The problem of evil

[Dave Ellis]

One has the moral responsibility to fix themselves.
You can't fix others, even if you caused the damage.

How is that relevant to my argument?

 

[Locutus]

How do we measure social justice?

The universally recognised standard is free high quality education and free high quality health care for all, with good welfare infrastructure. The highly secular nations come out clear leads in this regard. Add in environmental responsibility and other 'non-human' things and they leave other western nations well behind.

 

[Locutus]

You can't fix a murderer or the dead. You can only pray they fix themselves.

the dead? are you really going to drag this way out into the left field?

 

[Locutus]

However, the forgiveness granted by the church is still totally irrelevant. You didn't really address my point.

Agreed. Religious 'forgiveness' is simply a self-applied exemption from apparently unbearable guilt. We don't get that. We have to live with the complete guilt package - no relief, no halving of the burden.

As to your second sentence above ... que?

 

[Resha Caner]

western (European) 'morality' is primarily the product of Norse, Germanic, Roman, Brit, and Greek cultural influences.

No doubt those are in the mix in different proportions in different places along with the influences of Christianity.

the 'premise' is that ethics (or morality) are simple survival mechanisms, evolved and enculturated.

That would be your premise. I don't know what LM is proposing.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Agreed. Religious 'forgiveness' is simply a self-applied exemption from apparently unbearable guilt. We don't get that. We have to live with the complete guilt package - no relief, no halving of the burden.

As to your second sentence above ... que?

Sorry, that last bit shouldn't have been in there. I misunderstood your response!

 

[Dan Bert]

Skywriting. From my point of view I know the world is perfect. There are no such things as "good luck". "bad luck" or "Accidents". Also no "Coincidences" (NCIS Gibbs rule 39) There is nothing for me to fix, to heal. The world works exactly as God intended even in its fallen state. And this cause life experiences for each of us that will benefit us in the next world.

Knowledge that this world is perfect and that God is responsible for every details of my life has increased trust and faith in God. It also helps to remove fears. If a man lives sensibly and take normal precautions than nothing will happen because of our choosing. For example if I were in Afghanistan, and I choose to go play in the minefields then the Lord will let me experience what's it's like to be in a explosion. But if for some reasons I happened to find myself by accident in a minefield, I might cross it totally without being blown up as God did not choose this to be one of my life experiences. That is how it works. The world is perfect but we may chose to try and fix it according to what seems good to my vision. My vision if it were to win out, you might not be happy with it. And I might not be happy happy if your vision were to win out. Each one of us has a vision of what we think is a perfect world. Lucky for all of us, God is still running things.


Dan

The first question, is everything perfect? No. If yo are currently walking and God is walking beside you, then yes. You are in His domain and you are in Heaven. Just as Adam was. This is not Heaven. God is not walking here.

This is the place we ended up when removed from the Garden and the gate was closed.
This place is more similar to Hell than Heaven.

9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found.11 Since everything will be dissolved in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness…

This is God's plan that we see the evil here and ask God to take us back. But God is not in charge here because this is not Heaven.

 

[Dan Bert]

I speak mostly for the man kingdom...which the man is made in the image of God. For man suffering exist for two purposes to learn obedience and for purification. The suffering for purification has a beginning, a middle and a ending. Suffering because of sins, take us to grave before the initial appointed time. As it is written, God shall shorten the days of the wicked.

dan

So if obedience is required for suffering to be avoided, and if animals are naturally obedient, why have they not avoided suffering? You seem determined not to answer this question.

 

[Dan Bert]

I know It is hard to conceive, that even in this fallen state, the world obeys perfectly the will of God and everything that is happening is right on schedule. I did not get to this point in my Spirituality overnight. It took many years before I learned of this, then could accept this and progress to the knowledge stage that it is also true. Everything that happens is for our benefits and God uses all things to shape and polish us. The fallen world with its diseases, afflictions, wicked men, dangerous animals, insects provide God with nearly an infinite number of life experiences perfectly fitted for each one of us.

Dan

I can't do a better job of making fun of the "best of all possible worlds" idea than Voltaire, so I'll just point you to read Candide instead. But really? Everything is perfect?

 

[bhsmte]

I know It is hard to conceive, that even in this fallen state, the world obeys perfectly the will of God and everything that is happening is right on schedule. I did not get to this point in my Spirituality overnight. It took many years before I learned of this, then could accept this and progress to the knowledge stage that it is also true. Everything that happens is for our benefits and God uses all things to shape and polish us. The fallen world with its diseases, afflictions, wicked men, dangerous animals, insects provide God with nearly an infinite number of life experiences perfectly fitted for each one of us.

Dan

How can you demonstrate; the world obeys perfectly, the will of God?

 

[Locutus]

No doubt those are in the mix in different proportions in different places along with the influences of Christianity.

That would be your premise. I don't know what LM is proposing.

Actually they ARE the mix. But yes, Christianity is in the mix, to a more or less degree depending on location. It had a firmer hold, earlier, in Britain for example. It's one of many influences. If any one or several could be considered predominant it would probably be Norse and Greco-Roman, followed closely by Celt.

 

[Locutus]

That would be your premise. .

No, it's not my premise. It's the science. Bring your anthropology up to speed.

 

[Locutus]

The suffering for purification has a beginning, a middle and a ending. Suffering because of sins, take us to grave before the initial appointed time. As it is written, God shall shorten the days of the wicked.

dan

This makes me feel ill.

 

[bhsmte]

No, it's not my premise. It's the science. Bring your anthropology up to speed.

Indeed. Why we have evolved to be social beings.

 

[bhsmte]

I speak mostly for the man kingdom...which the man is made in the image of God. For man suffering exist for two purposes to learn obedience and for purification. The suffering for purification has a beginning, a middle and a ending. Suffering because of sins, take us to grave before the initial appointed time. As it is written, God shall shorten the days of the wicked.

dan

Is this why 9 million children die each year before the age of five, because they are wicked?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Incidentally, I applaud you on the use of J Carter. A very fine human being, and the best President you guys ever had, or may ever have.

Well, maybe best president emeritus anyway.

 

[bhsmte]

But not all do. And many do 'whatever they can' without first demanding abdication from guilt via supernatural pardon.

Incidentally, I applaud you on the use of J Carter. A very fine human being, and the best President you guys ever had, or may ever have.

Mother T though, you can keep.

Why do you think Carter, was the best president?

 

[FireDragon76]

You're missing my point.

My point is if those people realize they've done wrong and want to lead a better life, the only forgiveness that matters is what their victims would be willing to offer up.

Being harsh with people that have wronged you is not a wise thing to do because we are all ultimately sinners before God, we have all wronged God. That's what Jesus' parable of the unforgiving servant is about.

Of course making amends to people you have wronged is generally a good idea. But demanding that they do so, is not in keeping with the grace that Christians have been given.

 

[FireDragon76]

What do you mean by a "better life"? Most people participating in churches seem to be happier, they have access to social support and a network of friends, at the very least. Let's not look at religious belief in the abstract here, and let's not generalize from your own experience on the matter.

The fact is, this thread, like many others, is degenerating into anti-religious soundbites that have been repeated for centuries, and are just as problematic today as they were centuries ago.

 

[Locutus]

Well, maybe best president emeritus anyway.

hah ... good point!