The problem of evil

[Hikarifuru]

Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that there is no God? Can you prove it? Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that the universe was created by nothing, from nothing, for absolutely no reason? Can you prove it? If you do not know or cannot prove it, you have to have "faith" in science and your own understanding to believe it. To believe in the scientific "theories" on the origins of the universe requires "faith".

no... it does not take faith for me to says there's no gremlin under my bed because such an idea undermines reason itself. God and gremlins are the same stuff, fears hopes dreams and fairy tales

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Actually they do, cats and dogs have famously risked their well being to take care of their children and their owners. Not all creatures do good things obviously but it's a very basic thing that yes creatures do survive better if they help take care of their group.

Yes, I did state there are few exceptions. However, in general, goodness is a weakness in the wild.

 

[amariselle]

So you don't actually know what you're talking about...

Here's a really simple example of things scientists are TRYING to figure out.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/01/20-big-questions-in-science

I didn't say science isn't trying to figure out ANYTHING anymore, I said that there are certain things they have already claimed are absolute fact, and they present these claims as indisputable truth in multiple places in the public arena, every single day. You really need to read what I've written more carefully.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If I did those exact same things I'd go to jail for murder. Doublestandard much?

Do you know the difference from "killing" and "murdering"? How would you define the two?

 

[amariselle]

no... it does not take faith for me to says there's no gremlin under my bed because such an idea undermines reason itself. God and gremlins are the same stuff, fears hopes dreams and fairy tales

Now isn't that an overly simplistic and dismissive claim. Fair enough if it helps you sleep at night. At least if you choose to label God and a gremlin as the same thing you avoid actually having to ask honest questions about life and meaning etc. Convenient if you ask me.

 

[amariselle]

This life is the only one anyone can demonstrate exists. If you want to believe in another life on faith, I have no problem with that, but you can not demonstrate this other life is real in any objective way.

So tell us, how has any dependence on science cost many people their lives?

And, has science been able to; cause many people to live a longer more healthy life and saved lives?

Science has done both. It has enhanced life and lengthened it for some and it has also caused death and shortened life for others.

 

[bhsmte]

Science has done both. It has enhanced life and lengthened it for some and it has also caused death and shortened life for others.

Examples?

 

[bhsmte]

I didn't say science isn't trying to figure out ANYTHING anymore, I said that there are certain things they have already claimed are absolute fact, and they present these claims as indisputable truth in multiple places in the public arena, every single day. You really need to read what I've written more carefully.

And you were wrong about what science has claimed as absolute fact.

 

[Hikarifuru]

No, they are presented as FACT not theories. There are no "maybes" or uncertainties included in their claims at all. I have heard and witnessed their claims time and time again, and they NEVER admit that they don't actually know for certain that what they're saying is true.

I asked for examples and no scientific theories are not presented as fact but very well founded theories.

I did, and yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

No you didn't.

Hitler didn't want to serve anyone but himself, and that is exactly what he did. I'm quite convinced that at times he actually thought he WAS God, many people who lived through his horrors have said the same.

You're not actually bothering yourself with what Hitler actually said and did.

So now you think Jesus and Hitler were basically the same? Wow...

You seriously need to read the Bible again. Until you do, and until you actually understand what it says, then there is no way I can have a conversation with you about it.

Oh, and please understand the absurdity of your claims. You are suggesting that Hitler claimed he served a Jew. Hitler hated ALL Jews, he had a passionate, murderous hatred for each and every one of them. You do realize Hitler had absolutely NO desire to serve Jesus right? Actually, given the chance, he would have killed Jesus along with all the other Jews. No, Hitler served only HIMSELF.

No I don't need to read the bible again, Hitler did talk about being a Christian. Yahweh would have killed me if I had lived in the old testament and Jesus says he'll burn me in a stove one day so.... put it together for yourself. The bible says god is going to kill more people that Hitler ever hoped to and that he already has.

Oh the my system is better than your system argument....sorry, that defense proves nothing.

Oh, and your subjective idea of morality DOES allow people to hurt each other. A subjective morality allows people to do whatever they want to do. YOU may not think murder is right, but someone else does, and as long as that is THEIR subjective morality, then they are not doing anything wrong.

As I've repeatedly told you... my moral system is that those things are wrong. Subjective morality simply acknowledges that my feelings are the basis. My system isn't allowing other people to have different moral systems... its just acknowledging that I have nothing but my feelings. Your moral system would let god do anything he wants... that's bad and immoral.

Again with those personal insults and attacks. You really aren't making yourself look very credible, when instead of defending your position, you choose to insult someone who doesn't agree with you.

You clearly have not listened to a word I've said. I think murder and rape are wrong because morality is objective, there is an absolute standard we are ALL held to. You on the other hand think morality is something that is defined by each person individually. In that case rape and murder are not wrong, because all the person who does these things needs to say in defense of their actions, is that such actions fit THEIR subjective view of morality.

It seems you are getting angry, (perhaps that's why you are resorting to personal insults and attacks) not surprising really when you are trying hopelessly to defend the indefensible idea of a subjective morality while still saying there is an absolute standard of goodness, such as not hurting others. You've admitted that there are huge flaws in your own position. I hope you really stop and think about what you're saying, it makes no sense.

I have not insulted you and I have not attacked you... I said you are selfish and deluded if your basis of rape being wrong is because it tarnishes gods image rather than how destructive to people those things are.

I have told you over and over that murder and rape are wrong... I'm not sure why you can't get that. I then add that I use my feelings as the basis... and then you go back to my system making those things ok and it just makes no sense. You're just helpless to believe in right and wrong without a god and that would make you a sociopath if that ever happened. I'm sorry but it's true. I value humans, you value god's authority.

 

[amariselle]

Nailed it!!!

Yeah....not even close.

 

[bhsmte]

Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that there is no God? Can you prove it? Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that the universe was created by nothing, from nothing, for absolutely no reason? Can you prove it? If you do not know or cannot prove it, you have to have "faith" in science and your own understanding to believe it. To believe in the scientific "theories" on the origins of the universe requires "faith".

As I have said many times; I see no reason to believe there is a God, but I may be wrong.

In regards to a universe created from nothing, I would first ask you to demonstrate; nothing ever existed.

My philosophy is this; very few things can be known to be true with 100% certainty, but I can certainly conclude, something is extremely likely to be true based on the objective evidence to support the same. I agree with evolution based on the objective and scientific levels of evidence. I agree with other scientific theories, that all of us rely on each day of our lives, based on the evidence to support them.

I like to believe in as many true things as possible and the more objective evidence that is available, increases the chances, something is true.

That's how I roll.

 

[amariselle]

Examples?

Car accidents due to mechanical failure, shipwrecks due to design flaws, deaths due to reactions to medicine, (such as deaths caused by damage to the body from chemo or radiation)

And of course, we know that cars have also saved lives, as have ships, as has medicine. This is my point, science has done BOTH.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

no... it does not take faith for me to says there's no gremlin under my bed because such an idea undermines reason itself. God and gremlins are the same stuff, fears hopes dreams and fairy tales

Do you believe that there is no God? Can you prove it?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Loins are also social creatures. Do you know what happens to all the Cubs when a new male lion takes power?

That's actually an example of protecting your own genetic offspring. You seem to think I was saying animals never ever hurt each other. I wasn't I was saying it beneficial for creatures to take care of each other and that this is one reason why humans regularly sacrifice to help other people or accept shame and guilt to stay in other peoples good graces.

 

[bhsmte]

No, they are presented as FACT not theories. There are no "maybes" or uncertainties included in their claims at all. I have heard and witnessed their claims time and time again, and they NEVER admit that they don't actually know for certain that what they're saying is true.



I did, and yes, I do know what I'm talking about.



Hitler didn't want to serve anyone but himself, and that is exactly what he did. I'm quite convinced that at times he actually thought he WAS God, many people who lived through his horrors have said the same.



So now you think Jesus and Hitler were basically the same? Wow...

You seriously need to read the Bible again. Until you do, and until you actually understand what it says, then there is no way I can have a conversation with you about it.

Oh, and please understand the absurdity of your claims. You are suggesting that Hitler claimed he served a Jew. Hitler hated ALL Jews, he had a passionate, murderous hatred for each and every one of them. You do realize Hitler had absolutely NO desire to serve Jesus right? Actually, given the chance, he would have killed Jesus along with all the other Jews. No, Hitler served only HIMSELF.



Oh the my system is better than your system argument....sorry, that defense proves nothing.

Oh, and your subjective idea of morality DOES allow people to hurt each other. A subjective morality allows people to do whatever they want to do. YOU may not think murder is right, but someone else does, and as long as that is THEIR subjective morality, then they are not doing anything wrong.



Again with those personal insults and attacks. You really aren't making yourself look very credible, when instead of defending your position, you choose to insult someone who doesn't agree with you.

You clearly have not listened to a word I've said. I think murder and rape are wrong because morality is objective, there is an absolute standard we are ALL held to. You on the other hand think morality is something that is defined by each person individually. In that case rape and murder are not wrong, because all the person who does these things needs to say in defense of their actions, is that such actions fit THEIR subjective view of morality.

It seems you are getting angry, (perhaps that's why you are resorting to personal insults and attacks) not surprising really when you are trying hopelessly to defend the indefensible idea of a subjective morality while still saying there is an absolute standard of goodness, such as not hurting others. You've admitted that there are huge flaws in your own position. I hope you really stop and think about what you're saying, it makes no sense.

You are creating a strawman in regards to science. Likely, because it helps you hold onto your personal faith.

Does science scare you?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Do you believe that there is no God? Can you prove it?

I don't need to prove that gremlins are not real, considering them a possibility undermines the very logic you blunder to try to use. God is the same.

God is inherently illogical, you have to dismiss logic in order to consider it. God is the opposite of your attempt at logic. It's no different than claiming that you need to prove beyond doubt that I'm not god myself in disguise.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Please provide examples of the above.

And specifically, when has science presented "absolute facts" in regards to the origin of life?

I will await these specific examples, from scientific sources.

"Life originated from inorganic matter." Science cannot prove it, test it, or even recreate it. Yet if you don't believe in God, you have to have faith that it is true.

 

[bhsmte]

Car accidents due to mechanical failure, shipwrecks due to design flaws, deaths due to reactions to medicine, (such as deaths caused by damage to the body from chemo or radiation)

And of course, we know that cars have also saved lives, as have ships, as has medicine. This is my point, science has done BOTH.

Bad science does not cause car accidents, bad design and improper use of science causes failure.

In regards to chemo, science tells us in advance chemo has side effects, but when someone has terminal cancer, it is worth those side effects to use that treatment.

 

[bhsmte]

"Life originated from inorganic matter." Science cannot prove it, test it, or even recreate it. Yet if you don't believe in God, you have to have faith that it is true.

No faith required, just an examination of the available evidence.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The need to eat is objective, that eating is GOOD is subjective, it's an opinion based on a desire regardless of how unavoidable that desire is.

Self sacrifice IS subjectively considered good and we DO just decide for ourselves to do it.

Forgiven for what you WANT to be forgiven for, I never said the desire to be forgiven is actually a good thing, I said it's something we want because it does make us feel better.

When people give everything up to help others, there is a reason they are doing that, they feel like they need to, it's self serving too, it allows them to believe they are good and just, it can also ensure the survivability of their loved ones which is also a human need.

I spent most of my life as a Christian and around Christians, even preaching the gospel as a Christian. I know a lot about Christianity, I even attended bible college to become ordained as a minister and I still remember a lot of what I learned.

Yes the bible does say that very few find the path to life and that he will burn the rest of humanity in a fire. It is also historically accurate to say that an extremely small percentage of the humans that ever lived have been Christians.

Sorry, which legal jurisdiction are you talking about?

A lot of us live in different jurisdictions, anyway.