speaks of the 4 corners of the earth suggesting the earth is flat.

Four corners is a metaphor for the four geographic directions of the earth, it is not meant literally. The term is used even today by writers all the time that plainly know the earth is round.

ken: So when Christians proclaim newly discovered scientific theories were in the Bible all the time, unless they were making these claims before the scientists were, I dismiss their claims
See above about how Gods other book, Nature, helps us to interpret the Bible.
 
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Ken-1122

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If humans tasted just like beef would you eat them then?
That’s sick! What’s wrong with you?

Actually the ancient Hebrews have always believed that the universe had a definite beginning.
The Universe as we know it had a beginning. If we consider the singularity that expanded to become the Big Bang the Universe, they can’t say it had a beginning.

But there are other things in the bible that the people that wrote them didn't fully understand at the time. But now that we have learned things from God's other book, Nature, we can more correctly understand and interpret His written book, the bible.
Oh so now nature is God’s other book? Well according to nature, Evolution is a real. Now how come the most vocal opponents against Evolution are those who follow God?

Such as its teaching that the universe is expanding. The biblical writers didn't understand this and did not believe that the universe is expanding, but now we understand the verses that talk about the stretching of the heavens like a tent, means the ongoing expansion of the universe, confirming what science has discovered..
The expansion of the Universe could hardly be compared to stretching a tent. And why would someone write something they don’t understand or know about?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
I will take that as a tacit admission that you were unable to refute the fact that Hitler was not a Christian.
I presented sufficient evidence that Hitler was Christian.


ken: Obviously due to your agenda you refused to accept the obvious. Arguing over it anymore is a waste of time because you will never get me to accept a lie, and I will never get you to accept the truth

Again having pictures taken of someone in front of a Catholic Church and talking to priests is hardly evidence that the person is a Catholic Christian. While quoting people that worked with him and childhood friends plainly state that he hated Christianity and quotes of his own words saying that Christianity is wrong and is a religion for the weak and is hurting Germany is FAR stronger evidence.

Ed1wolf said:
No, my point was not that atheism directly led to it, but rather the main slippery slope that led to it was the belief in subjective morality which atheists, pantheists (which was what Hitler was), and liberal "Christians" (which most Germans were) all believe in, rather than objective morality like orthodox Christianity teaches and upon which Christian principle based nations like the USA at one time and sometimes still does believe in.

ken: First of all, Germany was not an atheist nation; most of its citizens who allowed this to happen were Christian. Trying to blame that on Atheists is absurd
Most Germans were heretical liberal "Christians" who believe in subjective morality, THAT is the primary cause of the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. I didn't say it was atheism, though most atheists share that belief with them.

ken: Second; this idea that all Atheists believe morality is subjective, that none believe in objective morality shows your ignorance about those who don’t believe in God. Then you actually have the audacity to judge us based on your ignorance.
I didn't say ALL atheists, I said most. Most of the ones I have debated DO.

No, this article is still subjective. It is based on reducing suffering and pain for humans. How do they know that suffering and pain is bad for humans? Why try to reduce suffering and pain? According to evolution, suffering and pain is good, it advances evolution. Also why spend so much more time on reducing suffering and pain for humans but causing it in other species by eating them? There is nothing special about humans according to evolution, humans are cows are dogs are rats are cockroaches.

Ed1wolf said:
Typical atheistic superficial and out of context interpretation of the Bible.

ken: What was out of context?
Almost all of it. They left out the fact that all humans deserve to die at birth, so if we get to live past that God is showing us great mercy and kindness.
 
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Ken-1122

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Most Germans were heretical liberal "Christians" who believe in subjective morality, THAT is the primary cause of the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust.
History disagrees with you.

I didn't say ALL atheists, I said most. Most of the ones I have debated DO.
You said:

my point was not that atheism directly led to it, but rather the main slippery slope that led to it was the belief in subjective morality which atheists, pantheists, and liberal "Christians" all believe in”

Those were your exact words. Sounds to me like you were saying all in those groups.

No, this article is still subjective. It is based on reducing suffering and pain for humans. How do they know that suffering and pain is bad for humans?
It doesn’t matter how they know, the point is, that is their moral base. Just as your God is your moral base, that is theirs.

Why try to reduce suffering and pain? According to evolution, suffering and pain is good, it advances evolution. Also why spend so much more time on reducing suffering and pain for humans but causing it in other species by eating them? There is nothing special about humans according to evolution, humans are cows are dogs are rats are cockroaches.
If you really believe that, you are very ignorant about evolution.

Almost all of it. They left out the fact that all humans deserve to die at birth, so if we get to live past that God is showing us great mercy and kindness.
If your religion taught you that all babies deserve to die, that killing babies is justice; I feel sorry for you.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
If humans tasted just like beef would you eat them then?

ken: That’s sick! What’s wrong with you?
Why is it sick? Why is it wrong to eat humans but not cows?

Ed1wolf said:
Actually the ancient Hebrews have always believed that the universe had a definite beginning.

ken: The Universe as we know it had a beginning. If we consider the singularity that expanded to become the Big Bang the Universe, they can’t say it had a beginning.
The singularity IS the beginning. Almost all cosmologists agree that the universe had a beginning. And if something has a beginning then it is an effect and needs a Cause.

Ed1wolf said:
But there are other things in the bible that the people that wrote them didn't fully understand at the time. But now that we have learned things from God's other book, Nature, we can more correctly understand and interpret His written book, the bible.

ken: Oh so now nature is God’s other book?
The Bible has always taught that we can learn more about Him from nature. It is nothing new. Remember "the heavens declare the glory of God" And "consider the lilies of the field" and etc.

ken: Well according to nature, Evolution is a real. Now how come the most vocal opponents against Evolution are those who follow God?
No, evolution is just a theory and has never been empirically observed. It is just a historical extrapolation of microevolution which is a fact but macroevolution has never been observed or proven.

Ed1wolf said:
Such as its teaching that the universe is expanding. The biblical writers didn't understand this and did not believe that the universe is expanding, but now we understand the verses that talk about the stretching of the heavens like a tent, means the ongoing expansion of the universe, confirming what science has discovered.

ken: The expansion of the Universe could hardly be compared to stretching a tent.
Yes, it can. In the biblical description the writer uses the Hebrew word for an ongoing and constant stretching unlike an ordinary tent. This matches what the universe is doing exactly.

ken: And why would someone write something they don’t understand or know about?
Because they were inspired by God to do so, for future readers to understand the Divine origin of the scriptures and come to the realization that the Christian God actually does exist and created this universe.
 
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Ken-1122

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Why is it sick? Why is it wrong to eat humans but not cows?
Remember an earlier conversation when I spoke of having an emotional connection to a fellow human that I don’t have with a dog, thus I consider human life more valuable than a dog’s life? Well that same line of logic applies to humans vs cows as well.

The singularity IS the beginning. Almost all cosmologists agree that the universe had a beginning. And if something has a beginning then it is an effect and needs a Cause.
But they don’t claim anything prior to the singularity.

No, evolution is just a theory and has never been empirically observed. It is just a historical extrapolation of microevolution which is a fact but macroevolution has never been observed or proven.
Evolution is more than extrapolation; it is a result of the study of nature.

Yes, it can. In the biblical description the writer uses the Hebrew word for an ongoing and constant stretching unlike an ordinary tent. This matches what the universe is doing exactly.
There is a big difference between stretching and expanding; stretching is to expand despite restrictive forces; the expansion of the Universe is because there are no restrictive forces working against

Because they were inspired by God to do so, for future readers to understand the Divine origin of the scriptures and come to the realization that the Christian God actually does exist and created this universe.
And how does being inspired by God allows them to write about something they don’t understand or know about?
 
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Strathos

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Remember an earlier conversation when I spoke of having an emotional connection to a fellow human that I don’t have with a dog, thus I consider human life more valuable than a dog’s life? Well that same line of logic applies to humans vs cows as well.

I care about my dog a lot more than I do about most people.
 
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